I believe we are offering Wilshere a pay cut.

[SWv2]

You have to hand it to us, we operate in a rather unique world of utter mental-ness and complete disdain for how football works.

:hehe:

[Burney]

You have to hand it to us, we operate in a rather unique world of utter mental-ness and complete disdain for how football works.

:hehe:

Oh, well done us! :clap: Hopefully, he understands that this is an invitation to fück off elsewhere.

[Ash]

You have to hand it to us, we operate in a rather unique world of utter mental-ness and complete disdain for how football works.

:hehe:

He's injured for about three years out of four. Who will give him a payrise, a first team place, and a guarantee of winning the league?

[SWv2]

Oh, well done us! :clap: Hopefully, he understands that this is an invitation to fück off elsewhere.

It is alleged of course.

Not that his agent or team need to leak such stories as if they are unhappy with the offer they simply court new employers, which quite frankly I would if I were them.

[IUFG]

You have to hand it to us, we operate in a rather unique world of utter mental-ness and complete disdain for how football works.

:hehe:

you've got to admire The Arsenal's balls on this one.
Could only be bettered by a 'pay as you play' contract.

[SWv2]

He's injured for about three years out of four. Who will give him a payrise, a first team place, and a guarantee of winning the league?

But he is 100% fit now and ready to play in our first team, very difficult to penalise him for something which may or may not occur in the future and may or may not be of his making.

If there is a serious underlying medical issue different, though based on his first team presence I assume there is not.

As for a pay rise I don’t know what he earns but I expect some or many would be willing to offer this on a free transfer.

As for first team place I don’t think that is guaranteed with us, it certainly should not be, but it could well be elsewhere.

As for winning the league we both know there is no club in England who can offer a better route to this success than us.

[Burney]

But he is 100% fit now and ready to play in our first team, very difficult to penalise him for something which may or may not occur in the future and may or may not be of his making.

If there is a serious underlying medical issue different, though based on his first team presence I assume there is not.

This is the thinking that has led us to be paying him millions for doing fück all for years, sw.

[SWv2]

This is the thinking that has led us to be paying him millions for doing fück all for years, sw.

We have paid millions to loads of players for doing fúck all for years, reserve players, non first 11 players. It's football I'm afraid.

He has now regained fitness, proven his fitness, however you want to term it.

This is not like a Diaby where the lad was fúcked and was never un-fúcked. He is fit and as before unless there is a serious underlying medical condition then he is arguably no more likely to incur another long-term injury as any other player.

I just can’t see how we can choose to play him as we are, and then sit down with him and say we think you’re too high risk. If he is high risk fair enough, fúck him out the window.

[World's End Stella]

We have paid millions to loads of players for doing fúck all for years, reserve players, non first 11 players. It's football I'm afraid.

He has now regained fitness, proven his fitness, however you want to term it.

This is not like a Diaby where the lad was fúcked and was never un-fúcked. He is fit and as before unless there is a serious underlying medical condition then he is arguably no more likely to incur another long-term injury as any other player.

I just can’t see how we can choose to play him as we are, and then sit down with him and say we think you’re too high risk. If he is high risk fair enough, fúck him out the window.

Given nature of his injuries I don't think it is unreasonable to think they might be behind him.

And maybe it's me, but I thought he has looked heads and shoulders above the rest of the team recently and - more importantly - the sort of midfielder we need i.e. he actually plays in midfield.

And no, he shouldn't ever play next to that useless Welsh tw@t. :-)

[Burney]

We have paid millions to loads of players for doing fúck all for years, reserve players, non first 11 players. It's football I'm afraid.

He has now regained fitness, proven his fitness, however you want to term it.

This is not like a Diaby where the lad was fúcked and was never un-fúcked. He is fit and as before unless there is a serious underlying medical condition then he is arguably no more likely to incur another long-term injury as any other player.

I just can’t see how we can choose to play him as we are, and then sit down with him and say we think you’re too high risk. If he is high risk fair enough, fúck him out the window.

Yes, but this is a rot we need to stop. Wilshere is injury prone and I can think of very few injury prone players who stop being injury prone and go on to have uninterrupted careers. I'm happy to see us being a bit more ruthless.

[Peter]

Given nature of his injuries I don't think it is unreasonable to think they might be behind him.

And maybe it's me, but I thought he has looked heads and shoulders above the rest of the team recently and - more importantly - the sort of midfielder we need i.e. he actually plays in midfield.

And no, he shouldn't ever play next to that useless Welsh tw@t. :-)

Agreed. Given how hopelessly **** the rest of our midfield are we need to keep JAck- even if he only plays ten games a season.

It is not as if we are going to be terribly attractive to a host of top players. There are five better options just in england.

[Peter]

Yes, but this is a rot we need to stop. Wilshere is injury prone and I can think of very few injury prone players who stop being injury prone and go on to have uninterrupted careers. I'm happy to see us being a bit more ruthless.

That ruthlessness needs to start by getting rid of a dreadful manager, not getting rid of our best midfielder.

Let someone competent start making the ruthless decisions.

[Burney]

That ruthlessness needs to start by getting rid of a dreadful manager, not getting rid of our best midfielder.

Let someone competent start making the ruthless decisions.

He isn't our best midfielder. That's just sentimental böllocks. Get rid and start again.

[IUFG]

He isn't our best midfielder.

Correct.

Quite clearly that honour is bestowed upon Iwobi. Jeezus H ****ing Christ.

[Peter]

He isn't our best midfielder. That's just sentimental böllocks. Get rid and start again.

Aside from Cazorla, who is dead, he is- by a mile actually, although only because the others are stunningly mediocre or, in the case of Ramsey, incapable of actually playing in midfield.

[Burney]

Aside from Cazorla, who is dead, he is- by a mile actually, although only because the others are stunningly mediocre or, in the case of Ramsey, incapable of actually playing in midfield.

His record for us says otherwise.

[Ash]

Aside from Cazorla, who is dead, he is- by a mile actually, although only because the others are stunningly mediocre or, in the case of Ramsey, incapable of actually playing in midfield.

Ramsey is better in a three-man midfield, I reckon. At the moment Jack is looking like we need to get him signed up again, at least to avoid having to bring in about twelve new players in the next couple of years.

[redgunamo]

[QUOTE=Ash;4195474]twelve new players ../QUOTE]

:cloud9: :cloud9:

[SWv2]

Aside from Cazorla, who is dead, he is- by a mile actually, although only because the others are stunningly mediocre or, in the case of Ramsey, incapable of actually playing in midfield.

Come now Pedro, a modicum of restraint here please coupled with some sort of knowledge of the game and/or position.

Ramsey is either playing with a) no tactical restriction or instruction or b) playing with no tactical restriction or instruction within a midfield combination which is devoid of order or balance.

To say he simply cannot play is a nonsense.

[World's End Stella]

Come now Pedro, a modicum of restraint here please coupled with some sort of knowledge of the game and/or position.

Ramsey is either playing with a) no tactical restriction or instruction or b) playing with no tactical restriction or instruction within a midfield combination which is devoid of order or balance.

To say he simply cannot play is a nonsense.

He didn't say he couldn't play - he said he couldn't play in midfield. And given that he is 27 years old and we have yet to see him ever prove that he could play there, it seems a fair view imo.

[Pokster]

He didn't say he couldn't play - he said he couldn't play in midfield. And given that he is 27 years old and we have yet to see him ever prove that he could play there, it seems a fair view imo.

Surely depends on what your view of a midfield player is :shrug: It seems he carries out instructions form his manager to a tee, scores plenty of goals and covers the ground better than others in that position. Seems to me that he can play midfield but perhaps the other players around him are the ones that need changing?

[PSRB]

you've got to admire The Arsenal's balls on this one.
Could only be bettered by a 'pay as you play' contract.

I believe it sort of is, if he stays fit then the contract will actually be a considerable improvement on his current one

[redgunamo]

I believe it sort of is, if he stays fit then the contract will actually be a considerable improvement on his current one

Have you bought Theo yet?

[World's End Stella]

Surely depends on what your view of a midfield player is :shrug: It seems he carries out instructions form his manager to a tee, scores plenty of goals and covers the ground better than others in that position. Seems to me that he can play midfield but perhaps the other players around him are the ones that need changing?

His average over the past 3 seasons in the league is 4 goals and 3.7 assists per season, that is a rather generous definition of 'plenty'. And given that he has shown himself to be an utter liability defensively (I point you to the 4-0 defeat at Liverpool as one of many examples) if he isn't scoring them or creating them, what use is he?

And if by 'covers the ground better than others' you mean he endlessly pushes forward regardless of the situation and is slow to track back, then I agree with you. There are those that would question that this is a good thing, however. Me among them.

[Pokster]

His average over the past 3 seasons in the league is 4 goals and 3.7 assists per season, that is a rather generous definition of 'plenty'. And given that he has shown himself to be an utter liability defensively (I point you to the 4-0 defeat at Liverpool as one of many examples) if he isn't scoring them or creating them, what use is he?

And if by 'covers the ground better than others' you mean he endlessly pushes forward regardless of the situation and is slow to track back, then I agree with you. There are those that would question that this is a good thing, however. Me among them.

How many games has he played over that 3 season stat list? The Liverpool game you mention ( and this point has been poiinted out on TV) was that he was receiving instructions from the bench while the defensive cock up was happening. Not tracking back is certainly a less of a problem with him as it is with GX, who seems to let anyone who wants to run off him do it.
He pushes forward as that is what he has been instructed to do by AW, certainly during the second half of games.

[Peter]

Come now Pedro, a modicum of restraint here please coupled with some sort of knowledge of the game and/or position.

Ramsey is either playing with a) no tactical restriction or instruction or b) playing with no tactical restriction or instruction within a midfield combination which is devoid of order or balance.

To say he simply cannot play is a nonsense.

He is playing with the same tactical restriction or instruction as anyone else. That is not entirely relevant anyway. He refuses to play in midfield, or at least in either of the deeper central roles, because he does not want the ball from the back four and hates receiving it under pressure.

Once Ozil leaves Ramsey may well be fine in a role further forward. THat really doesnt help us with the two deeper roles which are clearly the problem, and where Jack is clearly the best option.

I hope that clarifies the situation as I see it. Happy to provide further information but I shall not be trading any mudslinging of the 'who knows best' variety. :)

[Peter]

His average over the past 3 seasons in the league is 4 goals and 3.7 assists per season, that is a rather generous definition of 'plenty'. And given that he has shown himself to be an utter liability defensively (I point you to the 4-0 defeat at Liverpool as one of many examples) if he isn't scoring them or creating them, what use is he?

And if by 'covers the ground better than others' you mean he endlessly pushes forward regardless of the situation and is slow to track back, then I agree with you. There are those that would question that this is a good thing, however. Me among them.

He covers plenty of ground, just not the ground he is supposed to be actually covering.

Not entirely his fault, he is just not suited to that role.

[Pokster]

His average over the past 3 seasons in the league is 4 goals and 3.7 assists per season, that is a rather generous definition of 'plenty'. And given that he has shown himself to be an utter liability defensively (I point you to the 4-0 defeat at Liverpool as one of many examples) if he isn't scoring them or creating them, what use is he?

And if by 'covers the ground better than others' you mean he endlessly pushes forward regardless of the situation and is slow to track back, then I agree with you. There are those that would question that this is a good thing, however. Me among them.

scores a goal every 7 PL games, gets a goal or assist on average every 3 and a bit games... seems that those are not bad stats for a midfield player

[redgunamo]

He covers plenty of ground, just not the ground he is supposed to be actually covering.

Not entirely his fault, he is just not suited to that role.

It's easy to work hard at things you're not actually supposed to be doing?

[Ash]

It's easy to work hard at things you're not actually supposed to be doing?

Definitely.

Much easier than working hard at things you are supposed to be doing.

[Peter]

scores a goal every 7 PL games, gets a goal or assist on average every 3 and a bit games... seems that those are not bad stats for a midfield player

Not too bad at all. Its the ****ing great big hole in midfield behind him that is the problem.

His ideal position is at the front of a midfield three. Unfortunately, we dont play like that and when we have done, Ozil plays there.

[Pokster]

Not too bad at all. Its the ****ing great big hole in midfield behind him that is the problem.

His ideal position is at the front of a midfield three. Unfortunately, we dont play like that and when we have done, Ozil plays there.

Which proves he can play in midfield (my original point), but isn't suited to the midfield that AW plays

[Peter]

Definitely.

Much easier than working hard at things you are supposed to be doing.

That is assuming he knows what he is supposed to be doing.

[redgunamo]

Definitely.

Much easier than working hard at things you are supposed to be doing.

This is not meant to be true of paid professionals though, otherwise what are they being paid for, what are they actually professional at? #WengerOut

[Peter]

Which proves he can play in midfield (my original point), but isn't suited to the midfield that AW plays

I clarified my stance on this above.

He isnt suited to anything that involves dropping deeper in possession, staying in position, protecting the shape of the midfield and back three/four, tackling.........

As I have said many times, I am not convinced he ever totally got over the injury, psychologically. Notice how JAck is the only midfielder who still keeps the ball long enough to draw in the opponent and ride the tackle....

[redgunamo]

That is assuming he knows what he is supposed to be doing.

As I say, if he doesn't, what are we paying him for then.

[redgunamo]

I clarified my stance on this above.

He isnt suited to anything that involves dropping deeper in possession, staying in position, protecting the shape of the midfield and back three/four, tackling.........

As I have said many times, I am not convinced he ever totally got over the injury, psychologically. Notice how JAck is the only midfielder who still keeps the ball long enough to draw in the opponent and ride the tackle....

It's complicated, isn't it. Jack is criticised for dwelling on the ball too long :-\

[IUFG]

It's complicated, isn't it. Jack is criticised for dwelling on the ball too long :-\

His style does tend to mean his ankles get kicked to ****. I'd criticise him for that too. :glassankledchav:

[Viva Prat Vegas]

Under Eddie Howe Jack learned to moderate when to commit fully to the tackle and when not to

[Peter]

It's complicated, isn't it. Jack is criticised for dwelling on the ball too long :-\

Its how you create space in midfield- and get your ankles/leg broken by clumsy ****s looking to 'get a foot in'

To be fair, you can see why Ramsey doesn't fancy it....

[Peter]

As I say, if he doesn't, what are we paying him for then.

To do what his manager asks of him.

[redgunamo]

To do what his manager asks of him.

:shrug: ".. can book the acts but He can't tell the acrobats which way to jump."

[Peter]

:shrug: ".. can book the acts but He can't tell the acrobats which way to jump."

You can lay down some informal guidelines....

[SWv2]

To do what his manager asks of him.

None of us know what the manager is asking him to do.

The fact that Wenger appears unable to create a sustainable functioning midfield hints at issues beyond the personnel.

One could argue the most functional and mutually beneficial partnership he has had in a decade or so was one that he arrived upon by complete and utter fluke as opposed to design and player management.

We can go round in circles all we want on midfield, then defence probably and have individual opinion on player’s ability and partnerships, I think the issue still comes down to the man at the top.

Chris Coleman at Wales was able to tactically take advantage of Ramsey’s strengths as a player and harness them into him being one of the reported stand out performers at the Euros, yet the same player comes back to N5 and many then argue he has no clue how to play.

[PSRB]

Have you bought Theo yet?

Yes, I look forward to meeting him.

and telling him that he really could have been so much better

[Peter]

None of us know what the manager is asking him to do.

The fact that Wenger appears unable to create a sustainable functioning midfield hints at issues beyond the personnel.

One could argue the most functional and mutually beneficial partnership he has had in a decade or so was one that he arrived upon by complete and utter fluke as opposed to design and player management.

We can go round in circles all we want on midfield, then defence probably and have individual opinion on player’s ability and partnerships, I think the issue still comes down to the man at the top.

Chris Coleman at Wales was able to tactically take advantage of Ramsey’s strengths as a player and harness them into him being one of the reported stand out performers at the Euros, yet the same player comes back to N5 and many then argue he has no clue how to play.

Yes, Coleman had the advantage of not having anybody better. Ramsey was allowed to play further forward where he is generally more effective/less dangerous.

I am in complete agreement re where the problem lies. We all know it. However, within that context I think when you look at the quality of players the midfield is where suffer. Nobody doubts that we have two decent strikers, and two decent players in Sanchez and Ozil. Not a lot wrong with our first choice centre backs or full backs, and our goalkeeper is ok unless you give away a penalty.

It is in that central midfield where we genuinely lack the right quality and balance. I dont think anyone would honestly describe Elneny as a world beater and Xhaka has put in some shocking performances..... that leaves the good (Jack), the bad (Ramsey) and the ugly (Cazorla, who is dead).

Put anyone in charge and they need to sign a midfielder......

[Ash]

Put anyone in charge and they need to sign a midfielder......

And to think that for years AW was panned for collecting technical midfielders.

[redgunamo]

And to think that for years AW was panned for collecting technical midfielders.

Precisely. Not proper ones.

[redgunamo]

You can lay down some informal guidelines....

Aren't you chaps always arguing that the guidelines are too informal by half already? Make up your minds, please.

[redgunamo]

Yes, I look forward to meeting him.

and telling him that he really could have been so much better

Yes, that's just about the right balance, I reckon. Just don't let Big Sam hear you :hehe:

[Ash]

Precisely. Not proper ones.

We'll bump this next week if Sir C is back.

[redgunamo]

We'll bump this next week if Sir C is back.

:hide: :hide:

[PSRB]

Yes, that's just about the right balance, I reckon. Just don't let Big Sam hear you :hehe:

Of course, Uncle Phil will no longer be my daughter's favourite Everton player :hehe:

[redgunamo]

Of course, Uncle Phil will no longer my daughter's favourite Everton player :hehe:

That's football! :hehe:

[Alberto Balsam Rodriguez]

Yes, I look forward to meeting him.

and telling him that he really could have been so much better

Can you teach him how to control a Football?