Len McCluskey on the election: "The whingers and whiners say we didn't win. I say we

[Burney]

did win."

What the fúck is wrong with these people?

Also, there's someone walking around the Conference with an actual Jeremy Corbyn icon. And that's without mentioning the fact that there appear to be hundreds of people walking around there openly displaying soviet iconography with no hint of shame.

Mad. These people are all fúcking mad. :snakehead:

751

[Peter]

did win."

What the fúck is wrong with these people?

Also, there's someone walking around the Conference with an actual Jeremy Corbyn icon. And that's without mentioning the fact that there appear to be hundreds of people walking around there openly displaying soviet iconography with no hint of shame.

Mad. These people are all fúcking mad. :snakehead:

751

It was a moral victory, b. Which is, of course, always an actual defeat.

[Burney]

It was a moral victory, b. Which is, of course, always an actual defeat.

Exceeding extremely low expectations is not a victory of any sort, p.

[World's End Stella]

It was a moral victory, b. Which is, of course, always an actual defeat.

It's only a moral victory if you believe a simplistic sound bite like 'the public have had enough of austerity' instead of the reality which is that Corbyn and Labour doing better than expected was the result of many factors and leaping to simplistic conclusions on the back of the result is a dangerous business.

The only moral victory really is that even Corbyn isn't so stupid that under the right circumstances he couldn't put up a decent showing.

I suppose Labour has that.

[Peter]

Exceeding extremely low expectations is not a victory of any sort, p.

That is exactly what it is. A victory- of sorts.

If you set up a market stall flogging fresh turds you should walk away very happy indeed if you manage to sell even one :)

[Burney]

It was a moral victory, b. Which is, of course, always an actual defeat.

Also, Paul Mason has just tweeted this :hehe:


I really advise my colleagues in the political press corps to listen to the conference. It's a breath of fresh air and reminds me of 1980

He does remember what happened to Labour in the 1980s, right?

Honestly, p, as much as these people irritate me, they must make you absolutely despair.

[Peter]

It's only a moral victory if you believe a simplistic sound bite like 'the public have had enough of austerity' instead of the reality which is that Corbyn and Labour doing better than expected was the result of many factors and leaping to simplistic conclusions on the back of the result is a dangerous business.

The only moral victory really is that even Corbyn isn't so stupid that under the right circumstances he couldn't put up a decent showing.

I suppose Labour has that.

There is a broader question here though. Over three elections, in 2010, 2015 and 2017, the Conservatives have twice failed to gain a majority and only once managed to squeeze very narrowly over the line. This is against a Labour Party held responsible for war and economic collapse, and then a Labour Party led by a leftie and which has been a laughing stock on here for the last few years.

Those three results over seven years suggest a distinct lack of appetite for the Conservatives and for austerity.

[Burney]

It's only a moral victory if you believe a simplistic sound bite like 'the public have had enough of austerity' instead of the reality which is that Corbyn and Labour doing better than expected was the result of many factors and leaping to simplistic conclusions on the back of the result is a dangerous business.

The only moral victory really is that even Corbyn isn't so stupid that under the right circumstances he couldn't put up a decent showing.

I suppose Labour has that.

On my good days I hope that Labour's electoral performance was to a large extent a rather misguided protest vote against Brexit and that it's a trick they're unlikely to be able to pull off twice. Most of those voting Labour either didn't know or deliberately ignored Labour's manifesto position on Brexit in order to get at the tories.

On my bad days I wonder if we might actually end up with a Corbyn government. :-(

[Burney]

There is a broader question here though. Over three elections, in 2010, 2015 and 2017, the Conservatives have twice failed to gain a majority and only once managed to squeeze very narrowly over the line. This is against a Labour Party held responsible for war and economic collapse, and then a Labour Party led by a leftie and which has been a laughing stock on here for the last few years.

Those three results over seven years suggest a distinct lack of appetite for the Conservatives and for austerity.


I think that underestimates quite how much the electoral boundaries in this country are weighted against the Tories, to be fair.

[Peter]

Also, Paul Mason has just tweeted this :hehe:



He does remember what happened to Labour in the 1980s, right?

Honestly, p, as much as these people irritate me, they must make you absolutely despair.

Its very much part of the game. I like the fact that party retains a conscience and an eye for its history. It is of course very frustrating to have such muppets in charge.

[Burney]

Its very much part of the game. I like the fact that party retains a conscience and an eye for its history. It is of course very frustrating to have such muppets in charge.

There's an eye for history as you put it, and then there's misty-eyed nostalgia for a period of utter political impotence and widespread failure as a political party. The fact that people like Mason can even express a sentiment like that surely tells you they're more interested in ideologically-pure opposition than in gaining power and doing things.

And that's the real problem with seeing 2017 as a victory, of course. It sets a limit on your ambitions and tells everyone you don't ever really expect to actually win.

[Peter]

There's an eye for history as you put it, and then there's misty-eyed nostalgia for a period of utter political impotence and widespread failure as a political party. The fact that people like Mason can even express a sentiment like that surely tells you they're more interested in ideologically-pure opposition than in gaining power and doing things.

And that's the real problem with seeing 2017 as a victory, of course. It sets a limit on your ambitions and tells everyone you don't ever really expect to actually win.

Well, the real problem with seeing it as a victory is that they lost, but I take your point.

They will see the result as re-shaping the political debate and dismissing the notion that the electorate should never be presented with a left wing manifesto. They also see it as a huge victory within the party, which it is.

Going forward, it is dangerous. I would like another election sooner rather than later.

[Monty92]

did win."

What the fúck is wrong with these people?

Also, there's someone walking around the Conference with an actual Jeremy Corbyn icon. And that's without mentioning the fact that there appear to be hundreds of people walking around there openly displaying soviet iconography with no hint of shame.

Mad. These people are all fúcking mad. :snakehead:

751

I guess they might compare it to losing 2-0 in the first leg of a European away tie and scoring a consolation in the last minute. In this scenario, defeat would feel like victory.

Or, they might just mean that the GE was the building block for victory next time round, which to be fair *might* be true.

[Ash]

I guess they might compare it to losing 2-0 in the first leg of a European away tie and scoring a consolation in the last minute. In this scenario, defeat would feel like victory.

Or, they might just mean that the GE was the building block for victory next time round, which to be fair *might* be true.

The thing is, JC got an absolute cùnting in the entire media, and from all parties including his own for about two years and still scored that away goal. Without knowing all voters' motives, I expect it was a combination of hope both from traditional labour voters that he might improve their lot, and from labour's new middle class core hoping that his pro-EU party would reverse Brexit.

While he has secured the latter, his betrayal of the former will be punished imo. The UKIP could well be back in the next GE.

[Monty92]

I think that underestimates quite how much the electoral boundaries in this country are weighted against the Tories, to be fair.

Labour's manifesto position was very deliberately worded to allow them to be creative with their position on Brexit. And of course because of the prevailing narrative that Brexit is going to be a disaster, many of the Leavers who ambivalently voted Labour last time round might now do so with even LESS caution, precisely BECAUSE of their softer position on Brexit.

[Monty92]

The thing is, JC got an absolute cùnting in the entire media, and from all parties including his own for about two years and still scored that away goal. Without knowing all voters' motives, I expect it was a combination of hope both from traditional labour voters that he might improve their lot, and from labour's new middle class core hoping that his pro-EU party would reverse Brexit.

While he has secured the latter, his betrayal of the former will be punished imo. The UKIP could well be back in the next GE.

You've got that confused, haven't you? If any Labour voters feel betrayed right now, it's the middle class.

[Burney]

The thing is, JC got an absolute cùnting in the entire media, and from all parties including his own for about two years and still scored that away goal. Without knowing all voters' motives, I expect it was a combination of hope both from traditional labour voters that he might improve their lot, and from labour's new middle class core hoping that his pro-EU party would reverse Brexit.

While he has secured the latter, his betrayal of the former will be punished imo. The UKIP could well be back in the next GE.

It seems to me that they've officially decided that the middle class core is more important to them than the traditional base. I guess they figure enough of the latter will vote for them (along with their muslim vote) to get them elected in former industrial towns, while the middle classes could actually help them gain seats from the tories - which is what they most need to do.

In other words, if the traditional Labour voters keep bovinely voting Labour regardless of Labour's policies, they're going to get royally screwed - and they're going to deserve it.

[Burney]

You've got that confused, haven't you? If any Labour voters feel betrayed right now, it's the middle class.

Eh? Labour's Brexit policy reversal has been instituted precisely to gain the votes of the pro-EU middle classes.

[Monty92]

It seems to me that they've officially decided that the middle class core is more important to them than the traditional base. I guess they figure enough of the latter will vote for them (along with their muslim vote) to get them elected in former industrial towns, while the middle classes could actually help them gain seats from the tories - which is what they most need to do.

In other words, if the traditional Labour voters keep bovinely voting Labour regardless of Labour's policies, they're going to get royally screwed - and they're going to deserve it.

But the young middle class will vote for Labour regardless. it's only their parents who probably aren't subjected to the peer pressure of social media who will often be Tory or swing voters.

[Burney]

But the young middle class will vote for Labour regardless. it's only their parents who probably aren't subjected to the peer pressure of social media who will often be Tory or swing voters.

My daughter won't. She won't say, of course, but I strongly suspect she voted Labour because of the tuition fees thing. The subsequent total backtrack on that policy has convinced her that Labour are not to be trusted.

[Monty92]

Eh? Labour's Brexit policy reversal has been instituted precisely to gain the votes of the pro-EU middle classes.

Eh? Their official position is still that we are leaving the single market. The only concession is that they are leaving all options open.

Hence why the middle class are still massively pissed off with Corbyn for his "betrayal"

[Monty92]

My daughter won't. She won't say, of course, but I strongly suspect she voted Labour because of the tuition fees thing. The subsequent total backtrack on that policy has convinced her that Labour are not to be trusted.

Well that's good news (and good for her), but I fear she's in a minority.

[Peter]

My daughter won't. She won't say, of course, but I strongly suspect she voted Labour because of the tuition fees thing. The subsequent total backtrack on that policy has convinced her that Labour are not to be trusted.

That was, without question, the stupidest thing they said and did. It was a ridiculous promise that drags us back to the dark ages of higher education acting as one big middle class subsidy. Totally unworkable, unaffordable and undesirable. It did prove one thing though- the principled, erstwhile left are not above a bit of cynical electioneering.

[PSRB]

My daughter won't. She won't say, of course, but I strongly suspect she voted Labour because of the tuition fees thing. The subsequent total backtrack on that policy has convinced her that Labour are not to be trusted.

Hasn't McDonnell said today that they will get rid of tuition fees? Along with a raft of other things that I have no idea how they going to finance?

[Monty92]

Hasn't McDonnell said today that they will get rid of tuition fees? Along with a raft of other things that I have no idea how they going to finance?

I imagine Burney means the retrospective repayment of fees for post-grads, which they back-tracked on.

[PSRB]

I imagine Burney means the retrospective repayment of fees for post-grads, which they back-tracked on.

Ah right. :thumbup:

[World's End Stella]

Eh? Their official position is still that we are leaving the single market. The only concession is that they are leaving all options open.

Hence why the middle class are still massively pissed off with Corbyn for his "betrayal"

Funny, could have sworn Corbyn on Andrew Marr yesterday said that Labour's position was that we should stay in the single market.

Mind you, he was talking in circles most of the time, anyway.

[Monty92]

Funny, could have sworn Corbyn on Andrew Marr yesterday said that Labour's position was that we should stay in the single market.

Mind you, he was talking in circles most of the time, anyway.

Only during the transitional period. After that, his priority is gaining tariff-free access to the single market, i.e. from outside of it.