I am halfway through watching the excellent Ken Burns documentary on the US Civil War

[Peter]

We are up to the middle of 1863 and the Confederacy are winning :)

I think I am going to have to stop watching it here as it is about to get quite sad..... :(

[Ash]

We are up to the middle of 1863 and the Confederacy are winning :)

I think I am going to have to stop watching it here as it is about to get quite sad..... :(

Apparently the second one is about to start. #IndictMeToo

[Burney]

We are up to the middle of 1863 and the Confederacy are winning :)

I think I am going to have to stop watching it here as it is about to get quite sad..... :(

Yes, I'm forever watching that. One always forgets that the Union barely won a battle up to Gettysburg, but once they won that, it was basically all over bar the shouting.

[Peter]

Yes, I'm forever watching that. One always forgets that the Union barely won a battle up to Gettysburg, but once they won that, it was basically all over bar the shouting.

There is much to suggest that had Stonewall Jackson not been killed in a freak accident the month before then the South would have stood a far better chance at Gettysburg. THe hill they were five minutes too slow in taking because Lee's orders were misunderstood; had they taken the hill then the fateful charge the following day wouldn't have happened.

I stopped at the part where Shelby Foote says that every Southern boy is able to put himself in that field at 1pm, just before the charge and drink in the last moment where victory was still possible.....I had to turn it off and weep like a baby.. :cry:

That said, the situation at Vicksburg was dire and even victory at Gettysburg wasnt enough. He needed to draw Grant and his resources northwards to ensure that Vicksburg held and Gettysburg came too late- Vicksburg surrendered the following day.

[Burney]

There is much to suggest that had Stonewall Jackson not been killed in a freak accident the month before then the South would have stood a far better chance at Gettysburg. THe hill they were five minutes too slow in taking because Lee's orders were misunderstood; had they taken the hill then the fateful charge the following day wouldn't have happened.

I stopped at the part where Shelby Foote says that every Southern boy is able to put himself in that field at 1pm, just before the charge and drink in the last moment where victory was still possible.....I had to turn it off and weep like a baby.. :cry:

That said, the situation at Vicksburg was dire and even victory at Gettysburg wasnt enough. He needed to draw Grant and his resources northwards to ensure that Vicksburg held and Gettysburg came too late- Vicksburg surrendered the following day.

Yes. Friendly fire wasn't it for old Stonewall? Mind you, he struck one as less than amusing company, so no great loss.

I do love Shelby Foote's voice. Someone should have got him to do audiobooks of William Faulkner novels. He'd have been perfect.

To be honest, I don't think the south could ever have actually won militarily. However many battles they'd won, the sheer weight of industry, resources and men would have told eventually.

[Pokster]

Yes. Friendly fire wasn't it for old Stonewall? Mind you, he struck one as less than amusing company, so no great loss.

I do love Shelby Foote's voice. Someone should have got him to do audiobooks of William Faulkner novels. He'd have been perfect.

To be honest, I don't think the south could ever have actually won militarily. However many battles they'd won, the sheer weight of industry, resources and men would have told eventually.

The North always come out on top b

[Peter]

Yes. Friendly fire wasn't it for old Stonewall? Mind you, he struck one as less than amusing company, so no great loss.

I do love Shelby Foote's voice. Someone should have got him to do audiobooks of William Faulkner novels. He'd have been perfect.

To be honest, I don't think the south could ever have actually won militarily. However many battles they'd won, the sheer weight of industry, resources and men would have told eventually.

Stonewall was shot in the arm by his own troops while inspecting the battlefield after the battle. Ridiculous accident....

They could never have won the war completely on the battlefield and I think Lee knew this. His hope was to wage an aggressive war against the Union troops in the East and drive as far Northward as possible. If he could have destroyed that army then the picture would have changed drastically.

The greater issue of the Southern Cause was a loser from the start. The 'way of life' was doomed in the long term, as all backward, static social and economic systems are.

[eastgermanautos]

Yes. Friendly fire wasn't it for old Stonewall? Mind you, he struck one as less than amusing company, so no great loss.

I do love Shelby Foote's voice. Someone should have got him to do audiobooks of William Faulkner novels. He'd have been perfect.

To be honest, I don't think the south could ever have actually won militarily. However many battles they'd won, the sheer weight of industry, resources and men would have told eventually.

They didn't have to win militarily. They just had to cause the north to get bogged down indefinitely, persuading the northerners of the folly of pursuing their ends. Kind of a Vietnam-type deal, Tet Offensive.

I personally like William Tecumseh Sherman. Scorched earth, faggits.

[eastgermanautos]

They didn't have to win militarily. They just had to cause the north to get bogged down indefinitely, persuading the northerners of the folly of pursuing their ends. Kind of a Vietnam-type deal, Tet Offensive.

I personally like William Tecumseh Sherman. Scorched earth, faggits.

I like the Burns documentary, although I feel he over-relies on the Battle Hymn of the Republic. He plugs that song more than does a local radio station Taylor Swift.

[Burney]

Stonewall was shot in the arm by his own troops while inspecting the battlefield after the battle. Ridiculous accident....

They could never have won the war completely on the battlefield and I think Lee knew this. His hope was to wage an aggressive war against the Union troops in the East and drive as far Northward as possible. If he could have destroyed that army then the picture would have changed drastically.

The greater issue of the Southern Cause was a loser from the start. The 'way of life' was doomed in the long term, as all backward, static social and economic systems are.

Yes. In fact, there's also a strong argument that slavery retarded technological, economic and industrial development, since it meant that, rather than develop more efficient technology, they could just chuck manpower at the problem.

[Burney]

They didn't have to win militarily. They just had to cause the north to get bogged down indefinitely, persuading the northerners of the folly of pursuing their ends. Kind of a Vietnam-type deal, Tet Offensive.

I personally like William Tecumseh Sherman. Scorched earth, faggits.


Yes. The man who promised to 'Make Georgia howl' and very much did. Of course, his march to the sea was by any modern definition you care to name a massive war crime, but highly effective nonetheless.

[Ash]

Yes. In fact, there's also a strong argument that slavery retarded technological, economic and industrial development, since it meant that, rather than develop more efficient technology, they could just chuck manpower at the problem.

The same can be said for any economy dependent on low labour costs. One of the reasons this country has flat-lined on productivity is that there is no incentive to develop more efficient capital when there is an inexhaustible supply of cheap, imported labour.

[Sir C]

We are up to the middle of 1863 and the Confederacy are winning :)

I think I am going to have to stop watching it here as it is about to get quite sad..... :(

I've never been able to bring myself to have any interest in this grubby little conflict, fought between the child-like inhabitants of such a pointless shíthole. I mean really, who cares?

[SWv2]

There is much to suggest that had Stonewall Jackson not been killed in a freak accident the month before then the South would have stood a far better chance at Gettysburg. THe hill they were five minutes too slow in taking because Lee's orders were misunderstood; had they taken the hill then the fateful charge the following day wouldn't have happened.

I stopped at the part where Shelby Foote says that every Southern boy is able to put himself in that field at 1pm, just before the charge and drink in the last moment where victory was still possible.....I had to turn it off and weep like a baby.. :cry:

That said, the situation at Vicksburg was dire and even victory at Gettysburg wasnt enough. He needed to draw Grant and his resources northwards to ensure that Vicksburg held and Gettysburg came too late- Vicksburg surrendered the following day.

Sounds shíte to be fair.

I can recommend Thor Ragnorak at the cinema.

[Peter]

Yes. In fact, there's also a strong argument that slavery retarded technological, economic and industrial development, since it meant that, rather than develop more efficient technology, they could just chuck manpower at the problem.

A fact that seems obvious to us now but wouldn't have to them. Its the root cause of the civil war in the sense that slavery permitted the two parts of the country to grow so far apart economically over a century that so many areas of policy would divide them.

I read a rather hilarious piece about changing the name of a school from washington-Lee to just Washington. THe argument seemed to be that although Washington had owned slaves he had fought a war that wasnt treason and forged a democracy. Lee had fought a war of treason and had owned slaves.

Kind of stepped over the fact that the revolutionary war WAS an act of treason, and that the difference between revolution and treason is victory. He also forged a democracy that allowed slavery. Funnier still, almost all the slaves that Lee owned were acquired through marriage to.....Martha Washington's great grand daughter. He inherited the descendants of the same slaves Washington had owned....

But yeah, the first one is a hero and the second a slave-owning racist....

[Peter]

Sounds shíte to be fair.

I can recommend Thor Ragnorak at the cinema.

Thank you. I wont be partaking.

[Peter]

I've never been able to bring myself to have any interest in this grubby little conflict, fought between the child-like inhabitants of such a pointless shíthole. I mean really, who cares?

You have never been seduced by the charms of old Dixy?

The romance, the music, the whisky....terrible racism of course, but you cant have everything....

[Sir C]

You have never been seduced by the charms of old Dixy?

The romance, the music, the whisky....terrible racism of course, but you cant have everything....

Lynyrd Skynyrd, Elvis' American Trilogy, Johnny Cash, the Zac Brown Band? Certainly, these are charming consequences of whatever local unpleasantness the Land Of The (Un)Free put itself through. The details of this conflict seem to me, though, immaterial in all respects.

[Peter]

Lynyrd Skynyrd, Elvis' American Trilogy, Johnny Cash, the Zac Brown Band? Certainly, these are charming consequences of whatever local unpleasantness the Land Of The (Un)Free put itself through. The details of this conflict seem to me, though, immaterial in all respects.

Ah, I know why. Its because there are no planes involved. You only like war in the skies, don't you.

[Sir C]

Ah, I know why. Its because there are no planes involved. You only like war in the skies, don't you.

Lord no. What about Agincourt? Waterloo? Proper battles, between proper armies, about proper issues. Not grubby little untrained oiks firing pop guns at each other and missing. Rubbish.

[Peter]

Lord no. What about Agincourt? Waterloo? Proper battles, between proper armies, about proper issues. Not grubby little untrained oiks firing pop guns at each other and missing. Rubbish.

Slaughter in record numbers, Sir C. Plenty of claret.....

I dont think you can define 'proper issues' solely as wanting to vanquish the french (noble though that may be)

[Sir C]

Slaughter in record numbers, Sir C. Plenty of claret.....

I dont think you can define 'proper issues' solely as wanting to vanquish the french (noble though that may be)

Yes, but look what they've ended up with. They fought a war for that? :hehe:

No, the whole continent is best ignored, I would say.

[Burney]

Lynyrd Skynyrd, Elvis' American Trilogy, Johnny Cash, the Zac Brown Band? Certainly, these are charming consequences of whatever local unpleasantness the Land Of The (Un)Free put itself through. The details of this conflict seem to me, though, immaterial in all respects.

Hang on. I’m pretty sure I remember you dressed up in a Confederate uniform once, you massive racialist.

[Sir C]

Hang on. I’m pretty sure I remember you dressed up in a Confederate uniform once, you massive racialist.

:shrug: Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

[Burney]

The same can be said for any economy dependent on low labour costs. One of the reasons this country has flat-lined on productivity is that there is no incentive to develop more efficient capital when there is an inexhaustible supply of cheap, imported labour.

Hmmm. That argument is effectively countered by the Industrial Revolution, though, a.

We were unprecedentedly inventive whilst also paying the workers fúck all.

[Burney]

:shrug: Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

That’s right. There was a rather unfortunate moustache involved, wasn’t there? :hehe:

[Sir C]

That’s right. There was a rather unfortunate moustache involved, wasn’t there? :hehe:

Was there? I don't remember a moustache. It was over 10 years ago, I believe. The sword was good.

[Burney]

Was there? I don't remember a moustache. It was over 10 years ago, I believe. The sword was good.

Yes. You grew it special, I think.

Could you have done any damage with the sword?

[Herbert Augustus Chapman]

Yes. You grew it special, I think.

Could you have done any damage with the sword?

Could you two take your homosexualist semaphore to a private board. I'm sure the damage his 'sword' would have done to your a'hole would have been considerable b.

[Sir C]

Yes. You grew it special, I think.

Could you have done any damage with the sword?

Really? I have no memory of such a growth. Surely a stick on one would have been easier.

The impetuosity of youth, I suppose.

[Pokster]

Could you two take your homosexualist semaphore to a private board. I'm sure the damage his 'sword' would have done to your a'hole would have been considerable b.

Probably not now... b's ring has been severely damaged from constant buggerings while at private all boys school... and Sir C can't even get it up anymore

[Pokster]

Really? I have no memory of such a growth. Surely a stick on one would have been easier.

The impetuosity of youth, I suppose.

"Youth" :hehe:

[Ash]

Hmmm. That argument is effectively countered by the Industrial Revolution, though, a.

We were unprecedentedly inventive whilst also paying the workers fúck all.

I expect the difference is the net/option of welfare.

[SWv2]

Was there? I don't remember a moustache. It was over 10 years ago, I believe. The sword was good.

Fancy dress?

Blimey.

[Sir C]

Fancy dress?

Blimey.

Yes, my only experience of the genre, I think.

It was poor.

[Burney]

Yes, my only experience of the genre, I think.

It was poor.

I felt - and I hope that you don't take this the wrong way - that your uniform might have been a smidgeon better cut. :hide:

[Peter]

I expect the difference is the net/option of welfare.

That and the trade union movement.

[eastgermanautos]

A fact that seems obvious to us now but wouldn't have to them. Its the root cause of the civil war in the sense that slavery permitted the two parts of the country to grow so far apart economically over a century that so many areas of policy would divide them.

I read a rather hilarious piece about changing the name of a school from washington-Lee to just Washington. THe argument seemed to be that although Washington had owned slaves he had fought a war that wasnt treason and forged a democracy. Lee had fought a war of treason and had owned slaves.

Kind of stepped over the fact that the revolutionary war WAS an act of treason, and that the difference between revolution and treason is victory. He also forged a democracy that allowed slavery. Funnier still, almost all the slaves that Lee owned were acquired through marriage to.....Martha Washington's great grand daughter. He inherited the descendants of the same slaves Washington had owned....

But yeah, the first one is a hero and the second a slave-owning racist....

Well, don't you know a lot!

[Ash]

That and the trade union movement.

Yes, absolutely. I was going to say that as part of a longer post but suddenly got busy.

[eastgermanautos]

Yes, but look what they've ended up with. They fought a war for that? :hehe:

No, the whole continent is best ignored, I would say.

:nono: I have a soft spot for Quebec. Quebeqoise girls are not bad. French, mind, and yet physically robust because they live on the frontier.

[Peter]

Yes, absolutely. I was going to say that as part of a longer post but suddenly got busy.

So in a way, the union movement is a vital cog in the wheel of progress.