So that's it then, the UK is well and truly f*cked and it's time to emigrate

[World's End Stella]

according to what the Times describes as 'a centre-right think tank', 83 per cent of the public favour public ownership of water companies, 77 per cent of electricity and gas companies and 76 per cent of the railways.

Utterly astonishing.

:wave:

[Burney]

according to what the Times describes as 'a centre-right think tank', 83 per cent of the public favour public ownership of water companies, 77 per cent of electricity and gas companies and 76 per cent of the railways.

Utterly astonishing.

:wave:

Nationalisation is always a popular idea because everyone thinks the grass is greener on the other side. They imagine lower bills, tickets, etc, while getting the same or better service. The fact that it never, ever works out like that is only known by those who actually lived with nationalised utilities, etc.

[Ash]

according to what the Times describes as 'a centre-right think tank', 83 per cent of the public favour public ownership of water companies, 77 per cent of electricity and gas companies and 76 per cent of the railways.

Utterly astonishing.

:wave:

Good. Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out. :thumbup:

TfL is an example of what is on-the-whole a fairly decent local government-run enterprise, with a mixture of state and privately-owned components. It plans to provide a service to the public, rather than maximum profits to the owners, and does so quite well imo.

wd TfL. Shows that there can be an alternative to privatisation dogma.

[World's End Stella]

Nationalisation is always a popular idea because everyone thinks the grass is greener on the other side. They imagine lower bills, tickets, etc, while getting the same or better service. The fact that it never, ever works out like that is only known by those who actually lived with nationalised utilities, etc.

well, yeah, but surely more than 20% of the population is old enough to remember what is was like not to mention going to the IMF to bail out the country in no small part because of it?

I suppose maybe those that are are now senile. :-(

[Burney]

well, yeah, but surely more than 20% of the population is old enough to remember what is was like not to mention going to the IMF to bail out the country in no small part because of it?

I suppose maybe those that are are now senile. :-(

There's enough starry-eyed old lefties out there who willingly forget that it used to take a month to get a phone line put in, that you could by law only buy telephones from one source, that British Rail was absolutely fûcking abysmal, that British Leyland basically destroyed the car industry in this country for a generation, etc, etc.

People tend to believe what they want to believe rather than harsh realities.

Thankfully, nobody ever votes for a party on the basis of whether they want to nationalise shït or not.

[Ash]

There's enough starry-eyed old lefties out there who willingly forget that it used to take a month to get a phone line put in, that you could by law only buy telephones from one source, that British Rail was absolutely fûcking abysmal, that British Leyland basically destroyed the car industry in this country for a generation, etc, etc.

People tend to believe what they want to believe rather than harsh realities.

Thankfully, nobody ever votes for a party on the basis of whether they want to nationalise shït or not.

Agree that the old nationalised industries were rubbish, but natural monopolies as private concerns is a problem too. Take BT. Cùnts. And our rail network is a shambles. We should look around for examples of well-run state enterprises. The rail in France and Germany is nationalised isn't it? And cheaper and better, I gather, than ours.

[Burney]

Agree that the old nationalised industries were rubbish, but natural monopolies as private concerns is a problem too. Take BT. Cùnts. And our rail network is a shambles. We should look around for examples of well-run state enterprises. The rail in France and Germany is nationalised isn't it? And cheaper and better, I gather, than ours.

This is a common myth. Having travelled extensively on both German and French rail networks in the last month, I can assure you that there is nothing inherently better about them than their UK counterparts. As for cheaper, if you want to go somewhere slowly, you can do so cheaply. If you want to get there while you're still young, you pay through the nose for it.

[Monty92]

There's enough starry-eyed old lefties out there who willingly forget that it used to take a month to get a phone line put in, that you could by law only buy telephones from one source, that British Rail was absolutely fûcking abysmal, that British Leyland basically destroyed the car industry in this country for a generation, etc, etc.

People tend to believe what they want to believe rather than harsh realities.

Thankfully, nobody ever votes for a party on the basis of whether they want to nationalise shït or not.

On your last point, there was a Channel 4 debate between Brexiteers last night and the reason a couple of chaps in the audience gave for voting Leave was that they hoped the freed up monies (and renewed ability to decide how we want to spend it) would enable blanket nationalisation. One of them was a a self-confessed full blown socialist.

Made me wonder how many other Leave voters are also potential Corbyn voters at the next GE :-\

[Burney]

On your last point, there was a Channel 4 debate between Brexiteers last night and the reason a couple of chaps in the audience gave for voting Leave was that they hoped the freed up monies (and renewed ability to decide how we want to spend it) would enable blanket nationalisation. One of them was a a self-confessed full blown socialist.

Made me wonder how many other Leave voters are also potential Corbyn voters at the next GE :-\

This is no surprise. The Bennite left has always been anti-EU. :shrug:

[Luis Anaconda]

according to what the Times describes as 'a centre-right think tank', 83 per cent of the public favour public ownership of water companies, 77 per cent of electricity and gas companies and 76 per cent of the railways.

Utterly astonishing.

:wave:

Could have told you that years ago

[Pokster]

according to what the Times describes as 'a centre-right think tank', 83 per cent of the public favour public ownership of water companies, 77 per cent of electricity and gas companies and 76 per cent of the railways.

Utterly astonishing.

:wave:

Ahh well, every cloud.......

[Monty92]

This is no surprise. The Bennite left has always been anti-EU. :shrug:

Yes, but many on the Bennite left may not have voted for Labour for decades - now they have reason to with a pro-Brexit socialst leader.

I also think the enthusiasm for nationalisation has spread beyond militant leftists and is now shared by a broader section of the populace, which is worrying.

[Ash]

Could have told you that years ago

Any views on the Cherman rail system v Britain's?

[Luis Anaconda]

Any views on the Cherman rail system v Britain's?

Yes - on the whole I'm shocked that Berni's been on public transport. On the whole it is excellent here, but generally I've found it to be pretty good in the UK, too, for longer distances ie Edinburgh, going down to Cornwall. What I don't think you would get here is the debacle of Southern Rail which really isn't fit for business for example (though as I am sure someone will point out London and the south east and the number of people wanting to get around is something of an anomaly)

[SWv2]

according to what the Times describes as 'a centre-right think tank', 83 per cent of the public favour public ownership of water companies, 77 per cent of electricity and gas companies and 76 per cent of the railways.

Utterly astonishing.

:wave:

Sweet baby Jesus.

Utter ****ery.

[Burney]

Yes - on the whole I'm shocked that Berni's been on public transport. On the whole it is excellent here, but generally I've found it to be pretty good in the UK, too, for longer distances ie Edinburgh, going down to Cornwall. What I don't think you would get here is the debacle of Southern Rail which really isn't fit for business for example (though as I am sure someone will point out London and the south east and the number of people wanting to get around is something of an anomaly)

I would point out that the Southern Rail fiasco stems pretty much entirely from the unions resisting technological progress and attempting to keep people employed who are no longer needed, thus forcing up prices for the consumer.

On the whole, though, I'd agree with your summation. Neither significantly better nor worse. The one thing that's better in Germany is double-decker trains, which I assume we can't have because of our Victorian bridges being too low or whatever.

French trains, while very swish if you're on the (very expensive) TGV, are actually pretty old, tatty and slow on other routes.

[Luis Anaconda]

I would point out that the Southern Rail fiasco stems pretty much entirely from the unions resisting technological progress and attempting to keep people employed who are no longer needed, thus forcing up prices for the consumer.

On the whole, though, I'd agree with your summation. Neither significantly better nor worse. The one thing that's better in Germany is double-decker trains, which I assume we can't have because of our Victorian bridges being too low or whatever.

French trains, while very swish if you're on the TGV, are actually pretty old, tatty and slow on other routes.
Double decker trains are indeed ace. Haven't been on a French train in about 30years. Probably still the same

[Burney]

Yes, but many on the Bennite left may not have voted for Labour for decades - now they have reason to with a pro-Brexit socialst leader.

I also think the enthusiasm for nationalisation has spread beyond militant leftists and is now shared by a broader section of the populace, which is worrying.

This would be funny if it weren't so utterly terrifying.

23% of actual humans walking around out there freely want nationalised travel agents? Is this East Germany? Who even uses travel agents anymore? :hehe: :-(

753

[Burney]

Double decker trains are indeed ace. Haven't been on a French train in about 30years. Probably still the same

My experience last week was blighted because my train from Rostock to Hamburg was 10 minutes late. No big deal, you might think, but I'd had a hard couple of weeks and was finally heading home. I was set up in my seat upstairs with my bottle of beer and sandwich from the Crobag on the platform. I had everything neatly arranged for a nice, quiet trip. And then, 9 minutes after we're supposed to have left, I see a horde of school kids running up the platform. And naturally, they pile into my nice, quiet carriage, shouting the odds, running around, kicking seats, banging windows and generally being little cünts. Oh, I thought, maybe they'll get off before Hamburg? No. All the way to Hamburg Hauptbahnhof surrounded by the little shíts and their utterly ineffectual (and almost certainly communist) teachers.

I was fewmin and no mistake. :furious:

[Luis Anaconda]

My experience last week was blighted because my train from Rostock to Hamburg was 10 minutes late. No big deal, you might think, but I'd had a hard couple of weeks and was finally heading home. I was set up in my seat upstairs with my bottle of beer and sandwich from the Crobag on the platform. I had everything neatly arranged for a nice, quiet trip. And then, 9 minutes after we're supposed to have left, I see a horde of school kids running up the platform. And naturally, they pile into my nice, quiet carriage, shouting the odds, running around, kicking seats, banging windows and generally being little cünts. Oh, I thought, maybe they'll get off before Hamburg? No. All the way to Hamburg Hauptbahnhof surrounded by the little shíts and their utterly ineffectual (and almost certainly communist) teachers.

I was fewmin and no mistake. :furious:
Nationalised or privatised kids are still loud ****s I am afraid. Couple of times recently I have got off the ubahn when a class of the little ****ers have got on: German kids are especially noisy

[Peter]

On your last point, there was a Channel 4 debate between Brexiteers last night and the reason a couple of chaps in the audience gave for voting Leave was that they hoped the freed up monies (and renewed ability to decide how we want to spend it) would enable blanket nationalisation. One of them was a a self-confessed full blown socialist.

Made me wonder how many other Leave voters are also potential Corbyn voters at the next GE :-\

My word, did you not know this already?

[Ash]

This would be funny if it weren't so utterly terrifying.

23% of actual humans walking around out there freely want nationalised travel agents? Is this East Germany? Who even uses travel agents anymore? :hehe: :-(


You (and everyone else) use travel agents if you've ever booked a room with Expedia or booking.com or any of the other in the cartel of money-printers who cream off 20% of every hotel bill for doing eff-all apart from developing some booking software and barging in on a market share.

Now, they do an effective job in bringing hotels and customers together, but if there was ever a tech enterprise that could benefit all concerned by being collectivised it's that. Potentially - cheaper hotel stays and more money for the people that do the actual work to provide the service. Let's face it, no-one likes Mr 20% middle-man.

People overlook that those grey, dreary, nationalised industries were basically pre-modern as far as the information economy goes. There is a possibility that Socialism 2.0 might get a run-out in the coming decades, and why not? It doesn't have to be about dragging everyone down as the usual perception goes. After all, globalist capitalism is doing a decent job of dragging everyone down anyway. Marx said that socialism could only work from the basis of a very high level of productive forces, and neither feudal Russia or post-war Britain were at such a level.

I'm not saying that this is certain to happen, or that it would work, but it's possible that new ideas around collectivised investment will be explored in the future. Especially if capitalism can do nothing better than to bump along the bottom in between crashes, as it is currently doing.

[Monty92]

My word, did you not know this already?

Yes, of course I knew that being anti-EU was common among the hard left.

My point is that i think this sentiment (and, more to the point, what motivates it) has spread beyond the hard left to voters that could be swayed to give Corbyn their vote.

[Ash]

My word, did you not know this already?

He lives in a right-wing bubble, Peter, a safe-space where he virtue-signals his ideological superiority all day long and has little idea of how other people might think. The word 'nationalisation' triggers the poor snowflake and he comes out in sweats.

[Peter]

Yes, of course I knew that being anti-EU was common among the hard left.

My point is that i think this sentiment (and, more to the point, what motivates it) has spread beyond the hard left to voters that could be swayed to give Corbyn their vote.

You are worried that the centre of the Labour Party is becoming more left wing?

It is. But it wont last long. Nothing to worry about.

[Monty92]

You are worried that the centre of the Labour Party is becoming more left wing?

It is. But it wont last long. Nothing to worry about.

Really? Oh, good. So what's your vision of how it all comes crashing down?

[Monty92]

You (and everyone else) use travel agents if you've ever booked a room with Expedia or booking.com or any of the other in the cartel of money-printers who cream off 20% of every hotel bill for doing eff-all apart from developing some booking software and barging in on a market share.

Now, they do an effective job in bringing hotels and customers together, but if there was ever a tech enterprise that could benefit all concerned by being collectivised it's that. Potentially - cheaper hotel stays and more money for the people that do the actual work to provide the service. Let's face it, no-one likes Mr 20% middle-man.

People overlook that those grey, dreary, nationalised industries were basically pre-modern as far as the information economy goes. There is a possibility that Socialism 2.0 might get a run-out in the coming decades, and why not? It doesn't have to be about dragging everyone down as the usual perception goes. After all, globalist capitalism is doing a decent job of dragging everyone down anyway. Marx said that socialism could only work from the basis of a very high level of productive forces, and neither feudal Russia or post-war Britain were at such a level.

I'm not saying that this is certain to happen, or that it would work, but it's possible that new ideas around collectivised investment will be explored in the future. Especially if capitalism can do nothing better than to bump along the bottom in between crashes, as it is currently doing.

You're gonna vote for the **** again next time, aren't you :-(

[Peter]

He lives in a right-wing bubble, Peter, a safe-space where he virtue-signals his ideological superiority all day long and has little idea of how other people might think. The word 'nationalisation' triggers the poor snowflake and he comes out in sweats.

Call me a centre left **** if you like (and I certainly am) but there is a lot to be said for avoiding both traditional models of public and private ownership like the ****ing plague.

As you say, there are examples of shared and public-controlled initiatives that have proved successful. None of us want to go back to the old model of British Rail and BT. Even if we did, the biggest issues with these were largely around an approach to labour relations and employment practice that simply doesnt exist anymore.

A modern debate on this should focus on how a specific industry can be best run.

[Peter]

Really? Oh, good. So what's your vision of how it all comes crashing down?

Well...... A few years ago I could have told you exactly what would happen- another election, disastrous results, effigies of Corbyn burning etc......

Politics is so unpredictable at present I dont think anyone can tell you how things will turn out until Brexit is behind us. The rump of the Labour Party never shifts either way for long. My guess is that the longer the Brexit stuff goes on the more the rump of the party will want to focus on its core areas- jobs, the NHS and appealing to working class families/decent ordinary, law abiding folk etc.......

At present, Corbyn is doing a very good job of this because he is an unusual figure at an unusual time. He garners a degree of trust from this but that trust will erode gradually as he begins to act and think more like a conventional politician.

I cant promise you people wont still have a great deal of time for him by the next election and, given the climate, you have to say that election could be winnable, even for him.

Sod it, I think actually you should be a little worried. Just not too much. Also, even if he won, you know he isn't going to do any of this stuff, right? Much of it is impossible.

[Peter]

You're gonna vote for the **** again next time, aren't you :-(

Yes he is, as am I.

He really is a rather nice chap. Jorge said so.

[Monty92]

Well...... A few years ago I could have told you exactly what would happen- another election, disastrous results, effigies of Corbyn burning etc......

Politics is so unpredictable at present I dont think anyone can tell you how things will turn out until Brexit is behind us. The rump of the Labour Party never shifts either way for long. My guess is that the longer the Brexit stuff goes on the more the rump of the party will want to focus on its core areas- jobs, the NHS and appealing to working class families/decent ordinary, law abiding folk etc.......

At present, Corbyn is doing a very good job of this because he is an unusual figure at an unusual time. He garners a degree of trust from this but that trust will erode gradually as he begins to act and think more like a conventional politician.

I cant promise you people wont still have a great deal of time for him by the next election and, given the climate, you have to say that election could be winnable, even for him.

Sod it, I think actually you should be a little worried. Just not too much. Also, even if he won, you know he isn't going to do any of this stuff, right? Much of it is impossible.

I don't worry too much about the social policy stuff, for the reason you point out. But the cultural impact of a Corbyn government is frightening, though I acknowledge that the Tories are not much better in that regard.

They've already pledged to basically scrap the Prevent scheme. This is literally - and I do mean literally - pandering to actual Islamists who want us dead.

[Peter]

I don't worry too much about the social policy stuff, for the reason you point out. But the cultural impact of a Corbyn government is frightening, though I acknowledge that the Tories are not much better in that regard.

They've already pledged to basically scrap the Prevent scheme. This is literally - and I do mean literally - pandering to actual Islamists who want us dead.

I am far more familiar with the Prevent scheme than I would like to be. I can tell you honestly it is a complete and utter waste of time.

I dont know how you turn the tide of debate away from what you describe as pandering. It is way beyond a party issue. I think we are doomed to spending the rest of our lives waiting for the next claim from the next disadvantaged group.

[Monty92]

with huge numbers of Muslim pupils.

It's not a question of the scheme's effectiveness. The cause for concern is that the reason why it will probably be scrapped is purely and simply because Islamists keep saying it's islamophobic.

That is a huge problem in and of itself.



I am far more familiar with the Prevent scheme than I would like to be. I can tell you honestly it is a complete and utter waste of time.

I dont know how you turn the tide of debate away from what you describe as pandering. It is way beyond a party issue. I think we are doomed to spending the rest of our lives waiting for the next claim from the next disadvantaged group.

[Ash]

Call me a centre left **** if you like (and I certainly am) but there is a lot to be said for avoiding both traditional models of public and private ownership like the ****ing plague.

As you say, there are examples of shared and public-controlled initiatives that have proved successful. None of us want to go back to the old model of British Rail and BT. Even if we did, the biggest issues with these were largely around an approach to labour relations and employment practice that simply doesnt exist anymore.

A modern debate on this should focus on how a specific industry can be best run.

:nod:

FWIW: I am hardly a fan of the public sector as it exists, despite being at home to the notion of a mixed economy. I've never worked in it, and wouldn't want to, from what I've seen of the dull, turgid monoliths that are the health and education sectors.

[World's End Stella]

Call me a centre left **** if you like (and I certainly am) but there is a lot to be said for avoiding both traditional models of public and private ownership like the ****ing plague.

As you say, there are examples of shared and public-controlled initiatives that have proved successful. None of us want to go back to the old model of British Rail and BT. Even if we did, the biggest issues with these were largely around an approach to labour relations and employment practice that simply doesnt exist anymore.

A modern debate on this should focus on how a specific industry can be best run.

Out of interest, what is the approach to labour relations and employment practice that doesn't exist anymore?

[Pokster]

Out of interest, what is the approach to labour relations and employment practice that doesn't exist anymore?

To begin with you can't just sack someone becvause you feel like it......... most employers also have rules on how jobs are filled, so very little of the job for a mate that used to go on

[redgunamo]

To begin with you can't just sack someone becvause you feel like it......... most employers also have rules on how jobs are filled, so very little of the job for a mate that used to go on

That's interesting. I'm told the Eurotrash have spent the past decade and a bit strengthening firms' hand, making the job market more flexible, as it was felt workers had become too comfortable, too well-protected by law.

[Peter]

with huge numbers of Muslim pupils.

It's not a question of the scheme's effectiveness. The cause for concern is that the reason why it will probably be scrapped is purely and simply because Islamists keep saying it's islamophobic.

That is a huge problem in and of itself.

Whereas you and I know that the problem with the process is that it is nowhere near Islamophobic enough.

It is quite clearly about terrorism but focuses on extremism in the generic sense to avoid any sense of being considered anti-muslim. THe training we had gave you a laughable list of what can be considered 'extreme', including a belief in animal rights. This is ****ing absurd.

It is also a huge problem when it comes to free speech. Now there are curbs I am willing to accept on our freedom to voice opinions but not many. In an attempt to appear even handed when it comes to extremism the process I was put through was a potentially terrifying attempt to identify and ostracise the right to express all sorts of opinions.

There is a clear difference between those extreme views which advocate or incite harm against others and those that other people simply dont want to hear.

[Peter]

Out of interest, what is the approach to labour relations and employment practice that doesn't exist anymore?

Well, we used to have trade unions. They were these big, ghastly organisations (run by working class people) that did nothing but lobby for higher wages and shorter hours and made it virtually impossible to sack anyone.

THese unions used to 'hold the country to ransom'. Those were the days :)

[Peter]

:nod:

FWIW: I am hardly a fan of the public sector as it exists, despite being at home to the notion of a mixed economy. I've never worked in it, and wouldn't want to, from what I've seen of the dull, turgid monoliths that are the health and education sectors.

Nor am I. I am actually fairly happy for the private sector to run some industries. For example, I dont think public ownership is going to transform our railways. Not sure anything would.

That said, one of the biggest sells for private ownership is competition and the modern trend towards mergers can leave entire industries in the hands of one or two players. Private monopolies are the worst of all avenues imo

[redgunamo]

Whereas you and I know that the problem with the process is that it is nowhere near Islamophobic enough.

It is quite clearly about terrorism but focuses on extremism in the generic sense to avoid any sense of being considered anti-muslim. THe training we had gave you a laughable list of what can be considered 'extreme', including a belief in animal rights. This is ****ing absurd.

It is also a huge problem when it comes to free speech. Now there are curbs I am willing to accept on our freedom to voice opinions but not many. In an attempt to appear even handed when it comes to extremism the process I was put through was a potentially terrifying attempt to identify and ostracise the right to express all sorts of opinions.

There is a clear difference between those extreme views which advocate or incite harm against others and those that other people simply dont want to hear.

They're right though; there's not so much of a clear difference anymore, is there.

[World's End Stella]

Well, we used to have trade unions. They were these big, ghastly organisations (run by working class people) that did nothing but lobby for higher wages and shorter hours and made it virtually impossible to sack anyone.

THese unions used to 'hold the country to ransom'. Those were the days :)

Excellent, that's great news.

I'll let the people who couldn't make it to work because of Southern Trains know that it was all a big mistake.

Also, now that the unions run Labour again, you don't think that's a pretty ominous steps back towards the days you describe?

[Peter]

Excellent, that's great news.

I'll let the people who couldn't make it to work because of Southern Trains know that it was all a big mistake.

Also, now that the unions run Labour again, you don't think that's a pretty ominous steps back towards the days you describe?

No, I dont.

[Monty92]

Whereas you and I know that the problem with the process is that it is nowhere near Islamophobic enough.

It is quite clearly about terrorism but focuses on extremism in the generic sense to avoid any sense of being considered anti-muslim. THe training we had gave you a laughable list of what can be considered 'extreme', including a belief in animal rights. This is ****ing absurd.

It is also a huge problem when it comes to free speech. Now there are curbs I am willing to accept on our freedom to voice opinions but not many. In an attempt to appear even handed when it comes to extremism the process I was put through was a potentially terrifying attempt to identify and ostracise the right to express all sorts of opinions.

There is a clear difference between those extreme views which advocate or incite harm against others and those that other people simply dont want to hear.

Yes, but I consider this a bug not a feature of the scheme and doesn't necessarily mean it should be scrapped. And what could be innocuous opinion when uttered by one person could be a symptom of something more sinister if uttered by another. So if you hear a non-muslim express the view that terrorism is blow back for western foreign policy, you can be almost certain he is just a harmless lefty. But if it's a muslim saying it, it should rightly raise more suspicion (even if he's likely to be harmless too).

[Peter]

They're right though; there's not so much of a clear difference anymore, is there.

Yes, there is.

[Peter]

Yes, but I consider this a bug not a feature of the scheme and doesn't necessarily mean it should be scrapped. And what could be innocuous opinion when uttered by one person could be a symptom of something more sinister if uttered by another. So if you hear a non-muslim express the view that terrorism is blow back for western foreign policy, you can be almost certain he is just a harmless lefty. But if it's a muslim saying it, it should rightly raise more suspicions.

Its more than a bug. Its a complete lack of will on those responsible for it which renders the process toothless. This is a symptom of the pandering you mentioned. If the process is too scared to talk openly about islamic extremism how are the same people going to tackle it when they find it?

[World's End Stella]

No, I dont.

You don't think that Corbyn is indebted to the unions and that if by some horrible chance he were to actually become PM that he might pass pro-union legislation and/or the unions might feel more empowered because of him and his position?

I do.

[Peter]

You don't think that Corbyn is indebted to the unions and that if by some horrible chance he were to actually become PM that he might pass pro-union legislation and/or the unions might feel more empowered because of him and his position?

I do.

No, I dont. I do like the fact that you are scared of it though ;)

[Monty92]

Its more than a bug. Its a complete lack of will on those responsible for it which renders the process toothless. This is a symptom of the pandering you mentioned. If the process is too scared to talk openly about islamic extremism how are the same people going to tackle it when they find it?

My (albeit second hand) understanding of the scheme is that there IS a focus on Muslims. But there's also more focus than is necessary on other forms of extremism too, in order to level things up and avoid accusations of Islamophobia (which, of course, are forthcoming even if you fart too close to a Muslim).

[Burney]

My (albeit second hand) understanding of the scheme is that there IS a focus on Muslims. But there's also more focus than is necessary on other forms of extremism too, in order to level things up and avoid accusations of Islamophobia (which, of course, are forthcoming even if you fart too close to a Muslim).

Muslims know that if they can get rid of Prevent, it'll be the thin end of the wedge and they can basically close down any sort of scrutiny, surveillance or criticism by simply shouting 'Islamophobia'. That's why it's important it remains in place on a purely symbolic level.

The only reason I'd get rid of it and would be to replace it with mass internment.

[redgunamo]

Yes, there is.

Fair enough, if you say so. It's not my loved ones or I that are going to be blown up at a train station or supermarket.

[World's End Stella]

No, I dont. I do like the fact that you are scared of it though ;)

Wow, you live in a funny world. I guarantee you that people like McCluskey are over the moon about the possibility of Corbyn as PM.

Scared? F*cking right. I have no desire whatsoever to return to the 70s and the nights without electricity or heat and the country going bankrupt.

I do like the fact that you are looking forward to it though :-)

[redgunamo]

Wow, you live in a funny world. I guarantee you that people like McCluskey are over the moon about the possibility of Corbyn as PM.

Scared? F*cking right. I have no desire whatsoever to return to the 70s and the nights without electricity or heat and the country going bankrupt.

I do like the fact that you are looking forward to it though :-)

Just for the record, Henley-on-Thames was wonderful in the 70s.

[Peter]

Wow, you live in a funny world. I guarantee you that people like McCluskey are over the moon about the possibility of Corbyn as PM.

Scared? F*cking right. I have no desire whatsoever to return to the 70s and the nights without electricity or heat and the country going bankrupt.

I do like the fact that you are looking forward to it though :-)

You forgot rubbish piling up in the streets and the dead couldn't get buried. :D

The problem is it is you who thinks it is going to happen. As I dont, I cant possibly be looking forward to it. So your comeback doesnt work.

I win. As usual. Good old me :D

[Peter]

Fair enough, if you say so. It's not my loved ones or I that are going to be blown up at a train station or supermarket.

Exactly. So its none of your business ;)

[Burney]

Just for the record, Henley-on-Thames was wonderful in the 70s.

:cloud9: I remember. Many happy memories of playing in and around Fawley Bottom. Long bike rides to Hambleden for a picnic lunch. Sitting in the garden of the Drovers fending off goat attacks while mum and dad got shîtfaced inside and then drove us home. The good old days.

[redgunamo]

Exactly. So its none of your business ;)

It's exactly my business; the wife's Range Rover jones doesn't pay for itself.

[Peter]

It's exactly my business; the wife's Range Rover jones doesn't pay for itself.

Then you have a difficult conversation on the way :)

[redgunamo]

Then you have a difficult conversation on the way :)

She's German; all our conversations are difficult.

[Luis Anaconda]

She's German; all our conversations are difficult.

:hehe: so true