Interesting way to spin this story, given the fact that the NHS comes second last in

[Burney]

the minor matter of 'healthcare outcomes' (i.e. whether you get better or not).

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2140698-us-ranked-worst-healthcare-system-while-the-nhs-is-the-best/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&cmpid=SOC%7CNSNS%7C2017-Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1500015436

[Peter]

the minor matter of 'healthcare outcomes' (i.e. whether you get better or not).

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2140698-us-ranked-worst-healthcare-system-while-the-nhs-is-the-best/?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&cmpid=SOC%7CNSNS%7C2017-Echobox&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1500015436

If you treat everyone, you are going to kill more people.

One may as well marvel at the fact that selective schools achieve better exam results.

[Burney]

If you treat everyone, you are going to kill more people.

One may as well marvel at the fact that selective schools achieve better exam results.

Really? Then why does the Netherlands health service come top in access and second in equity, but sixth in outcomes? By your logic, it should come bottom.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/interactives/2017/july/mirror-mirror/

[Peter]

Really? Then why does the Netherlands health service come top in access and second in equity, but sixth in outcomes? By your logic, it should come bottom.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/interactives/2017/july/mirror-mirror/

Dutch people are healthy though. Not a fair comparison.

Look at the millions of fat, useless guzzlers the NHS has to try and keep alive. No wonder they are dropping like flies.

[Burney]

Dutch people are healthy though. Not a fair comparison.

Look at the millions of fat, useless guzzlers the NHS has to try and keep alive. No wonder they are dropping like flies.

:hehe: You're wriggling on the hook here, p. ;-)

Face it: the NHS is a bit shīt.

[Peter]

:hehe: You're wriggling on the hook here, p. ;-)

Face it: the NHS is a bit shīt.

Its ****ing dreadful but its free.

There is no pleasing some people.

[Burney]

Its ****ing dreadful but its free.

There is no pleasing some people.

I'll take that. :-) They should use that as a slogan.

Of course I won't be boring enough to point out that it's anything but free. That would be tedious.

[Peter]

:hehe: You're wriggling on the hook here, p. ;-)

Face it: the NHS is a bit shīt.

Anyway.... the NHS comes out top overall and scores well in every category apart from the ‘everybody dying’ category.

Also note that category focuses on preventable diseases and mortality across a population, and NOT specifically on outcomes from NHS care.

It suggests an ageing, unhealthy, disease-ridden population rather than an incompetent, bureaucratic health care system. In other words, the NHS is doing a reasonable job but people are dying anyway.

Overall, proof it is the best healthcare system in the world.

And that everybody dies…..

[Ash]

Its ****ing dreadful but its free.


That's a sweeping generalisation, you know.

There are a lot of very hard-working people patching up the wounded and repairing the ill. The fact that I've had some negative experiences myself does not turn me against the organisation as a whole.

[PSRB]

Its ****ing dreadful but its free.

There is no pleasing some people.

Would of course be helped if idiots like these had to pay for their healthcare! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-40598537

[Burney]

Anyway.... the NHS comes out top overall and scores well in every category apart from the ‘everybody dying’ category.

Also note that category focuses on preventable diseases and mortality across a population, and NOT specifically on outcomes from NHS care.

It suggests an ageing, unhealthy, disease-ridden population rather than an incompetent, bureaucratic health care system. In other words, the NHS is doing a reasonable job but people are dying anyway.

Overall, proof it is the best healthcare system in the world.

And that everybody dies…..

So a National Health Service bears no responsibility for the overall health of the nation's population? Interesting way of looking at it...

[SWv2]

That's a sweeping generalisation, you know.

There are a lot of very hard-working people patching up the wounded and repairing the ill. The fact that I've had some negative experiences myself does not turn me against the organisation as a whole.

Well said A.

[Burney]

That's a sweeping generalisation, you know.

There are a lot of very hard-working people patching up the wounded and repairing the ill.

No-one said there weren't. And I'm sure that's just as much the case in other, better healthcare systems.

[Peter]

I'll take that. :-) They should use that as a slogan.

Of course I won't be boring enough to point out that it's anything but free. That would be tedious.

Ryanair isn't free but it may as well be when compared to other airlines. It’s also ****, you have to sit next to disease-ridden scum hacking their guts up and you stand a reasonable chance of being killed.

The NHS of the skies ;)

[Peter]

So a National Health Service bears no responsibility for the overall health of the nation's population? Interesting way of looking at it...

I didn't say that. I think my point is that you cant polish a turd.

[Peter]

No-one said there weren't. And I'm sure that's just as much the case in other, better healthcare systems.

Which according to your survey, don't exist.

Best in the world, b.

[Peter]

That's a sweeping generalisation, you know.

There are a lot of very hard-working people patching up the wounded and repairing the ill. The fact that I've had some negative experiences myself does not turn me against the organisation as a whole.

I wasn't being serious.

[SWv2]

Ryanair isn't free but it may as well be when compared to other airlines. It’s also ****, you have to sit next to disease-ridden scum hacking their guts up and you stand a reasonable chance of being killed.

The NHS of the skies ;)

Great for a 45 minute jaunt over to Stansted all the same.

[Burney]

Which according to your survey, don't exist.

Best in the world, b.

Yes. That league table is rather like a Premier League table that takes in a range of factors other than the outcomes of games, of course.

Arsenal would always win in such a system.

[Ash]

So a National Health Service bears no responsibility for the overall health of the nation's population? Interesting way of looking at it...

Yeah but too much of that gets into the whole 'preventative' thing, which is a slippery slope. Telling us how much we should be drinking (two pints a week max) and so on.

[Burney]

Yeah but too much of that gets into the whole 'preventative' thing, which is a slippery slope. Telling us how much we should be drinking (two pints a week max) and so on.

There is a difference between good, lifelong health education and endless prissy hectoring. This country does a lot of the latter and búgger all of the former.

For instance, a really good use of NHS funds would be to teach people to budget, choose healthy food and cook from an early age. Also, the provision of sporting facilities and equipment would help.

That sort of thinking's a bit too joined-up for our mandarins, though. Much better to spend those billions on wagging your finger at those who are already past saving.

[SWv2]

There is a difference between good, lifelong health education and endless prissy hectoring. This country does a lot of the latter and búgger all of the former.

For instance, a really good use of NHS funds would be to teach people to budget, choose healthy food and cook from an early age. Also, the provision of sporting facilities and equipment would help.

That sort of thinking's a bit too joined-up for our mandarins, though. Much better to spend those billions on wagging your finger at those who are already past saving.

The NHS don't have enough money to even do the health thing before they diversify into areas which could or should be covered off by other authorities such as Sports Councils or whatever.

[Burney]

The NHS don't have enough money to even do the health thing before they diversify into areas which could or should be covered off by other authorities such as Sports Councils or whatever.

But it's exactly that sort of siloed thinking that's the problem, you see? If you take a holistic view of health and the factors that impact upon it, then effective prevention is surely within the remit of a health system?

Besides, the NHS has fùck tonnes of money to spend on shīt like diversity officers, multi-faith chaplains and incredibly inefficient central purchasing practices that mean I can buy paracetamol 20 times cheaper at Tesco than it can be prescribed to me by the NHS.

[SWv2]

But it's exactly that sort of siloed thinking that's the problem, you see? If you take a holistic view of health and the factors that impact upon it, then effective prevention is surely within the remit of a health system?

Besides, the NHS has fùck tonnes of money to spend on shīt like diversity officers, multi-faith chaplains and incredibly inefficient central purchasing practices that mean I can buy paracetamol 20 times cheaper at Tesco than it can be prescribed to me by the NHS.

I would suggest you are then a part of what is a massive problem if you are wasting NHS time and resource with minor illnesses which can be fixed with some Paracetamol.

:vsign:

[Peter]

Yes. That league table is rather like a Premier League table that takes in a range of factors other than the outcomes of games, of course.

Arsenal would always win in such a system.

Its more a question of added value.

For example, Leicester winning the league is arguably a greater achievement than City winning it.

Also interesting that it comes close to the top on efficiency when we are constantly told that the problem is public sector bureaucracy rather than under funding or poor strategic planning.

And Ash’s point that earlier ‘interventions’ and attempts to prescribe behaviours is something british people tend to hugely resent.

Look at the gastropods lumbering their way around our supermarkets. You can’t force-feed these people salads.

[Burney]

I would suggest you are then a part of what is a massive problem if you are wasting NHS time and resource with minor illnesses which can be fixed with some Paracetamol.

:vsign:

Not me, sunshine. I haven't seen a doctor in years. I merely use that as an example of the organisation's spendthrift inefficiency.

[Peter]

But it's exactly that sort of siloed thinking that's the problem, you see? If you take a holistic view of health and the factors that impact upon it, then effective prevention is surely within the remit of a health system?

Besides, the NHS has fùck tonnes of money to spend on shīt like diversity officers, multi-faith chaplains and incredibly inefficient central purchasing practices that mean I can buy paracetamol 20 times cheaper at Tesco than it can be prescribed to me by the NHS.

Yet comes out 3rd for efficiency on your list. Go figure. Must be wrong, I suppose.

I don't think it takes NHS money to provide education on diet and facilities for fitness. Those are catered for elsewhere, just not very well. Or at least, with little take up.

Of course, we could take the punitive route. Taxes on high fat food and fast food that subsidises the cost of fruit and vegetables, greater subsidy on local authority gym membership.

People are more likely to avoid a fine/tax than take advantage of a subsidy.

[SWv2]

Not me, sunshine. I haven't seen a doctor in years. I merely use that as an example of the organisation's spendthrift inefficiency.

Don't sunshine me pal.

I am a fan of your NHS. While I have no doubt the organisation as a whole is pretty much fúcked and the overlords at the top are hugely incompetent the public facing staff in most hospitals are superb and do their best in trying circumstances.

[Burney]

Yet comes out 3rd for efficiency on your list. Go figure. Must be wrong, I suppose.

I don't think it takes NHS money to provide education on diet and facilities for fitness. Those are catered for elsewhere, just not very well. Or at least, with little take up.

Of course, we could take the punitive route. Taxes on high fat food and fast food that subsidises the cost of fruit and vegetables, greater subsidy on local authority gym membership.

People are more likely to avoid a fine/tax than take advantage of a subsidy.

To be honest, I don't really take that survey terribly seriously, since it is clearly designed to laud the most socialised forms of medicine and punish the least (i.e. the US). I just find it amusing that, even in such a survey, the NHS comes bottom in terms of healthcare outcomes.

I would argue that hiving these things off into different, competing departments is exactly the problem, though. Other countries do educate their populace far better in terms of food and exercise and for me, those are health-related matters and should therefore fall under the remit of a true national health service. Otherwise, its 'prevention' strategies can only be reactive.

[Ash]

People are more likely to avoid a fine/tax than take advantage of a subsidy.

You want to fine people now for not eating up their vegetables?

Some of the most health-service intensive people I know actually have quite 'healthy' diets and lifestyles. I smoke, drink somewhat heavily, eat English breakfasts and even some #gasp ready-meals and have been the doctor's once in ten years and about twice in the ten years before that.

So basically **** the food-snob policing of lifestyles. It's just another version of virtue/status signalling imo.

[Peter]

You want to fine people now for not eating up their vegetables?

Some of the most health-service intensive people I know actually have quite 'healthy' diets and lifestyles. I smoke, drink somewhat heavily, eat English breakfasts and even some #gasp ready-meals and have been the doctor's once in ten years and about twice in the ten years before that.

So basically **** the food-snob policing of lifestyles. It's just another version of virtue/status signalling imo.

No. I’m saying you could use the tax system as a deterrent with fast food and very unhealthy stuff in the same way we do with smoking (because that has worked really well ;))

I don’t think accepted wisdom is that bad diet makes you drop down dead in your 30s or 40s. It’s the problems it can cause in later life. Most of us tend not to worry about that and I’m not convinced that an NHS lecture is going to change our minds.

[Peter]

To be honest, I don't really take that survey terribly seriously, since it is clearly designed to laud the most socialised forms of medicine and punish the least (i.e. the US). I just find it amusing that, even in such a survey, the NHS comes bottom in terms of healthcare outcomes.

I would argue that hiving these things off into different, competing departments is exactly the problem, though. Other countries do educate their populace far better in terms of food and exercise and for me, those are health-related matters and should therefore fall under the remit of a true national health service. Otherwise, its 'prevention' strategies can only be reactive.

Well the survey appears floored if for no other reason than that it ranks the country with the second poorest health outcomes as the best provider.

On the other point, surely the key is that the message gets through, not who it comes from. How do the other countries that do such a wonderful job of this manage it?

And won’t you be the first in the queue to bang on about the NHS spending money on retard cooking classes instead of beds and kidney machines?

[Sir C]

Well the survey appears floored if for no other reason than that it ranks the country with the second poorest health outcomes as the best provider.

On the other point, surely the key is that the message gets through, not who it comes from. How do the other countries that do such a wonderful job of this manage it?

And won’t you be the first in the queue to bang on about the NHS spending money on retard cooking classes instead of beds and kidney machines?

Mmm, kidneys. Devilled, on toast. Lovely, if a bit pissy.

[Sir C]

Don't sunshine me pal.

I am a fan of your NHS. While I have no doubt the organisation as a whole is pretty much fúcked and the overlords at the top are hugely incompetent the public facing staff in most hospitals are superb and do their best in trying circumstances.

The problem with the NHS is that is has nothing to do with health. It is a purely political entity, designed to make socialism appear normal. It is a Trojan horse whose gift is communism.

[SWv2]

Mmm, kidneys. Devilled, on toast. Lovely, if a bit pissy.

Dirty bastárd.

Dear old Twix used to swear by them. Another dirty bástard.

[Sir C]

Dirty bastárd.

Dear old Twix used to swear by them. Another dirty bástard.

Veal kidneys are good done in the French style, but look a bit iffy.

677

[SWv2]

Veal kidneys are good done in the French style, but look a bit iffy.

677

Looks like fried shíte.

[Burney]

Veal kidneys are good done in the French style, but look a bit iffy.

677

Ah, the little ratte potatoes in the background. Easily the best salad potato for my money.

[Sir C]

Ah, the little ratte potatoes in the background. Easily the best salad potato for my money.

I rather like the tinned peas and carrots :hehe:

For a nation of foodies they don't half eat some ****e.

[Burney]

I rather like the tinned peas and carrots :hehe:

For a nation of foodies they don't half eat some ****e.

I love the Petis Pois in jars. I'll happily eat them cold, straight from the receptacle.

[Ash]

No. I’m saying you could use the tax system as a deterrent with fast food and very unhealthy stuff in the same way we do with smoking (because that has worked really well ;))

How are you getting on with the new compulsory huge tobacco pouches, that our lords and masters have bestowed upon us in their infinite wisdom? I am smoking maybe 5-10% more than before, as I have less sense of running out and no need to ease off to stave off a visit to the shop.

wd the smoking Nazis.


I don’t think accepted wisdom is that bad diet makes you drop down dead in your 30s or 40s. It’s the problems it can cause in later life. Most of us tend not to worry about that and I’m not convinced that an NHS lecture is going to change our minds.

Old age is over-rated imo.

[SWv2]

Old age is over-rated imo.

Real old age is shíte.

Being our age is a different matter.

[Peter]

How are you getting on with the new compulsory huge tobacco pouches, that our lords and masters have bestowed upon us in their infinite wisdom? I am smoking maybe 5-10% more than before, as I have less sense of running out and no need to ease off to stave off a visit to the shop.

wd the smoking Nazis.



Old age is over-rated imo.

Without wishing to rub it in, I haven’t bought a pouch of tobacco in the UK for nearly 18 months. A 250 gram box of five pouches costs 12 quid at Malaysian duty free and I tend to bring back 6 boxes.

That said, I am down to my last three boxes now. A friend returns from India on Tuesday will at least two more, I hope.

[Ash]

Real old age is shíte.

Being our age is a different matter.

Indeed. No point living for an extra 15 years covered in piss, dribbling and being unable to do anything.

[Pokster]

Indeed. No point living for an extra 15 years covered in piss, dribbling and being unable to do anything.

Message reported to Sir C


well, his carer anyway