Is the Tory party actually on a mission to alienate every single voter in the country

[Sir C]

What is all this choose your own gender nonsense? Have they gone fúcking insane?

There doesn't appear to be a viable, electable party for whom one might vote with a degree of confidence. Quite how we have come to such a pass is mysterious. But it's disturbing.

[Monty92]

What is all this choose your own gender nonsense? Have they gone fúcking insane?

There doesn't appear to be a viable, electable party for whom one might vote with a degree of confidence. Quite how we have come to such a pass is mysterious. But it's disturbing.

But politics exists downstream from culture. This is a policy driven by our new culture.

Saying that, I do think this particular policy could be the tipping point we've been waiting for.

[Burney]

What is all this choose your own gender nonsense? Have they gone fúcking insane?

There doesn't appear to be a viable, electable party for whom one might vote with a degree of confidence. Quite how we have come to such a pass is mysterious. But it's disturbing.

To whom is this shīt meant to appeal? Clearly it can't be tory voters, so we can only assume they're trying to woo the lefty student types - who will never vote for them in a million years.

glwtp

[Monty92]

To whom is this shīt meant to appeal? Clearly it can't be tory voters, so we can only assume they're trying to woo the lefty student types - who will never vote for them in a million years.

glwtp

You might have said the same of gay marriage once upon a time, but that has certainly helped the Tories 'progressive' credentials.

[Burney]

But politics exists downstream from culture. This is a policy driven by our new culture.

Saying that, I do think this particular policy could be the tipping point we've been waiting for.

What bothers me is the idea that they're going to promote 'transgender rights'. Transgenders already have rights - same as everyone else. What this fatuous tart Greening appears to be suggesting is of an actual government legislating to protect the delusions of a tiny number of mad people from the cold light of reality.

[Sir C]

But politics exists downstream from culture. This is a policy driven by our new culture.

Saying that, I do think this particular policy could be the tipping point we've been waiting for.

My glw, who has the misfortune of working amongst ordinary people - including, I suppose, so-called millenials, tells me that all these transers, radical feminists and Muslim apologists exist only on the pages of The Guardian, that I take too much notice of them, and that the people in her office, on the train and in restaurants and cafés are still sane.

You're calling my glw a liar.

[Monty92]

My glw, who has the misfortune of working amongst ordinary people - including, I suppose, so-called millenials, tells me that all these transers, radical feminists and Muslim apologists exist only on the pages of The Guardian, that I take too much notice of them, and that the people in her office, on the train and in restaurants and cafés are still sane.

You're calling my glw a liar.

I think she's right to a point, except that her assessment of your every day person being sane is not quite the full story. They are sane, but they are influenced by our culture through osmososis and reflexively support what they are told is 'progressive' while not really questioning it. They are also permanently told that we must accept other people's life experiences as to not do so is intolerant and arrogant. Of course, this sounds reasonable until 'acceptance' becomes something far beyond basic good manners and tactfulness.

In other words, they are useful idiots, and their tepid, apathetic endorsement serves to validate the entire movement.

[Burney]

You might have said the same of gay marriage once upon a time, but that has certainly helped the Tories 'progressive' credentials.

Doubt it got them many votes, though.

Besides, gay marriage was a case where there was a clear inequity based on sexual preference. One could defend it on the principle of equal rights. There is no such defence for these proposals.

[Sir C]

I think she's right to a point, except that her assessment of your every day person being sane is not quite the full story. They are sane, but they are influenced by our culture through osmososis and reflexively support what they are told is 'progressive' while not really questioning it. They are also permanently told that we must accept other people's life experiences as to not do so is intolerant and arrogant. Of course, this sounds reasonable until 'acceptance' becomes something far beyond basic good manners and tactfulness.

In other words, they are useful idiots, and their tepid, apathetic endorsement serves to validate the entire movement.

I suppose you socialise with these people, do you? Do they talk specious bóllocks as a matter of course?

[Monty92]

Doubt it got them many votes, though.

Besides, gay marriage was a case where there was a clear inequity based on sexual preference. One could defend it on the principle of equal rights. There is no such defence for these proposals.

You don't think the detoxification of the 'nasty party' has helped keep the Tories in government since Blair?

[Burney]

You don't think the detoxification of the 'nasty party' has helped keep the Tories in government since Blair?

Not particularly, no. I think that stuff is overrated. The people who think the tories are the nasty party will never vote for them anyway.

[Monty92]

I suppose you socialise with these people, do you? Do they talk specious bóllocks as a matter of course?

The worst thing that could ever happen to these people is for them to find themselves tainted by association with the right. And so they will fight their corner right until the point that they no longer can. So, for example, you won't get many 'sane' people who would defend Rachel Dolezal's right to self-identify as black, or for a 57-year-old man to self-identity as a baby and sit around in nappies all day.

Which is why this latest move by the Tories gives me hope. I don't think sane people can support it while keeping a straight face. And once the radicals lose the support of the mainstream, their game is up.

[Burney]

I suppose you socialise with these people, do you? Do they talk specious bóllocks as a matter of course?

Monty works in the media and lives in North London. Of course he socialises with these people. I suspect he spends a lot of time biting his lip so as not to be cut dead in the local vegetarian cafe.

[Monty92]

Not particularly, no. I think that stuff is overrated. The people who think the tories are the nasty party will never vote for them anyway.

Perhaps, but crucially it encourages people to vote for other parties to keep the Tories out.

[Sir C]

Monty works in the media and lives in North London. Of course he socialises with these people. I suspect he spends a lot of time biting his lip so as not to be cut dead in the local vegetarian cafe.

Yes, but more importantly, do you think Justine Greening is pure lesbonian, or can she be tempted by the real thing? If, for example, she and her lady friend were enjoying a cuddle on the sofa, perhaps clad in corsets and fishnet stockings, and I arrived unexpectedly to fis the washing machine, do you think they would immediately strip me of my dungarees?

Asking for a friend.

[Burney]

Yes, but more importantly, do you think Justine Greening is pure lesbonian, or can she be tempted by the real thing? If, for example, she and her lady friend were enjoying a cuddle on the sofa, perhaps clad in corsets and fishnet stockings, and I arrived unexpectedly to fis the washing machine, do you think they would immediately strip me of my dungarees?

Asking for a friend.

Why would anyone call you in to fix their washing machine? And why would you be wearing dungarees? :rubchin:

[Sir C]

Why would anyone call you in to fix their washing machine? And why would you be wearing dungarees? :rubchin:

Are you denying my right to identify as a dungaree-clad washing machine repairman?

[Peter]

I think she's right to a point, except that her assessment of your every day person being sane is not quite the full story. They are sane, but they are influenced by our culture through osmososis and reflexively support what they are told is 'progressive' while not really questioning it. They are also permanently told that we must accept other people's life experiences as to not do so is intolerant and arrogant. Of course, this sounds reasonable until 'acceptance' becomes something far beyond basic good manners and tactfulness.

In other words, they are useful idiots, and their tepid, apathetic endorsement serves to validate the entire movement.

Surely we can accept other people's life experiences without endless legislation and discussion about how they need to be treated.

I believe in my own right to not give a **** about other people's life experience. I don't care about your gender, sexual orientation, preferred title, preferred toilet. Indifference is not intolerance.

My foot hurts most days. People just don't understand how it feels. I feel isolated from my community and have nobody to turn to.

[Ash]

My foot hurts most days. People just don't understand how it feels. I feel isolated from my community and have nobody to turn to.

I sometimes have hurty-foot syndrome too, Peter. I feel your pain. Well, my pain tbh, but I can empathise.

[Sir C]

I sometimes have hurty-foot syndrome too, Peter. I feel your pain. Well, my pain tbh, but I can empathise.

Is this pain underneath the foot? Behind the toes? Like the ends of two bones rubbing together?

I had that for years and years and years and suffered in silence, until I happened upon orthotic insoles. Now my feet, ankles and knees all work. Like a miracle. For the sake of a pair of £12.99 shoe inserts.

I don't know whether to laugh with joy or cry for the lost years.

[Monty92]

Surely we can accept other people's life experiences without endless legislation and discussion about how they need to be treated.

I believe in my own right to not give a **** about other people's life experience. I don't care about your gender, sexual orientation, preferred title, preferred toilet. Indifference is not intolerance.

My foot hurts most days. People just don't understand how it feels. I feel isolated from my community and have nobody to turn to.

No, there is a process of correction that needs to take place; a redressing of the balance that requires totalitarian state intervention. What kind of tolerance is it if a bloke wakes up one morning and decides he feels like being a woman, if he can't then use women's toilets and changing rooms? How is that supposed to make them feel a part of our 'inclusive' society?

The exception to the rule is Islam, which is why we now allow Sharia courts in the UK, even though they openly discriminate against women.

[Burney]

No, there is a process of correction that needs to take place; a redressing of the balance that requires totalitarian state intervention. What kind of tolerance is it if a bloke wakes up one morning and decides he feels like being a woman, if he can't then use women's toilets and changing rooms? How is that supposed to make them feel a part of our 'inclusive' society?

The exception to the rule is Islam, which is why we now allow Sharia courts in the UK, even though they openly discriminate against women.

Apparently, it's transphobic not to want anything to do with their female penīses, m.

It's a rum do when a chap isn't even allowed to turn someone down on the basis that they've got a cock, I reckon. :-(

[Monty92]

Apparently, it's transphobic not to want anything to do with their female penīses, m.

It's a rum do when a chap isn't even allowed to turn someone down on the basis that they've got a cock, I reckon. :-(

I assume you saw the 'conceptual penís' hoax paper that ended up getting peer reviewed by loads of unwitting academics?

[Peter]

No, there is a process of correction that needs to take place; a redressing of the balance that requires totalitarian state intervention. What kind of tolerance is it if a bloke wakes up one morning and decides he feels like being a woman, if he can't then use women's toilets and changing rooms? How is that supposed to make them feel a part of our 'inclusive' society?

The exception to the rule is Islam, which is why we now allow Sharia courts in the UK, even though they openly discriminate against women.

Well, yes. I was reminded the other day that I needed to stop thinking in terms of stereotypes such as men and women. When I pointed out that perhaps we should then abandon the 30 point 'glass ceiling' action plan designed to ensure women have access to top jobs I was accused of wanting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

We have an annual women's conference. How offensive is that to all these gender benders?

[Monty92]

Well, yes. I was reminded the other day that I needed to stop thinking in terms of stereotypes such as men and women. When I pointed out that perhaps we should then abandon the 30 point 'glass ceiling' action plan designed to ensure women have access to top jobs I was accused of wanting to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

We have an annual women's conference. How offensive is that to all these gender benders?

The interesting thing about this latest Tory announcement is that the gay and transgender communities are all coming out against it, as they believe it represents an existential threat to their own identities.

After all, if sex and gender as as fluid as is claimed, then how can a gay man or woman be gay, if we cannot be sure they are even a man or a woman, and are themselves free to change their mind at the drop of a hat?

[Monty92]

The interesting thing about this latest Tory announcement is that the gay and transgender communities are all coming out against it, as they believe it represents an existential threat to their own identities.

Whoops-a-daisy

[Burney]

I assume you saw the 'conceptual penís' hoax paper that ended up getting peer reviewed by loads of unwitting academics?

:hehe: Yes. I also liked Toby Young's reply to Andrew Marr on the BBC when Marr said: "So if I changed gender, I could retire earlier?", to which Young replied: "And you'd be the BBC's best-paid woman" :hehe:

One does feel that, as this stuff starts to collide with real economic and legal realities, it might finally all come crashing down.

[Burney]

The interesting thing about this latest Tory announcement is that the gay and transgender communities are all coming out against it, as they believe it represents an existential threat to their own identities.

After all, if sex and gender as as fluid as is claimed, then how can a gay man or woman be gay, if we cannot be sure they are even a man or a woman, and are themselves free to change their mind at the drop of a hat?

I believe feminists have been making this argument for some time - only to be labelled as Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists for their trouble.

[Viva Prat Vegas]

We have an annual women's conference. How offensive is that to all these gender benders?

Do us gentlemen (and Pokster) still feel obliged to offer our seat to a pregnant woman ?
Assuming it is a woman and not a post womb implant man

[Ash]

Is this pain underneath the foot? Behind the toes? Like the ends of two bones rubbing together?

I had that for years and years and years and suffered in silence, until I happened upon orthotic insoles. Now my feet, ankles and knees all work. Like a miracle. For the sake of a pair of £12.99 shoe inserts.

I don't know whether to laugh with joy or cry for the lost years.

No, it's the first metatarsal joint. A believe it goes back to when a big fat lad kicked my big toe bloody hard when playing football at school. He was nowhere near the ball. To this day he is probably living guilt-free as well. With a bit of luck he'll get the bad aids or something and so justice will be done.

[Monty92]

I believe feminists have been making this argument for some time - only to be labelled as Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists for their trouble.

Indeed. Let's hope this time it all spills over into a bloody sectarian war in which we can look on and hope everyone dies. Like watching Sunnis vs Shias, or Spurs vs Chelsea.

[Monty92]

No, it's the first metatarsal joint. A believe it goes back to when a big fat lad kicked my big toe bloody hard when playing football at school. He was nowhere near the ball. To this day he is probably living guilt-free as well. With a bit of luck he'll get the bad aids or something and so justice will be done.

His name's Hendon Gooner and it was a leisure centre, not a school.

[Peter]

No, there is a process of correction that needs to take place; a redressing of the balance that requires totalitarian state intervention. What kind of tolerance is it if a bloke wakes up one morning and decides he feels like being a woman, if he can't then use women's toilets and changing rooms? How is that supposed to make them feel a part of our 'inclusive' society?

The exception to the rule is Islam, which is why we now allow Sharia courts in the UK, even though they openly discriminate against women.

Fine, so provide a third toilet for weirdos and the terminally confused. I have made my position clear on this. I don't care where or how they ****. Men, women, other.

The law is the law. All else should have no standing.

[Peter]

The interesting thing about this latest Tory announcement is that the gay and transgender communities are all coming out against it, as they believe it represents an existential threat to their own identities.

After all, if sex and gender as as fluid as is claimed, then how can a gay man or woman be gay, if we cannot be sure they are even a man or a woman, and are themselves free to change their mind at the drop of a hat?

Surely we are still allowed to identify as our own gender rather than have some huge melting point? It doesn't matter how many weirdos and benders there are, I am still a bloke. You cant deny my right to identify as a geezer.

[Monty92]

Fine, so provide a third toilet for weirdos and the terminally confused. I have made my position clear on this. I don't care where or how they ****. Men, women, other.

The law is the law. All else should have no standing.

Segregation? Lovely Peter, just lovely.

No doubt you'dd have them at the back of the bus and in separate queues at the post office too.

[Monty92]

Surely we are still allowed to identify as our own gender rather than have some huge melting point? It doesn't matter how many weirdos and benders there are, I am still a bloke. You cant deny my right to identify as a geezer.

But the reason we are now allowed to identity as we wish is because we now know that gender and sex emerge from our experiences rather than biological fact. So what we traditionally known to mean being homosexual or heterosexual (when you fancy people of the opposite gender/sex) no longer applies.

[Burney]

Surely we are still allowed to identify as our own gender rather than have some huge melting point? It doesn't matter how many weirdos and benders there are, I am still a bloke. You cant deny my right to identify as a geezer.

But this is the point: how you define yourself is irrelevant. What matters is how objective , empirical fact defines you. The law can't be run on the basis of allowing everyone to be taken at their own valuation.

[Viva Prat Vegas]

But the reason we are now allowed to identity as we wish is because we now know that gender and sex emerge from our experiences rather than biological fact. So what we traditionally known to mean being homosexual or heterosexual (when you fancy people of the opposite gender/sex) no longer applies.

How does sex emerge from our experiences ?
Curious

[Monty92]

How does sex emerge from our experiences ?
Curious

https://www.autostraddle.com/its-time-for-people-to-stop-using-the-social-construct-of-biological-sex-to-defend-their-transmisogyny-240284/

[Peter]

But the reason we are now allowed to identity as we wish is because we now know that gender and sex emerge from our experiences rather than biological fact. So what we traditionally known to mean being homosexual or heterosexual (when you fancy people of the opposite gender/sex) no longer applies.

Of course they still apply. What you have in your pants and what you want to have there remains different and distinct from where you want to stick it.

For them, those traditional notions may not apply but for the rest of us they do. I am a bloke who fancies women and I identify as such. Whats wrong with that?

[Peter]

But this is the point: how you define yourself is irrelevant. What matters is how objective , empirical fact defines you. The law can't be run on the basis of allowing everyone to be taken at their own valuation.

Right, but that is clearly where we are heading. I am just saying, nobody is going to tell me I am not a bloke.

[Burney]

Of course they still apply. What you have in your pants and what you want to have there remains different and distinct from where you want to stick it.

For them, those traditional notions may not apply but for the rest of us they do. I am a bloke who fancies women and I identify as such. Whats wrong with that?

What's wrong with that is that you use the nonsense of saying that that is how you 'identify' as opposed to saying that that is just plain and simple what you bloody well are. To say you 'identify' is to concede that those definitions are of your choosing or might at some point change. Once you concede that absolutes are negotiable, you're in trouble.

[Monty92]

Of course they still apply. What you have in your pants and what you want to have there remains different and distinct from where you want to stick it.

For them, those traditional notions may not apply but for the rest of us they do. I am a bloke who fancies women and I identify as such. Whats wrong with that?

Because notions of sexuality are fundamentally rooted in traditional conceptions of sex and gender. identifying as a man no longer means you are a man, because being a man means nothing in a scientific sense. And neither, therefore, does sexuality.

You are simply a person who today identifies as a man who fancies woman. Heterosexuality has nothing to do with it.

[Peter]

Segregation? Lovely Peter, just lovely.

No doubt you'dd have them at the back of the bus and in separate queues at the post office too.

We already have segregation of the sexes. We are just adding a further category to recognise all these attention-seeking benders.

And we already have people wanting to segregate public transport. Not my idea....

[Peter]

Because notions of sexuality are fundamentally rooted in traditional conceptions of sex and gender. identifying as a man no longer means you are a man, because being a man means nothing in a scientific sense. And neither, therefore, does sexuality.

You are simply a person who today identifies as a man who fancies woman. Heterosexuality has nothing to do with it.

That's fine. I have never prided myself on being heterosexual. I don't care about that.

I identify as a man. I don't really give a **** what anyone else thinks about that. I am not willing to identify as being part of some muddled pool of normals and benders.

[Monty92]

We already have segregation of the sexes. We are just adding a further category to recognise all these attention-seeking benders.

And we already have people wanting to segregate public transport. Not my idea....

EXACTLY! You are finally woke!

Segregation of humans is not only socially and ethically regressive but factually absurd, given there is no such thing as biological sex.

[Peter]

EXACTLY! You are finally woke!

Segregation of the sexes is not only socially and ethically regressive but factually absurd, given there is no such thing as biological sex.

It is merely a matter of public convenience (if you'll pardon the pun). Some stand, some sit. Those inbetween can **** off to the third door.

What's wrong with that? The rest of it is just *******s isn't it.

[Peter]

What's wrong with that is that you use the nonsense of saying that that is how you 'identify' as opposed to saying that that is just plain and simple what you bloody well are. To say you 'identify' is to concede that those definitions are of your choosing or might at some point change. Once you concede that absolutes are negotiable, you're in trouble.

Of course. But if you start going down that road they win. There is no end to this conversation other than to stick them in a third bog and let them say whatever the **** they want.

And they are not having the op on the NHS either. **** that.

[Burney]

https://www.autostraddle.com/its-time-for-people-to-stop-using-the-social-construct-of-biological-sex-to-defend-their-transmisogyny-240284/

Laughable as that article is, it's also scary. Essentially, it is someone holding demonstrable facts up to ridicule and contempt based on an absurd, faith-based dogma. In essence, it's no different to a fundamentalist tract denouncing evolution or an article in Dabiq that holds western science in contempt because it clashes with the Koran. These people scare me.

[Monty92]

Laughable as that article is, it's also scary. Essentially, it is someone holding demonstrable facts up to ridicule and contempt based on an absurd, faith-based dogma. In essence, it's no different to a fundamentalist tract denouncing evolution or an article in Dabiq that holds western science in contempt because it clashes with the Koran. These people scare me.

Both laughable and scary, you say?

"Mey Valdivia Rude is a bisexual Latina trans woman living in Los Angeles. She's a writer, comic consultant and a trans activist. She's a bruja, a femme, a pop princess and she loves comic books, witches, dinosaurs and crying."

[Burney]

Both laughable and scary, you say?

"Mey Valdivia Rude is a bisexual Latina trans woman living in Los Angeles. She's a writer, comic consultant and a trans activist. She's a bruja, a femme, a pop princess and she loves comic books, witches, dinosaurs and crying."

Blimey. Thank God these people have such high suicide rates.

[World's End Stella]

Couldn't we just change all toilets, changing rooms etc into, those who have a pen1s, those who have a vagina and those who have both go to the raspberry one?

That wouldn't be discriminatory in any way, would it? And there would be no lack of clarity with regard to where you should go?

[Monty92]

Couldn't we just change all toilets, changing rooms etc into, those who have a pen1s, those who have a vagina and those who have both go to the raspberry one?

That wouldn't be discriminatory in any way, would it? And there would be no lack of clarity with regard to where you should go?

How is it not discriminatory to tell a man with a penís that he can't go in the toilet of his choice? What happens if he looks down at his penís (which we know only to be conceptual) and sees a vagina?

[World's End Stella]

How is it not discriminatory to tell a man with a penís that he can't go in the toilet of his choice? What happens if he looks down at his penís (which we know only to be conceptual) and sees a vagina?

Because either way the person still gets to use the loo or change, so there is no discrimination. And for convenience we are merely routing people to one or the other based on a physical characteristic. Not what they see, but what they have.

I'm not seeing a flaw here, Monty old bean.

[Pokster]

How is it not discriminatory to tell a man with a penís that he can't go in the toilet of his choice? What happens if he looks down at his penís (which we know only to be conceptual) and sees a vagina?

That is quite spooky, 'cos when your mum looks at her vagina she nearly always sees a *****

[Monty92]

Because either way the person still gets to use the loo or change, so there is no discrimination. And for convenience we are merely routing people to one or the other based on a physical characteristic. Not what they see, but what they have.

I'm not seeing a flaw here, Monty old bean.

You're absolute fúcking vermin mate, that's what you are.

[barrybueno]

I sometimes have hurty-foot syndrome too, Peter. I feel your pain. Well, my pain tbh, but I can empathise.

Well no one has more hurty-foot syndrome than me, should get confirmation of gout this week, beautiful eh? :hehe:

[Ash]

Well no one has more hurty-foot syndrome than me, should get confirmation of gout this week, beautiful eh? :hehe:

:-\ Good luck, Baz.

[IUFG]

Couldn't we just change all toilets, changing rooms etc into, those who have a pen1s, those who have a vagina and those who have both go to the raspberry one?

That wouldn't be discriminatory in any way, would it? And there would be no lack of clarity with regard to where you should go?


See what gender neutral toilets lead to . . . http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/man-who-secretly-filmed-female-students-in-toilets-at-university-of-east-anglia-in-norwich-to-be-sentenced-today-1-4790075

Quite fitting where the defendant now lives...

[Ash]

See what gender neutral toilets lead to . . . http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/man-who-secretly-filmed-female-students-in-toilets-at-university-of-east-anglia-in-norwich-to-be-sentenced-today-1-4790075

Quite fitting where the defendant now lives...

"Comments have been disabled on this article"

[Yesterday Once More]

The Cameron/Osborne wing of the Tory Party thinks being socially liberal compensates for being economically uncompromising.

Many working class people are inherenrly socially conservative and have no natural political home. Few politicians have the guts to swim against the tide. David Davis might, I think.... Tim Farron was hounded out of his job for not trashing his beliefs on gay sex.