So Jean-Claude Juncker has said that he wants the expansion of Schengen, the euro to

[Burney]

be compulsory, an end to vetoes and an EU army.

So in other words, an EU that it would be utterly impossible for the U.K. ever to rejoin even in the highly unlikely event that we wanted to?

Decent of him to settle things for us like that. Maybe we can all stop bickering about it now and move on?

[redgunamo]

be compulsory, an end to vetoes and an EU army.

So in other words, an EU that it would be utterly impossible for the U.K. ever to rejoin even in the highly unlikely event that we wanted to?

Decent of him to settle things for us like that. Maybe we can all stop bickering about it now and move on?

The Schengen-thing is inevitable, I think, likewise the euro; rather like opening the stable door after the horse has already bolted in, you might say. And I'm not sure Europe can actually afford an army, politically or otherwise. Unless that "army" is ISIS, I suppose.

He's just showing his desperation.

[Ash]

And I'm not sure Europe can actually afford an army, politically or otherwise. Unless that "army" is ISIS, I suppose.


lol

Well, the EU is a bit like the political wing of NATO, and ISIS is/was effectively a NATO proxy in Syria, but is now magically melting away to let the SDF get to the Deir-Azzor oil fields before the SAA - are ISIS just being handed new uniforms?

[Burney]

The Schengen-thing is inevitable, I think, likewise the euro; rather like opening the stable door after the horse has already bolted in, you might say. And I'm not sure Europe can actually afford an army, politically or otherwise. Unless that "army" is ISIS, I suppose.

He's just showing his desperation.

In a sense, I don't blame the EU lot. They're just doing what they've always said they wanted to do: destroy the nation state and replace it with a vast, centralised superstate run by a largely unelected bureaucracy - this neatly taking those pesky citizens and their feelings out of the equation. The people who irritate me are the UK-based EU advocates who have spent years denying that this is the case.

[redgunamo]

The people who irritate me are the UK-based EU advocates who have spent years denying that this is the case.

Well, quite naturally, this sort feels exactly the same way; that their fathers and grandfathers, and possibly even their great-grandfathers too, let them down, basically sold them off into wage-slavery. Or, at the very least, simply weren't interested in them.

And who's to say they don't have a point.

[Sir C]

lol

well, the eu is a bit like the political wing of nato, and isis is/was effectively a nato proxy in syria, but is now magically melting away to let the sdf get to the deir-azzor oil fields before the saa - are isis just being handed new uniforms?

egkb 131059z 1312/1321 25017kt 9999 sct035 tempo 1312/1317 26020g33kt prob30 tempo 1312/1320 8000 shra becmg 1317/1320 24007kt

[Ash]

egkb 131059z 1312/1321 25017kt 9999 sct035 tempo 1312/1317 26020g33kt prob30 tempo 1312/1320 8000 shra becmg 1317/1320 24007kt

Hopefully that means that the wind has dropped on the M4 by now, as Ms A is driving home from Wales.

[redgunamo]

lol

Well, the EU is a bit like the political wing of NATO

Not a bit of it! That's like calling your spoiled, lazy, petulant, ungrateful, entitled, greedy, loudmouthed, selfish, arrogant children the "political wing" of your household.

[Sir C]

Hopefully that means that the wind has dropped on the M4 by now, as Ms A is driving home from Wales.

18 kts at Cardiff, 22 at Heathrow, so it's dropped a lot. Might get gusty in showers, of course.

[World's End Stella]

be compulsory, an end to vetoes and an EU army.

So in other words, an EU that it would be utterly impossible for the U.K. ever to rejoin even in the highly unlikely event that we wanted to?

Decent of him to settle things for us like that. Maybe we can all stop bickering about it now and move on?

You do realize that this is the intellectual equivalent of the Remainers making the assumption that all the most dire consequences of Brexit will be realized and then using that assumption as a basis for criticizing it?

Why lower yourself to their level? :shrug:

[Ash]

Not a bit of it! That's like calling your spoiled, lazy, petulant, ungrateful, entitled, greedy, loudmouthed, selfish, arrogant children the "political wing" of your household.

What is Javier Solana doing these days anyway?

[redgunamo]

What is Javier Solana doing these days anyway?

Polishing all his awards and trophies somewhere, I suppose. Writing his memoirs perhaps. Slimy git.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

lol

Well, the EU is a bit like the political wing of NATO, and ISIS is/was effectively a NATO proxy in Syria, but is now magically melting away to let the SDF get to the Deir-Azzor oil fields before the SAA - are ISIS just being handed new uniforms?

Actually not really, or not any more. Merkel's dislike of Trump has had her questioning whether Europe can rely on the US and the US are more interested in the Far East than Europe at the moment.

Plus our Turkish allies are now buying Russian hardware.

All which goes to show there is a divergence between EU and NATO interests.

[redgunamo]

Actually not really, or not any more. Merkel's dislike of Trump has had her questioning whether Europe can rely on the US and the US are more interested in the Far East than Europe at the moment.

Plus our Turkish allies are now buying Russian hardware.

All which goes to show there is a divergence between EU and NATO interests.

Nothing to do with the Donald, imo. He's really only marginally less popular than any other American president there's ever been, so far as I can judge. Overall, we simply don't like Americans.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

Not true. The European chattering classes loved Obama.

[Ash]

Actually not really, or not any more. Merkel's dislike of Trump has had her questioning whether Europe can rely on the US and the US are more interested in the Far East than Europe at the moment.

Plus our Turkish allies are now buying Russian hardware.

All which goes to show there is a divergence between EU and NATO interests.

Fair point. Also I think that Germans might reasonably take exception to being forced to buy expensive US LNG because of the sanctions imposed for the (evidence-free) claims of Russian 'hacking' in the US election. Oh the irony of that accusation, from the most interferey country in the world.

[Burney]

You do realize that this is the intellectual equivalent of the Remainers making the assumption that all the most dire consequences of Brexit will be realized and then using that assumption as a basis for criticizing it?

Why lower yourself to their level? :shrug:

Errr, you realise that this stuff was said by the President of the EU Commission, right? In his State of the Union address? This is not conjecture or alarmism, this is the direction of travel desired at the highest level of the EU. Will all of it happen? Probably not. Will some of it happen? Yes, absolutely. Could we ever rejoin the EU if any of it happened? No, absolutely not.

[Sir C]

You do realize that this is the intellectual equivalent of the Remainers making the assumption that all the most dire consequences of Brexit will be realized and then using that assumption as a basis for criticizing it?

Why lower yourself to their level? :shrug:

But anyway, as I keep pointing out, none of this has anything to do with you. Kindly keep your foreign hooter out of our English business.

[Pokster]

But anyway, as I keep pointing out, none of this has anything to do with you. Kindly keep your foreign hooter out of our English business.

I thought you were Dutch, b is Irish and La is a nomad??

[Mo Britain less Europe]

Yes. The Europeans are now suspicious that many of these US-led sanctions are actually geared at giving US companies an advantage. There is a school of thinking in US politics that has always seen trade as an extension of warfare rather than a substitute.

[Sir C]

I thought you were Dutch, b is Irish and La is a nomad??

I'm as English as you. More so, actually, because I hail from our great capital, not some mosquito-infested northern bog. :vsign:

[redgunamo]

Not true. The European chattering classes loved Obama.

:shrug: They love me, too, but that has nothing to do with me being an American (I'm not).

[Mo Britain less Europe]

:shrug: They love me, too, but that has nothing to do with me being an American (I'm not).

Obama was POTUS. If all Brits disliked all Americans he would have been loathed as the representative of all things US.

[redgunamo]

Obama was POTUS. If all Brits disliked all Americans he would have been loathed as the representative of all things US.

I see what you mean, but this is slightly different; one is simply not allowed to dislike darkies.

[Pokster]

I'm as English as you. More so, actually, because I hail from our great capital, not some mosquito-infested northern bog. :vsign:

You are about as English as Haggis imo... just look at your name, you are a Dutchy and lucky to be allowed to stay here

[Sir C]

you are about as english as haggis imo... Just look at your name, you are a dutchy and lucky to be allowed to stay here


hate crime!

[Ash]

You are about as English as Haggis imo... just look at your name, you are a Dutchy and lucky to be allowed to stay here

Easy now, Poks. My German ancestor pitched up in Whitechapel in about 1830 and I have his name.

[World's End Stella]

Errr, you realise that this stuff was said by the President of the EU Commission, right? In his State of the Union address? This is not conjecture or alarmism, this is the direction of travel desired at the highest level of the EU. Will all of it happen? Probably not. Will some of it happen? Yes, absolutely. Could we ever rejoin the EU if any of it happened? No, absolutely not.

Despite the fact that you never stop going on about how undemocratic the EU is, it is a democratic body even if it isn't as democratic (for good reasons) as some would like it to be. The President of the EU Commission can think whatever he likes, unless Merkel et al (and that et al would include the British Prime Minister if we were staying in the EU) agree to it, it isn't going to happen.

We have no idea where the EU is really going over the next 5-10 years, there are simply too many variables and too many unknowns. To attempt to predict the direction and then use that prediction as a basis for the argument that Leave was correct is no different than someone assuming that the British economy will go in the toilet post Brexit and therefore criticizing the result of the referendum.

Both are intellectually disingenuous.

[Pokster]

hate crime!

But you will be allowed to stay here, as we are sych a loving nation.

WES can **** right off though. Yanks go home

[Ash]

I see what you mean, but this is slightly different; one is simply not allowed to dislike darkies.

No-one really likes Adebayor tbf.

[redgunamo]

No-one really likes Adebayor tbf.

I've heard nothing of him for years, to be honest. Who does he play for nowadays?

[Burney]

Despite the fact that you never stop going on about how undemocratic the EU is, it is a democratic body even if it isn't as democratic (for good reasons) as some would like it to be. The President of the EU Commission can think whatever he likes, unless Merkel et al (and that et al would include the British Prime Minister if we were staying in the EU) agree to it, it isn't going to happen.

We have no idea where the EU is really going over the next 5-10 years, there are simply too many variables and too many unknowns. To attempt to predict the direction and then use that prediction as a basis for the argument that Leave was correct is no different than someone assuming that the British economy will go in the toilet post Brexit and therefore criticizing the result of the referendum.

Both are intellectually disingenuous.

Well the advent of Qualified Majority Voting put paid to any idea that the Council of Ministers exerts ultimate control over the Commission, I'm afraid. And, of course, the veto is a weapon used more in threat than reality, so it's something of a paper tiger. Equally, since the Commission is the only body capable of proposing legislation, they do have rather a lot of influence over the direction of travel. It is therefore highly disingenuous to pretend that the mission statement of the ideologically-driven body that controls the legislative direction of the EU is anything but highly significant.

But as I say - and this is where the real disingenuousness is at play - this is not news. The EU have their mission of a borderless, centrally-controlled, united European superstate literally written on the walls of their buildings in Strasbourg and Brussels. To pretend the EU was ever anything else or ever had any other intention was the single greatest lie the British political class has ever perpetrated.

[Luis Anaconda]

Well the advent of Qualified Majority Voting put paid to any idea that the Council of Ministers exerts ultimate control over the Commission, I'm afraid. And, of course, the veto is a weapon used more in threat than reality, so it's something of a paper tiger. Equally, since the Commission is the only body capable of proposing legislation, they do have rather a lot of influence over the direction of travel. It is therefore highly disingenuous to pretend that the mission statement of the ideologically-driven body that controls the legislative direction of the EU is anything but highly significant.

But as I say - and this is where the real disingenuousness is at play - this is not news. The EU have their mission of a borderless, centrally-controlled, united European superstate literally written on the walls of their buildings in Strasbourg and Brussels. To pretend the EU was ever anything else or ever had any other intention was the single greatest lie the British political class has ever perpetrated.
Yeah but you say that like it is a bad thing ;)

[Sir C]

Yeah but you say that like it is a bad thing ;)

You have been fully assimilated, la :-(

[Burney]

Yeah but you say that like it is a bad thing ;)

Whether it's a bad thing or not is in one sense neither here nor there. It is definitively not, however, what Britain's electorate were sold back in 1973/5, it is plainly not what they want and is what they have been repeatedly reassured that the EEC/EC/EU was not for the last 40 years by lying politicians. We have always sort of bumbled along under the assumption that the EU was primarily a trading bloc, missing the fact that it is an ideological institution with a clearly-defined and - to British minds at least - highly unwelcome end point.

Thankfully, the likes of Juncker woke us up to the truth and we bailed. :-)

[Burney]

You have been fully assimilated, la :-(

:nod: He's slapping his leather-clad thighs as we speak.

[Luis Anaconda]

You have been fully assimilated, la :-(

Come on - don't you wince when you watch the woeful May attempt to lead and wish you had a strong Teutonic woman like Merkel to guide you through the storm, sc

[Luis Anaconda]

Whether it's a bad thing or not is in one sense neither here nor there. It is definitively not, however, what Britain's electorate were sold back in 1973/5, it is plainly not what they want and is what they have been repeatedly reassured that the EEC/EC/EU was not for the last 40 years by lying politicians. We have always sort of bumbled along under the assumption that the EU was primarily a trading bloc, missing the fact that it is an ideological institution with a clearly-defined and - to British minds at least - highly unwelcome end point.

Thankfully, the likes of Juncker woke us up to the truth and we bailed. :-)
I think one thing we can both agree on is that Juncker is an absolute dream for those opposed to the EU. Who would have thought a drink-sodden Luxembourger could have such influence

[Burney]

Come on - don't you wince when you watch the woeful May attempt to lead and wish you had a strong Teutonic woman like Merkel to guide you through the storm, sc

Hmmm. Say what you like about May, but at least she didn't decide it would be a great idea to let a few million rapey, explodey Allah-botherers in in a vain attempt to make Germans look like nice guys and then try and force every other European nation to follow suit.

[Burney]

I think one thing we can both agree on is that Juncker is an absolute dream for those opposed to the EU. Who would have thought a drink-sodden Luxembourger could have such influence

Oh, yes. A complete disaster of an appointment. Best thing that could have happened from the Eurosceptic point of view. Brexit would have been much harder to achieve with someone reasonable like - say - Tusk in charge.

[World's End Stella]

Whether it's a bad thing or not is in one sense neither here nor there. It is definitively not, however, what Britain's electorate were sold back in 1973/5, it is plainly not what they want and is what they have been repeatedly reassured that the EEC/EC/EU was not for the last 40 years by lying politicians. We have always sort of bumbled along under the assumption that the EU was primarily a trading bloc, missing the fact that it is an ideological institution with a clearly-defined and - to British minds at least - highly unwelcome end point.

Thankfully, the likes of Juncker woke us up to the truth and we bailed. :-)

:hehe:

What % of Leave voters do you think voted Leave because of the view you've just stated?

I'm betting 95% couldn't even understand it.

[Sir C]

:hehe:

What % of Leave voters do you think voted Leave because of the view you've just stated?

I'm betting 95% couldn't even understand it.

IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU YOU DIRTY FOREIGNER!

Jesus, what is it with this guy?

[World's End Stella]

IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU YOU DIRTY FOREIGNER!

Jesus, what is it with this guy?

I have a grandparent that was born in England - you do not
I have an English name - you do not
100s of years ago my ancestors were in England - yours were not

So basically I am an Englishman who was born to English stock in another country but decided to return to the homeland. You are of Dutch and Irish stock who was fortunate enough to be born in my ancestral homeland and are too greedy and traitorous to return where you belong.

:judge:

[SWv2]

IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU YOU DIRTY FOREIGNER!

Jesus, what is it with this guy?

Imagine if people had taken that rude attitude with your parents and their mongrel children.

For shame Dutch, for shame.

[Peter]

be compulsory, an end to vetoes and an EU army.

So in other words, an EU that it would be utterly impossible for the U.K. ever to rejoin even in the highly unlikely event that we wanted to?

Decent of him to settle things for us like that. Maybe we can all stop bickering about it now and move on?


Yeah...... that isn't actually what he said though, is it.

I cant see a reference to compulsory euro or a specific reference to an EU army. Or the end of vetoes.

Anyway, all of those are excellent ideas....

[Peter]

Hmmm. Say what you like about May, but at least she didn't decide it would be a great idea to let a few million rapey, explodey Allah-botherers in in a vain attempt to make Germans look like nice guys and then try and force every other European nation to follow suit.

No, she let them all in for 6 years as Home Secretary while consistently claiming that migration was dropping.

Face it, she is a ****ing idiot.

[Sir C]

Imagine if people had taken that rude attitude with your parents and their mongrel children.

For shame Dutch, for shame.

My parents would never have moaned and bitched at their host country like this fúcking ingrate, sw.

I shall draw a veil across your intemperate use of the term 'mongrel'. Written in haste, I am guessing. A rush of blood to the head, perhaps. I will let it pass. Just watch yourself.

[Sir C]

I have a grandparent that was born in England - you do not
I have an English name - you do not
100s of years ago my ancestors were in England - yours were not

So basically I am an Englishman who was born to English stock in another country but decided to return to the homeland. You are of Dutch and Irish stock who was fortunate enough to be born in my ancestral homeland and are too greedy and traitorous to return where you belong.

:judge:

You have a grandparent who deserted this great country to go and be a moose shagger.
You have a name which is the punchline from a christmas cracker.
What your ancestors were doing 100s of years ago is irrelevant, the fact remains that centuries of Yanqui blood have rendered you foreign and, therefore, a bit daft. :judge:

[Pokster]

You have a grandparent who deserted this great country to go and be a moose shagger.
You have a name which is the punchline from a christmas cracker.
What your ancestors were doing 100s of years ago is irrelevant, the fact remains that centuries of Yanqui blood have rendered you foreign and, therefore, a bit daft. :judge:

So basically, you are both dirty foreign *******s who are lucky to be allowed to live in this country