Something vaguely interesting in the wake of recent terrorist attacks.

[Sir C]

The news breaks - 8 killed and 47 injured, or 25 killed and 100 injured, and one expects the death toll to increase significantly over the following few days, but it doesn't.

Now injuries from explosions, or from being mown down by a car, are likely to be pretty severe, aren't they? The lesson appears to be that if you can get to a hospital alive, no matter how mangled, quacks will be able to keep you alive.

wd advances in medical science.

[Ash]

The news breaks - 8 killed and 47 injured, or 25 killed and 100 injured, and one expects the death toll to increase significantly over the following few days, but it doesn't.

Now injuries from explosions, or from being mown down by a car, are likely to be pretty severe, aren't they? The lesson appears to be that if you can get to a hospital alive, no matter how mangled, quacks will be able to keep you alive.

wd advances in medical science.

And wd the NHS. :nod:

[Sir C]

And wd the NHS. :nod:

Yes, it's certainly the case that competent medical treatment is only available in the UK because of a specific funding structure. Yes. In Germany, France, The Netherlands or Switzerland, for example, any injury at all results in immediate death.

Yes.

[Burney]

The news breaks - 8 killed and 47 injured, or 25 killed and 100 injured, and one expects the death toll to increase significantly over the following few days, but it doesn't.

Now injuries from explosions, or from being mown down by a car, are likely to be pretty severe, aren't they? The lesson appears to be that if you can get to a hospital alive, no matter how mangled, quacks will be able to keep you alive.

wd advances in medical science.

Golden hour, innit. Emergency medicine is very good now, but then it has been for a long time. I remember reading that in the Korean War, if a seriously wounded soldier got to a MASH unit alive, he had a 97% chance of survival.

[redgunamo]

Yes, it's certainly the case that competent medical treatment is only available in the UK because of a specific funding structure. Yes. In Germany, France, The Netherlands or Switzerland, for example, any injury at all results in immediate death.

Yes.

All those places have NHSs, I think. It's just America that doesn't.

Which is why nobody lives over there, I suppose. A man cuts himself shaving? Dead.

[Monty92]

The news breaks - 8 killed and 47 injured, or 25 killed and 100 injured, and one expects the death toll to increase significantly over the following few days, but it doesn't.

Now injuries from explosions, or from being mown down by a car, are likely to be pretty severe, aren't they? The lesson appears to be that if you can get to a hospital alive, no matter how mangled, quacks will be able to keep you alive.

wd advances in medical science.

I drove over Blackfriars Bridge last week and found myself wondering how many people I'd be able to mow down if it wasn't for those pesky Islamophobic concrete barriers. My strategy would be to target a concentrated group of pedestrians walking in the same direction as my car so they wouldn't see me coming, then ziz-zag wildly and hope to sweep up those who aren't able to react quickly enough after the initial impact (small children, OAPS and disablists).

It would also be funny seeing everyone's reaction when a big nosed jew stepped out the car.

I *may* have been thinking about this a little too deeply as I forgot to pay the Congestion charge and got a £65 fine through the post yesterday :-(

[Burney]

I drove over Blackfriars Bridge last week and found myself wondering how many people I'd be able to mow down if it wasn't for those pesky Islamophobic concrete barriers. My strategy would be to target a concentrated group of pedestrians walking in the same direction as my car so they wouldn't see me coming, then ziz-zag wildly and hope to sweep up those who aren't able to react quickly enough after the initial impact (small children, OAPS and disablists).

It would also be funny seeing everyone's reaction when a big nosed jew stepped out the car.

I *may* have been thinking about this a little too deeply as I forgot to pay the Congestion charge and got a £65 fine through the post yesterday :-(

I used to do this all the time when I played Grand Theft Auto (the original one). You never got as many people as you thought you would before the cops came and shot you.

[Sir C]

I drove over Blackfriars Bridge last week and found myself wondering how many people I'd be able to mow down if it wasn't for those pesky Islamophobic concrete barriers. My strategy would be to target a concentrated group of pedestrians walking in the same direction as my car so they wouldn't see you coming, then ziz-zag wildly and hope to sweep up those who aren't able to react quickly enough after the initial impact (small children, OAPS and disabelers).

It would also be funny seeing everyone's reaction when a big nosed jew stepped out the car.

I *may* have been thinking about this a little too deeply as I forgot to pay the Congestion charge and got a £65 fine through the post yesterday :-(

Funnily enough, watching Yottam Ottolenghi on TV in Tunisia the other day, I was reminded that a big-nosed jew looks just the same as a big-nosed Ayrab, so I suspect people would just assume you were one of those Allans.

There must be a way you can turn this easy disguise to your advantage.

[Burney]

Funnily enough, watching Yottam Ottolenghi on TV in Tunisia the other day, I was reminded that a big-nosed jew looks just the same as a big-nosed Ayrab, so I suspect people would just assume you were one of those Allans.

There must be a way you can turn this easy disguise to your advantage.

If he were a patriot, he could grow a big beard, infiltrate radical mosques and pretend to be radicalised, passing on vital intelligence about these people to the authorities.

[Monty92]

Funnily enough, watching Yottam Ottolenghi on TV in Tunisia the other day, I was reminded that a big-nosed jew looks just the same as a big-nosed Ayrab, so I suspect people would just assume you were one of those Allans.

There must be a way you can turn this easy disguise to your advantage.

I guess I could offer myself up to the intelligence services?

[Sir C]

If he were a patriot, he could grow a big beard, infiltrate radical mosques and pretend to be radicalised, passing on vital intelligence about these people to the authorities.

Well, he could, if he weren't a snivelling coward living his life in peace and prosperity courtesy of my sacrifices in two world wars :shrug:

[Burney]

I guess I could offer myself up to the intelligence services?

Yup. Just hang around Finsbury Park Mosque looking curious.

[Sir C]

I guess I could offer myself up to the intelligence services?

They'd have to train you out of talking like Shylock though. You can't wander into a mosque with a tea towel on your head going, "Salam aleikum already, :handwringing: oy ve vot about that 2 pence you borrowed from me last week, with interest the total is now 6 million pounds my boy." They'll suss you out :shrug:

[Burney]

Well, he could, if he weren't a snivelling coward living his life in peace and prosperity courtesy of my sacrifices in two world wars :shrug:

Two World Wars? I thought you were just WWII and the Nam. Have you had more regression therapy?

[Sir C]

Two World Wars? I thought you were just WWII and the Nam. Have you had more regression therapy?

:nod: I very much enjoyed my time in an SE5.

[Monty92]

Well, he could, if he weren't a snivelling coward living his life in peace and prosperity courtesy of my sacrifices in two world wars :shrug:

Actually, I'd say that being anti-Allanism when you live, work and socialise almost exclusively in liberal metropolitan circles is equally dangerous and courageous an endeavour as infiltrating a mosque.

So much as suggest at a dinner party that a terrorist has ever been motivated by Islamic religious scripture and you're literally taking your life in your hands, Jeff.

[Burney]

They'd have to train you out of talking like Shylock though. You can't wander into a mosque with a tea towel on your head going, "Salam aleikum already, :handwringing: oy ve vot about that 2 pence you borrowed from me last week, with interest the total is now 6 million pounds my boy." They'll suss you out :shrug:

Not least because of course usury is strictly haram.

[Sir C]

Actually, I'd say that being anti-Allanism when you live, work and socialise almost exclusively in liberal metropolitan circles is equally dangerous and courageous an endeavour as infiltrating a mosque.

If you speak your mind at a dinner party you're literally taking your life in your hands, Jeff.

You haven't started socialising with gentiles now, have you? :yikes:

[Burney]

Actually, I'd say that being anti-Allanism when you live, work and socialise almost exclusively in liberal metropolitan circles is equally dangerous and courageous an endeavour as infiltrating a mosque.

Speak your mind at a dinner party and you're literally taking your life in your hands, Jeff.

Yes. They might refuse to serve you in the artisanal bakery. :shudder:

[Ash]

:nod: I very much enjoyed my time in an SE5.

SE5? Camberwell?

[Burney]

SE5? Camberwell?

More Camel than Camberwell.

[Sir C]

SE5? Camberwell?

Postcodes are odd, aren't they? How come SE3 is Blackeath and Kidbrooke but SE5 Camberwell? And who's ever heard of SE4?

[Monty92]

Yes. They might refuse to serve you in the artisanal bakery. :shudder:

Honestly, I had dinner with two blokes last week who insisted that Islamic terrorists were simply psychopathic criminals, no different to any other murderous types.

Presumably he's never read the note left by Michael Adebolajo after butchering Lee Rigby (to pick just one of literally thousands of equivalent examples)

"To my beloved children, know that to fight Allah’s enemies is an obligation the proofs of which are so numerous that but a handful of any of them cuts out the bewitching tongues of the munafiqeen.
Do not spend your days in endless dispute with the cowardly and foolish if it means that it will delay you meeting Allah’s enemies on the battlefield. Sometimes the cowardly and foolish could be the dearest to you, so be prepared to turn away from them.
When you set out on this path, do not look left or right.
Seek shahada, oh my sons, so that we might be raised together and if it’s Allah’s decree that you are not to be in the hearts of the green birds, then be ready for a [deleted] to enter the university of Yousef. Sijn. Be patient there and be firm there and inshallah you will meet your Lord with Him pleased with you. Verily, Allah is with those who are patient.
If I live beyond this day and you find me talking other than this, then know that perhaps Allah has left me to stray.
May Allah guide your nation to the truth. Ameen."

[Burney]

Postcodes are odd, aren't they? How come SE3 is Blackeath and Kidbrooke but SE5 Camberwell? And who's ever heard of SE4?

Back when I cared about such things, it used to annoy me that Croydon didn't have a London postcode, but Norwood did. Always seemed completely arbitrary to me.

[Ash]

Postcodes are odd, aren't they? How come SE3 is Blackeath and Kidbrooke but SE5 Camberwell? And who's ever heard of SE4?

Alphabetical innit. Except the wons which are the most central.

[Burney]

Honestly, I had dinner with two blokes last week who insisted that Islamic terrorists were simply psychopathic criminals, no different to any other murderous types.

Presumably he's never read the note left by Michael Adebolajo after butchering Lee Rigby (to pick just one of literally thousands of equivalent examples)

"To my beloved children, know that to fight Allah’s enemies is an obligation the proofs of which are so numerous that but a handful of any of them cuts out the bewitching tongues of the munafiqeen.
Do not spend your days in endless dispute with the cowardly and foolish if it means that it will delay you meeting Allah’s enemies on the battlefield. Sometimes the cowardly and foolish could be the dearest to you, so be prepared to turn away from them.
When you set out on this path, do not look left or right.
Seek shahada, oh my sons, so that we might be raised together and if it’s Allah’s decree that you are not to be in the hearts of the green birds, then be ready for a [deleted] to enter the university of Yousef. Sijn. Be patient there and be firm there and inshallah you will meet your Lord with Him pleased with you. Verily, Allah is with those who are patient.
If I live beyond this day and you find me talking other than this, then know that perhaps Allah has left me to stray.
May Allah guide your nation to the truth. Ameen."

Well there is a fine line between religious fundamentalism and mental illness, of course. And it's a line that apologists for Islam are only too happy to exploit rather than say admit that Islam itself might be a wee bit problematic.

[Monty92]

Well there is a fine line between religious fundamentalism and mental illness, of course. And it's a line that apologists for Islam are only too happy to exploit rather than say admit that Islam itself might be a wee bit problematic.

I don't think there's a fine line between the two at all. You think the millions upon millions of Muslims across the world who hold fundamentalist views are mentally ill, including the masses of highly educated, highly functioning individuals among them?

[redgunamo]

I don't think there's a fine line between the two at all. You think the millions upon millions of Muslims across the world who hold fundamentalist views are mentally ill, including the masses of highly educated, highly functioning individuals among them?

Fair point, but you might want to believe that if you were in the mental health issues business. Everyone has the right to try and make a living, after all.

[redgunamo]

Well there is a fine line between religious fundamentalism and mental illness, of course. And it's a line that apologists for Islam are only too happy to exploit rather than say admit that Islam itself might be a wee bit problematic.

Not only apologists; practically everyone else too.

[Monty92]

Fair point, but you might want to believe that if you were in the mental health issues business. Everyone has the right to try and make a living, after all.

I'm not sure there's much money in propagating the idea that everyone who holds fundamentalist Islamic views is mentally ill. If anything, it's much more likely to lose you your job.

There may be some mileage in suggesting this about those who resort to actual violence, but they are still thankfully too rare to represent a viable business model.

[Burney]

I don't think there's a fine line between the two at all. You think the millions upon millions of Muslims across the world who hold fundamentalist views are mentally ill, including the masses of highly educated, highly functioning individuals among them?

Perhaps not so much a fine line as a grey area. Certainly, I would suggest that the Venn diagram between various types of mental disorders (from narcissism and psychopathy all the way up to paranoid schizophrenia) and religiously-inspired violence would contain a substantial degree of crossover. That isn't to say, however, that that absolves the perpetrators or the text that inspires and justifies them.

[redgunamo]

I'm not sure there's much money in propagating the idea that everyone who holds fundamentalist Islamic views is mentally ill. If anything, it's much more likely to lose you your job.

There may be some mileage in suggesting this about those who resort to actual violence, but they are still thankfully too rare to represent a viable business model.

Yes, and no. It's more the general thinking that everybody needs to take mental health questions more seriously, pay them more attention.

[Monty92]

Perhaps not so much a fine line as a grey area. Certainly, I would suggest that the Venn diagram between various types of mental disorders (from narcissism and psychopathy all the way up to paranoid schizophrenia) and religiously-inspired violence would contain a substantial degree of crossover. That isn't to say, however, that that absolves the perpetrators or the text that inspires and justifies them.

Doubtless. Though I was talking about fundamentalist views, not violence, which are typically held by the entirely sound-of-mind.

[SWv2]

You lot, you get a few terrorist attacks and you moan and bitch like you are the first people ever in the world to experience such shít.

Essentially you are nothing better than Americans.

[redgunamo]

You lot, you get a few terrorist attacks and you moan and bitch like you are the first people ever in the world to experience such shít.

Essentially you are nothing better than Americans.

That's what I'm saying; it's not really that big a deal. Unless you can make money out of it, then it's a very big deal indeed.

[Ash]

I'm not sure there's much money in propagating the idea that everyone who holds fundamentalist Islamic views is mentally ill. If anything, it's much more likely to lose you your job.

There may be some mileage in suggesting this about those who resort to actual violence, but they are still thankfully too rare to represent a viable business model.

Still might be interesting to set out a stall in front of a mosque or two with a sign saying "Get your mental health solutions here" and see how it flies.

[Peter]

Honestly, I had dinner with two blokes last week who insisted that Islamic terrorists were simply psychopathic criminals, no different to any other murderous types.

Presumably he's never read the note left by Michael Adebolajo after butchering Lee Rigby (to pick just one of literally thousands of equivalent examples)

"To my beloved children, know that to fight Allah’s enemies is an obligation the proofs of which are so numerous that but a handful of any of them cuts out the bewitching tongues of the munafiqeen.
Do not spend your days in endless dispute with the cowardly and foolish if it means that it will delay you meeting Allah’s enemies on the battlefield. Sometimes the cowardly and foolish could be the dearest to you, so be prepared to turn away from them.
When you set out on this path, do not look left or right.
Seek shahada, oh my sons, so that we might be raised together and if it’s Allah’s decree that you are not to be in the hearts of the green birds, then be ready for a [deleted] to enter the university of Yousef. Sijn. Be patient there and be firm there and inshallah you will meet your Lord with Him pleased with you. Verily, Allah is with those who are patient.
If I live beyond this day and you find me talking other than this, then know that perhaps Allah has left me to stray.
May Allah guide your nation to the truth. Ameen."

Right, but a bloke off his tits is going to spout some nonsense isn't he. Just happens he chose that mob.

There has to be something wrong with you if you believe that old cobblers and prepared to kill for it.

Nutters, the lot of them.

[Peter]

You lot, you get a few terrorist attacks and you moan and bitch like you are the first people ever in the world to experience such shít.

Essentially you are nothing better than Americans.

Errr..... we do have some previous experience of this you know.

[Ash]

Errr..... we do have some previous experience of this you know.

Yeah but those lads were practically gentlemen compared to these loons. Used to phone up some of the time to give advanced warning.

[Sir C]

Yeah but those lads were practically gentlemen compared to these loons. Used to phone up some of the time to give advanced warning.

:nod: Sometimes, of course, they couldn't remember the phone number. 999 is a tricky one when you've only got 10 fingers and two wellies to count on.

[Peter]

Yeah but those lads were practically gentlemen compared to these loons. Used to phone up some of the time to give advanced warning.

Well they were trying to make a point, weren't they. These fellas just want to kills as many of us as possible.

They are not very good at it.

[redgunamo]

Yeah but those lads were practically gentlemen compared to these loons. Used to phone up some of the time to give advanced warning.

Indeed. Sometimes they just used to do the advanced warning and not bother with the bomb. Hearts of gold really.

[Peter]

:nod: Sometimes, of course, they couldn't remember the phone number. 999 is a tricky one when you've only got 10 fingers and two wellies to count on.

No mobiles in them days. Poor ****s had to use public pay phones. Never pleasant

[Peter]

Indeed. Sometimes they just used to do the advanced warning and not bother with the bomb. Hearts of gold really.

Its so much cheaper as well.

[SWv2]

No mobiles in them days. Poor ****s had to use public pay phones. Never pleasant

Didn't always work as a thug may have vandalised it.

Then there was the issue with loose change. In summary a fúcking nightmare for your everyday terrorist just trying to go about his business.

I assume.

[Viva Prat Vegas]

:nod: Sometimes, of course, they couldn't remember the phone number. 999 is a tricky one when you've only got 10 fingers and two wellies to count on.

Tree fellers were needed to make the calls

[Sir C]

Tree fellers were needed to make the calls

:nod: "And dere's only two of us." :hehe:

They don't write 'em like that any more. Classic bantz.

[Peter]

Didn't always work as a thug may have vandalised it.

Then there was the issue with loose change. In summary a fúcking nightmare for your everyday terrorist just trying to go about his business.

I assume.

You could pretty much guarantee a strong smell of piss as well.

[Sir C]

You could pretty much guarantee a strong smell of piss as well.

Well, yes, but then the Mick would leave and it would be ok again :shrug:

I'm surprised at you p. They can't help pissing themselves; it's the 16 pints of Guinness and the ignorance that does it. :unclepaddy:

[SWv2]

Well, yes, but then the Mick would leave and it would be ok again :shrug:

I'm surprised at you p. They can't help pissing themselves; it's the 16 pints of Guinness and the ignorance that does it. :unclepaddy:

There are 2 chaps comatose on the pavement as I look out the window, what looks like cider cans and a white wine bottle beside them.

:hehe:

The tourists are kind of standing off them, curious. I suspect some think it is street art/performance.

[Viva Prat Vegas]

There are 2 chaps comatose on the pavement as I look out the window, what looks like cider cans and a white wine bottle beside them.

:hehe:

The tourists are kind of standing off them, curious. I suspect some think it is street art/performance.

:hehe:

Just another day

[Ash]

Indeed. Sometimes they just used to do the advanced warning and not bother with the bomb. Hearts of gold really.

:nod: This used to happen at my school in Lisburn. They'd ring up and say there was a bomb in the place and we'd all stand outside in the rain for two hours until the all-clear came. How we laughed.

[Sir C]

There are 2 chaps comatose on the pavement as I look out the window, what looks like cider cans and a white wine bottle beside them.

:hehe:

The tourists are kind of standing off them, curious. I suspect some think it is street art/performance.

Could be Brits on a stag, of course. :hehe:

[SWv2]

:nod: This used to happen at my school in Lisburn. They'd ring up and say there was a bomb in the place and we'd all stand outside in the rain for two hours until the all-clear came. How we laughed.

We had that as well, it was fun.

Then the small explosive device went off in the toilets beside the computer room. Less fun for the 1980s nerds who chose to do computer science.

[SWv2]

Could be Brits on a stag, of course. :hehe:

No, they are all in Temple Bar in one of 4 pubs.

[Herbette Chapman - aged 15]

Yeah but you had Hawkeye Pearce and Trapper John to take care of you and the promise of a crafty squeeze of Margret Hoolahan's tits during convalescence :nod:

[Monty92]

Right, but a bloke off his tits is going to spout some nonsense isn't he. Just happens he chose that mob.

There has to be something wrong with you if you believe that old cobblers and prepared to kill for it.

Nutters, the lot of them.

Yeah, funny how it "just happens" that all suicidal terrorists choose that mob.

Peter, at what point does belief tip into mental illness?

Is it the point at which their beliefs compel them to commit an atrocity? What about if you aren't prepared
to commit such acts yourself, but think others are justified in doing so based on the precise same beliefs ( as we know millions of Muslims do)?

Surely this would also meet your criteria of mental illness?

Millions upon millions of educated, high-functioning Muslims believe that Mohammad flew to the moon on a winged horse. In any context other than religion, if someone solemnly declared such a view I am pretty sure you would consider them mentally unhinged.

I'd be keen to know why you think the ability to sublimate your bat-**** mental beliefs makes you sane but acting on them does not.

[Ash]

Less fun for the 1980s nerds who chose to do computer science.

No need to get personal, old chap.

[Peter]

Yeah, funny how it "just happens" that all suicidal terrorists choose that mob.

Peter, at what point does belief tip into mental illness?

Is it the point at which their beliefs compel them to commit an atrocity? What about if you aren't prepared
to commit such acts yourself, but think others are justified in doing so based on the precise same beliefs ( as we know millions of Muslims do)?

Surely this would also meet your criteria of mental illness?

Millions upon millions of educated, high-functioning Muslims believe that Mohammad flew to the moon on a winged horse. In any context other than religion, if someone solemnly declared such a view I am pretty sure you would consider them mentally unhinged.

I'd be keen to know why you think the ability to sublimate your bat-**** mental beliefs makes you sane but acting on them does not.

History is littered with examples of people believing some pretty ****ed up stuff when it is drummed into them from birth, reinforced through peer and societal pressure and particularly where it is enshrined in common law, or at least in its practical application. Just fifty odd years ago large parts of America was still lynching black people, we deemed homosexuality illegal and using a tuba on a rock n roll record was considered acceptable.

There is a huge difference between belief and deed, obvious in this example as in many others. One may profess to believe that some fat bloke flew to the moon because his religion tells him it did. None of us are in a position to say whether that individual genuinely believes it or not. A Church of England Vicar reads from the bible- do you really think he believes all the **** in there? That he follows it to the letter, takes it as a literal instruction on how to live?

Scholars in every religion exist to interpret the word of God into something palatable to a modern audience, to transform a laughable statement into a valuable parable.

You must be able to see the difference between ‘believing’ that old **** and butchering strangers in the street. One makes you the product of your environment, unquestioning, perhaps even weak willed. The other makes you a murderer, and all but very few people will have been brought up in an environment that taught them that this is wrong, whatever else they may have been compelled to believe.

There is nothing wrong with stating that there is a problem with some schools of radical Islam, or that they sponsor, encourage, recruit terrorists. The problem comes when you attempt to blame the religion itself. One may as well chastise Christianity because of the Klan, or the Jewish faith because of Israel.

I have told you before, jokingly, that all religion is a form of mental illness. Yes, believing some of that **** as literal makes one appear rather crazy. However, when the same book promises you things you like the sound of if you are willing to believe it, it starts to sound less mad. Chuck in the fact that your parents and everyone around you believes it and it begins to look inevitable.

[Monty92]

History is littered with examples of people believing some pretty ****ed up stuff when it is drummed into them from birth, reinforced through peer and societal pressure and particularly where it is enshrined in common law, or at least in its practical application. Just fifty odd years ago large parts of America was still lynching black people, we deemed homosexuality illegal and using a tuba on a rock n roll record was considered acceptable.

There is a huge difference between belief and deed, obvious in this example as in many others. One may profess to believe that some fat bloke flew to the moon because his religion tells him it did. None of us are in a position to say whether that individual genuinely believes it or not. A Church of England Vicar reads from the bible- do you really think he believes all the **** in there? That he follows it to the letter, takes it as a literal instruction on how to live?

Scholars in every religion exist to interpret the word of God into something palatable to a modern audience, to transform a laughable statement into a valuable parable.

You must be able to see the difference between ‘believing’ that old **** and butchering strangers in the street. One makes you the product of your environment, unquestioning, perhaps even weak willed. The other makes you a murderer, and all but very few people will have been brought up in an environment that taught them that this is wrong, whatever else they may have been compelled to believe.

There is nothing wrong with stating that there is a problem with some schools of radical Islam, or that they sponsor, encourage, recruit terrorists. The problem comes when you attempt to blame the religion itself. One may as well chastise Christianity because of the Klan, or the Jewish faith because of Israel.

I have told you before, jokingly, that all religion is a form of mental illness. Yes, believing some of that **** as literal makes one appear rather crazy. However, when the same book promises you things you like the sound of if you are willing to believe it, it starts to sound less mad. Chuck in the fact that your parents and everyone around you believes it and it begins to look inevitable.
.
"All but very few people will have been brought up in an environment that taught them that [murder] is wrong"

Yes but millions upon millions are
brought up to believe Islam exists to conquer the world. If not directly, then by dint of the fact they are taught that the Koran is the literal word of god.

It is only in modern secular societies that we believe murder is wrong.
State-sanctioned murder of gay people and apostates is still murder according to our own moral code.

Do you believe the rulers of Iran,
Saudi Arabia et al are "mentally
ill" for killing people for acting against the rulings of Islam?

No, you don't. So why are
you so quick to assume a 22
year old who blows up
a pop concert for the precise same reason Iran and Saudi kill gays and apostates must be mentally ill?

[the splendor of antigone]

I have told you before, jokingly, that all religion is a form of mental illness. Yes, believing some of that **** as literal makes one appear rather crazy. However, when the same book promises you things you like the sound of if you are willing to believe it, it starts to sound less mad. Chuck in the fact that your parents and everyone around you believes it and it begins to look inevitable.

The real 'sickness unto death', is not usual story of the individual who is caught between the acknowledgement that death is the end, that there is nothing Beyond this material reality, and his needing to believe that our own demise isn't the last thing -- i.e. that there is another life beyond death, with its promise of redemption and a blissful eternity. The 'sickness unto death', rather, is the condition of someone who knows well enough that our material demise isn't the end, i.e. that we have immortal souls, but cannot face the maddening demands of this fact (the necesseity of abandoning fleeting aesthetic pleasure and tirelessly work for our salvation), and as a result desperately wants to belive that death IS the end -- that there is no divine unconditional demand exerting pressure on us.

In short: Are you sure you're not the mentally ill won :)

[Ash]

The real 'sickness unto death', is not usual story of the individual who is caught between the acknowledgement that death is the end, that there is nothing Beyond this material reality, and his needing to believe that our own demise isn't the last thing -- i.e. that there is another life beyond death, with its promise of redemption and a blissful eternity. The 'sickness unto death', rather, is the condition of someone who knows well enough that our material demise isn't the end, i.e. that we have immortal souls, but cannot face the maddening demands of this fact (the necesseity of abandoning fleeting aesthetic pleasure and tirelessly work for our salvation), and as a result desperately wants to belive that death IS the end -- that there is no divine unconditional demand exerting pressure on us.

In short: Are you sure you're not the mentally ill won :)

I have read this twice and it doesn't really work at all as a piece of communication.

Congrats, Splenders, first pwopah bit of wordkuntery we've had on here in ages.

[the splendor of antigone]

I have read this twice and it doesn't really work at all as a piece of communication.

Congrats, Splenders, first pwopah bit of wordkuntery we've had on here in ages.

The nonsense above does read rather spastically, I admit :hehe: Happy to be back, Ash :bow:

[Peter]

.
"All but very few people will have been brought up in an environment that taught them that [murder] is wrong"

Yes but millions upon millions are
brought up to believe Islam exists to conquer the world. If not directly, then by dint of the fact they are taught that the Koran is the literal word of god.

It is only in modern secular societies that we believe murder is wrong.
State-sanctioned murder of gay people and apostates is still murder according to our own moral code.

Do you believe the rulers of Iran,
Saudi Arabia et al are "mentally
ill" for killing people for acting against the rulings of Islam?

No, you don't. So why are
you so quick to assume a 22
year old who blows up
a pop concert for the precise same reason Iran and Saudi kill gays and apostates must be mentally ill?

Woaaah….slow down a minute.

Firstly, there is a difference between religious domination of a state and an individual act of terrorism. While the outcome (killing a non-believer or someone perceived to be in the wrong) may be the same, the action is not. Our moral code (if you mean the West) does NOT hold that state execution is the same as murder. You will find plenty of people in Britain who do not agree that it is. Of course, the US still practices it at state level.

Now, your moral or religious backdrop may decide which crimes are deserving of this punishment and indeed which activities are a crime. State sponsored murder of gay people is appalling- but is it appalling because it is murder or because they still believe it is a crime that merits punishment? I would argue both.

From a political perspective there is also a huge difference between exacting punishment within your own jurisdiction and going to another country where you have no authority and doing the same. I am not defending anything here, merely pointing out that they are not the same thing.

What you are really talking about is societies still based on religious dogma, strict interpretation and brutal punishment. We were still burning catholics in the 16th century. By the 19th century were just banning them from political office. We had the enlightenment, we had scientific and philosophical advances that questioned everything- the societies you mention took none of this on board, either through geopolitical-economic accident or through ruthless design.

It’s a tough sell to blame the religion itself for this, which is pretty much what you are doing if you wish to blame Islam for everything done in its name but absolve the other religions. Christianity exists most vociferously in the developed world where it sits alongside a modern set of values that hold archaic, rules, rituals and punishments to be unacceptable. Islam exists in its more extreme form in parts of the world where these modern values never took hold. Do you think this is purely because of Islam or related to other factors?

Apart from anything else, it tends to be ****ing hot in most of these places. I would get the hump every now and then.

[Peter]

The real 'sickness unto death', is not usual story of the individual who is caught between the acknowledgement that death is the end, that there is nothing Beyond this material reality, and his needing to believe that our own demise isn't the last thing -- i.e. that there is another life beyond death, with its promise of redemption and a blissful eternity. The 'sickness unto death', rather, is the condition of someone who knows well enough that our material demise isn't the end, i.e. that we have immortal souls, but cannot face the maddening demands of this fact (the necesseity of abandoning fleeting aesthetic pleasure and tirelessly work for our salvation), and as a result desperately wants to belive that death IS the end -- that there is no divine unconditional demand exerting pressure on us.

In short: Are you sure you're not the mentally ill won :)

Its funny. Monty thinks Muslims are mental for believing that the big Mo flew to the moon. In our era people are considered to be mental if they believe that Neil Armstrong didn’t.

Its all *******s isn’t it.

[Monty92]

Its funny. Monty thinks Muslims are mental for believing that the big Mo flew to the moon. In our era people are considered to be mental if they believe that Neil Armstrong didn’t.

Its all *******s isn’t it.

Erm, my entire argument is based on me not believeing they are mentally ill
for believing that. No more than someone who believes in horoscopes anyway.

[Peter]

Erm, my entire argument is based on me not believeing they are mentally ill
for believing that. No more than someone who believes in horoscopes anyway.

I only meant that you referred to it. Clearly I owe you an apology.

[Monty92]

I only meant that you referred to it. Clearly I owe you an apology.

That's fine, but I'm still confused by your position. Perhaps you can help me out if we take things step by step. So, am I right in saying that you believe:

1) That those who commit suicidal terrorist attacks must be mentally ill, since “no-one can possibly believe all that shít and be prepared to kill for it”. So the only explanation for their actions must be a chemical imbalance in their brains that led them to seek out a cause to justify their pre-disposition for murderous crime – and that cause happened to be religion. In other words, if religion hadn’t turned these people into murderous criminals, something else would have.

2) When it comes to people who live in societies still based around religious dogma, religiously-inspired fanaticism can be explained by the environment they were brought up in, rather than mental illness.

Anything I've misrepresented about your view here?

[Peter]

That's fine, but I'm still confused by your position. Perhaps you can help me out if we take things step by step. So, am I right in saying that you believe:

1) That those who commit suicidal terrorist attacks must be mentally ill, since “no-one can possibly believe all that shít and be prepared to kill for it”. So the only explanation for their actions must be a chemical imbalance in their brains that led them to seek out a cause to justify their pre-disposition for murderous crime – and that cause happened to be religion. In other words, if religion hadn’t turned these people into murderous criminals, something else would have.

2) When it comes to people who live in societies still based around religious dogma, religiously-inspired fanaticism can be explained by the environment they were brought up in, rather than mental illness.

Anything I've misrepresented about your view here?

I think my general point is that it is absurd to blame the entire religion for the actions of a tiny group of people who have been indoctrinated with a medieval interpretation of that religion’s very worst imperatives. And that you could apply the same to any religion if you look at a different period of history.

I don’t think it is fair to say that all these people are mentally ill but I do suspect that there is something seriously wrong with them. On the journey from curious young man finding out about Islam on his computer to standing outside a large event with a nailbomb in a rucksack there are a million points of departure, a thousand different avenues to go down. The fact that very, very few get this far suggests that it isn’t something that appeals to those with a semblance of balance in their lives. And thank god…. These forms of terrorism are a piece of piss to pull off. If there were a million muslims just itching to get over here and hire a van we would be scraping bodies off the pavements every hour. We aren’t, because there isn’t….. because despite the best efforts of radical clerics, one handed beardy ****s and a load of would-be gangstas in Toyotas rolling through the desert with a childish flag the prospect of blowing yourself up in order to kill a few teenage pop fans still seems to appeals to very, very few people, even among the ardent believers.

So no, your two points are not really a fair summation, if for no other reason than you contrast 1) where the subject is a murderer with 2) where he or she is simply a religious fanatic. Of course, in 2, it is not mental to believe what you were taught growing up and what everything in your environment tells you. Maybe that includes butchering people but if it is all you have ever known……. **** knows, maybe it is a perfectly sane and rational response. Neither of us would know, would we.

The original point was whether Islam itself is to blame for this, whether the religion itself is the inevitable root cause of all these events. I don’t think it is.

[Monty92]

I think my general point is that it is absurd to blame the entire religion for the actions of a tiny group of people who have been indoctrinated with a medieval interpretation of that religion’s very worst imperatives. And that you could apply the same to any religion if you look at a different period of history.

I don’t think it is fair to say that all these people are mentally ill but I do suspect that there is something seriously wrong with them. On the journey from curious young man finding out about Islam on his computer to standing outside a large event with a nailbomb in a rucksack there are a million points of departure, a thousand different avenues to go down. The fact that very, very few get this far suggests that it isn’t something that appeals to those with a semblance of balance in their lives. And thank god…. These forms of terrorism are a piece of piss to pull off. If there were a million muslims just itching to get over here and hire a van we would be scraping bodies off the pavements every hour. We aren’t, because there isn’t….. because despite the best efforts of radical clerics, one handed beardy ****s and a load of would-be gangstas in Toyotas rolling through the desert with a childish flag the prospect of blowing yourself up in order to kill a few teenage pop fans still seems to appeals to very, very few people, even among the ardent believers.

So no, your two points are not really a fair summation, if for no other reason than you contrast 1) where the subject is a murderer with 2) where he or she is simply a religious fanatic. Of course, in 2, it is not mental to believe what you were taught growing up and what everything in your environment tells you. Maybe that includes butchering people but if it is all you have ever known……. **** knows, maybe it is a perfectly sane and rational response. Neither of us would know, would we.

The original point was whether Islam itself is to blame for this, whether the religion itself is the inevitable root cause of all these events. I don’t think it is.

So, the behaviour of a father in Afghanistan who stones his own daughter to death for adultery, as prescribed by the hadith, is not the fault of Islam itself.

A citizen of Saudi Arabia who openly advocates death for apostasy, supports his government in applying such a law and expresses his enthusiasm for it by attending public executions, is not the fault of Islam, even though it explicitly prescribes this punishment.

A law-maker in Iran who in good conscience helps to implement the death penalty for homosexuality, because he believes Islamic scripture, which commands that homosexuals be killed, is the infallible word of God, but this is not the fault of Islam.

Even though all of these actions are at the direct behest of the religion you claim should not be blamed...

On another note, you wrongly assume I absolve other religions for their past (and enduring) moral failings. I do absolutely no such thing.

If I am singling out Islam, it is because Islam remains an intolerably dangerous religion (dangerous to other muslims far more than to non-muslims) whereas the others do not. That is not to say that other religions do not continue to do untold harm, but to no way near the same extent as Islam.

I think it’s incredible that you deny the primary role of religion in these matters and how different things would be without it. It is indisputable that without Islam (or certainly with LESS Islam) these societies would have had a far better chance of adopting modern western values. For starters, without Islam (or any other religion), no geopolitical events would have created a climate of religious devotion in which apostates are executed (by definition this is true, because without religion there would be no such thing as apostasy) and there’s every chance that women and gays might be spared by now as well.

The other point is that the geopolitics you rightly refer to as a factor in how these societies have failed to progress is also inextricably linked with religion. This is because Jihad is justified by Islamic scripture when Muslim societies are being attacked. Given this, how can you possibly separate geopolitics from religion, as you seem so keen to do?

[Ash]

The original point was whether Islam itself is to blame for this, whether the religion itself is the inevitable root cause of all these events. I don’t think it is.

Likewise the Crusades had nothing to do with Christianity, I presume. It is good to have your perspective aired, and comforting to think how infrequently a pop concert is blown up, but a global view might suggests that violence in the name of that religion is not so rare as you suggest. In the last week:

2017.07.11 (Nigeria) Eight villagers are forced to the ground and executed for defying Sharia.
2017.07.10 (India) Seven Hindu pilgrims, including five women, are massacred by heavily-armed Muslim terrorists.
2017.07.10 (Iraq) Seven children are executed and hung from lamp posts by the Islamic State.
2017.07.08 (Kenya) Nine villagers are beheaded 'like chickens' by Islamic extremists.
2017.07.07 (Egypt) Islamic militants stage a brutal assault on a checkpoint that beings with a suicide blast and leaves two dozen dead.
2017.07.06 (India) A 65-year-old Hindu is stabbed to death during a Muslim riot over an 'offensive' Facebook post.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Finally, apostasy. Remind yourself what the punishment for apostasy is in Islam. Then ask yourself if that really is the kind of thing we can pretend is compatible with western enlightenment values.

[redgunamo]

Likewise the Crusades had nothing to do with Christianity, I presume. It is good to have your perspective aired, and comforting to think how infrequently a pop concert is blown up, but a global view might suggests that violence in the name of that religion is not so rare as you suggest. In the last week:

2017.07.11 (Nigeria) Eight villagers are forced to the ground and executed for defying Sharia.
2017.07.10 (India) Seven Hindu pilgrims, including five women, are massacred by heavily-armed Muslim terrorists.
2017.07.10 (Iraq) Seven children are executed and hung from lamp posts by the Islamic State.
2017.07.08 (Kenya) Nine villagers are beheaded 'like chickens' by Islamic extremists.
2017.07.07 (Egypt) Islamic militants stage a brutal assault on a checkpoint that beings with a suicide blast and leaves two dozen dead.
2017.07.06 (India) A 65-year-old Hindu is stabbed to death during a Muslim riot over an 'offensive' Facebook post.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Finally, apostasy. Remind yourself what the punishment for apostasy is in Islam. Then ask yourself if that really is the kind of thing we can pretend is compatible with western enlightenment values.

People were killing each other long before that too though, in fairness.

[Sir C]

Likewise the Crusades had nothing to do with Christianity, I presume. It is good to have your perspective aired, and comforting to think how infrequently a pop concert is blown up, but a global view might suggests that violence in the name of that religion is not so rare as you suggest. In the last week:

2017.07.11 (Nigeria) Eight villagers are forced to the ground and executed for defying Sharia.
2017.07.10 (India) Seven Hindu pilgrims, including five women, are massacred by heavily-armed Muslim terrorists.
2017.07.10 (Iraq) Seven children are executed and hung from lamp posts by the Islamic State.
2017.07.08 (Kenya) Nine villagers are beheaded 'like chickens' by Islamic extremists.
2017.07.07 (Egypt) Islamic militants stage a brutal assault on a checkpoint that beings with a suicide blast and leaves two dozen dead.
2017.07.06 (India) A 65-year-old Hindu is stabbed to death during a Muslim riot over an 'offensive' Facebook post.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Finally, apostasy. Remind yourself what the punishment for apostasy is in Islam. Then ask yourself if that really is the kind of thing we can pretend is compatible with western enlightenment values.

Ah ha! So you agree that we should go in there and knock the living piss out of them?

At last you have seen the light, a!

[Monty92]

Likewise the Crusades had nothing to do with Christianity, I presume. It is good to have your perspective aired, and comforting to think how infrequently a pop concert is blown up, but a global view might suggests that violence in the name of that religion is not so rare as you suggest. In the last week:

2017.07.11 (Nigeria) Eight villagers are forced to the ground and executed for defying Sharia.
2017.07.10 (India) Seven Hindu pilgrims, including five women, are massacred by heavily-armed Muslim terrorists.
2017.07.10 (Iraq) Seven children are executed and hung from lamp posts by the Islamic State.
2017.07.08 (Kenya) Nine villagers are beheaded 'like chickens' by Islamic extremists.
2017.07.07 (Egypt) Islamic militants stage a brutal assault on a checkpoint that beings with a suicide blast and leaves two dozen dead.
2017.07.06 (India) A 65-year-old Hindu is stabbed to death during a Muslim riot over an 'offensive' Facebook post.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Finally, apostasy. Remind yourself what the punishment for apostasy is in Islam. Then ask yourself if that really is the kind of thing we can pretend is compatible with western enlightenment values.

Indeed. One wonders why Peter is so keen to differentiate western terrorists from their counterparts in societies where religious dogma still prevails? Most western terrorists have spent time in such societies, so why should they not also be considered products of the same environment?

Peter, you point to how few terrorists there are in spite of the efforts of fundamentalist Imams to persuade them and how this shows that the religion is not to blame. Again, why do you only count western terrorism in your workings?

Also, how would your smugness be looking if all of the foiled attacks of recent years had been successful in the west? Would you be quite so ready to point to how few of them are prepared to die and murder for their beliefs?

[Burney]

Likewise the Crusades had nothing to do with Christianity, I presume. It is good to have your perspective aired, and comforting to think how infrequently a pop concert is blown up, but a global view might suggests that violence in the name of that religion is not so rare as you suggest. In the last week:

2017.07.11 (Nigeria) Eight villagers are forced to the ground and executed for defying Sharia.
2017.07.10 (India) Seven Hindu pilgrims, including five women, are massacred by heavily-armed Muslim terrorists.
2017.07.10 (Iraq) Seven children are executed and hung from lamp posts by the Islamic State.
2017.07.08 (Kenya) Nine villagers are beheaded 'like chickens' by Islamic extremists.
2017.07.07 (Egypt) Islamic militants stage a brutal assault on a checkpoint that beings with a suicide blast and leaves two dozen dead.
2017.07.06 (India) A 65-year-old Hindu is stabbed to death during a Muslim riot over an 'offensive' Facebook post.
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Finally, apostasy. Remind yourself what the punishment for apostasy is in Islam. Then ask yourself if that really is the kind of thing we can pretend is compatible with western enlightenment values.

Look closer to home. 250 years after the Enlightenment and 400 years after the Reformation, people are being killed in Europe for blasphemy again. Why? Islam.

UK: Salman Rushdie and his publishers terrorised, attacked and in one case murdered for 'blaspheming'.
Holland: Pim Fortuyn murdered for publicly opposing Islam, Theo van Gogh slaughtered for 'blaspheming'; Ayan Hirsi Ali chased out of the country, becoming the first refugee from Western Europe since the Second World War.
France: Charlie Hebdo's staff murdered for blasphemy

This is happening for one reason and one reason only: the existence of large numbers of devout and practising muslims in our countries.

Islam IS the disease. The individuals are just symptoms.

[Monty92]

Indeed. One wonders why Peter is so keen to differentiate western terrorists from their counterparts in societies where religious dogma still prevails? Most western terrorists have spent time in such societies, so why should they not also be considered products of the same environment?

Peter, you point to how few terrorists there are in spite of the efforts of fundamentalist Imams to persuade them and how this shows that the religion is not to blame. Again, why do you only count western terrorism in your workings?

Also, how would your smugness be looking if all of the foiled attacks of recent years had been successful in the west? Would you be quite so ready to point to how few of them are prepared to die and murder for their beliefs?

Peter, what about the estimated 12-15 Muslim honour killings that take place in the UK each year? Or the gang-raping of literally thousands of young girls across the UK by Muslims that is now coming to light?

Mentally ill or a product of their environment? Just an exception to the rule that Islam cannot be blamed?

[Burney]

Indeed. One wonders why Peter is so keen to differentiate western terrorists from their counterparts in societies where religious dogma still prevails? Most western terrorists have spent time in such societies, so why should they not also be considered products of the same environment?

Peter, you point to how few terrorists there are in spite of the efforts of fundamentalist Imams to persuade them and how this shows that the religion is not to blame. Again, why do you only count western terrorism in your workings?

Also, how would your smugness be looking if all of the foiled attacks of recent years had been successful in the west? Would you be quite so ready to point to how few of them are prepared to die and murder for their beliefs?

Have you read Douglas Murray's book yet? Depressing, but vital reading.

At least you lot can bugger off to Israel when it all goes tits up. :-(

[Sir C]

Have you read Douglas Murray's book yet? Depressing, but vital reading.

At least you lot can bugger off to Israel when it all goes tits up. :-(

When it properly goes off, who is Pakistan likely to be lending a few warheads? I don't fancy being in Tel Aviv. :-(

[Monty92]

Have you read Douglas Murray's book yet? Depressing, but vital reading.

At least you lot can bugger off to Israel when it all goes tits up. :-(

Not yet, but it's next to my bed.

I hope it actually gives a credible account of how he forsees the death of Europe taking place step by step (beyond the obvious). In his recent podcast outings he's not really volunteered this insight.

[Peter]

So, the behaviour of a father in Afghanistan who stones his own daughter to death for adultery, as prescribed by the hadith, is not the fault of Islam itself.

A citizen of Saudi Arabia who openly advocates death for apostasy, supports his government in applying such a law and expresses his enthusiasm for it by attending public executions, is not the fault of Islam, even though it explicitly prescribes this punishment.

A law-maker in Iran who in good conscience helps to implement the death penalty for homosexuality, because he believes Islamic scripture, which commands that homosexuals be killed, is the infallible word of God, but this is not the fault of Islam.

Even though all of these actions are at the direct behest of the religion you claim should not be blamed...

On another note, you wrongly assume I absolve other religions for their past (and enduring) moral failings. I do absolutely no such thing.

If I am singling out Islam, it is because Islam remains an intolerably dangerous religion (dangerous to other muslims far more than to non-muslims) whereas the others do not. That is not to say that other religions do not continue to do untold harm, but to no way near the same extent as Islam.

I think it’s incredible that you deny the primary role of religion in these matters and how different things would be without it. It is indisputable that without Islam (or certainly with LESS Islam) these societies would have had a far better chance of adopting modern western values. For starters, without Islam (or any other religion), no geopolitical events would have created a climate of religious devotion in which apostates are executed (by definition this is true, because without religion there would be no such thing as apostasy) and there’s every chance that women and gays might be spared by now as well.

The other point is that the geopolitics you rightly refer to as a factor in how these societies have failed to progress is also inextricably linked with religion. This is because Jihad is justified by Islamic scripture when Muslim societies are being attacked. Given this, how can you possibly separate geopolitics from religion, as you seem so keen to do?

So we can agree on one thing then… other religions have potential for untold harm and are capable of being fundamentally separated from modern values by those who wish to do so.

This leads neatly on to the area where we seem to disagree. That it is not the fault of Islam but the fault of an interpretation of Islam- an interpretation that every single Muslim I have ever met, from Palmers Green to Las Vegas via Malaysia, does not share. I blame this interpretation every bit as much as you do. The difference between us is that I seem to be willing to divorce this interpretation from Islam itself and the very many more modern, peaceful interpretations accepting by hundreds of millions of muslims throughout the globe.

I take this to mean that Islam, like every other potentially lethal and ludicrous religion, is capable of change, of modernisation and of a more generous and peaceful interpretation that doesn’t require regular murder.

Look at Malaysia. A Muslim country. Homosexuality is illegal, particularly in public, and carries a prison sentence. Not stoning to death. And the attitude is slowly changing. The country is not becoming ‘less Muslim’. Simply more accepting (albeit slowly) of a modern world that it wishes to be a part of. You could argue that this is at least partly due to a western influence over two centuries, and in fact it is.

On the subject of geopolitics, you seem to be trying to sell Islam as the sole barrier to an acceptance of western values. Is it a barrier? Yes, of course. Not just as a religion but because it forms the backbone of their moral code, their notions of justice and their form of government. But also note that all the examples you give come from a certain part of the world where geopolitics has played havoc with people’s lives for generations. There is a distinct difference, geopolitically, between Malaysia and Saudi Arabia- many, actually. It is a little naïve to think that religion is the only one.

Either way….the fact remains that those countries adopting a more modern interpretation of Islam are not causing us problems. This is how religion is supposed to work in the modern world. Perhaps the more complicated point is which interpretation (the modern or the fundamental) is the real *******isation of Islam- but let us not get into that…..

[Burney]

Not yet, but it's next to my bed.

I hope it actually gives a credible account of how he forsees the death of Europe taking place step by step (beyond the obvious). In his recent podcast outings he's not really volunteered this insight.

As they put it themselves: 'Thanks to your democratic laws we will invade you; thanks to our religious laws, we will dominate you.'
It's pretty much already happening. They have been allowed in in ever greater numbers (and are still coming), they are out-breeding us and, as their numbers increase, so will their political weight, meaning it will become ever less likely that there will be the political consensus to stop the immigration of more and more of them. Equally, their democratic weight will start to fundamentally alter our political, cultural and intellectual landscape to suit them. Eventually, no democratic government will be able to act to prevent the inevitable.

[Burney]

When it properly goes off, who is Pakistan likely to be lending a few warheads? I don't fancy being in Tel Aviv. :-(

I'd fancy the Israelis to be pretty alive to that sort of threat. They don't tend to fùck about when it comes to that sort of thing.

[Burney]

So we can agree on one thing then… other religions have potential for untold harm and are capable of being fundamentally separated from modern values by those who wish to do so.

This leads neatly on to the area where we seem to disagree. That it is not the fault of Islam but the fault of an interpretation of Islam- an interpretation that every single Muslim I have ever met, from Palmers Green to Las Vegas via Malaysia, does not share. I blame this interpretation every bit as much as you do. The difference between us is that I seem to be willing to divorce this interpretation from Islam itself and the very many more modern, peaceful interpretations accepting by hundreds of millions of muslims throughout the globe.

I take this to mean that Islam, like every other potentially lethal and ludicrous religion, is capable of change, of modernisation and of a more generous and peaceful interpretation that doesn’t require regular murder.

Look at Malaysia. A Muslim country. Homosexuality is illegal, particularly in public, and carries a prison sentence. Not stoning to death. And the attitude is slowly changing. The country is not becoming ‘less Muslim’. Simply more accepting (albeit slowly) of a modern world that it wishes to be a part of. You could argue that this is at least partly due to a western influence over two centuries, and in fact it is.

On the subject of geopolitics, you seem to be trying to sell Islam as the sole barrier to an acceptance of western values. Is it a barrier? Yes, of course. Not just as a religion but because it forms the backbone of their moral code, their notions of justice and their form of government. But also note that all the examples you give come from a certain part of the world where geopolitics has played havoc with people’s lives for generations. There is a distinct difference, geopolitically, between Malaysia and Saudi Arabia- many, actually. It is a little naïve to think that religion is the only one.

Either way….the fact remains that those countries adopting a more modern interpretation of Islam are not causing us problems. This is how religion is supposed to work in the modern world. Perhaps the more complicated point is which interpretation (the modern or the fundamental) is the real *******isation of Islam- but let us not get into that…..

If you want to say all religions are bad, I might agree with you.

If you want to pretend some religions aren't worse than others, we have an issue. Only a fool would pretend that Anglicanism or Buddhism are as dangerous as Islam.

[Ash]

I take this to mean that Islam, like every other potentially lethal and ludicrous religion, is capable of change, of modernisation and of a more generous and peaceful interpretation that doesn’t require regular murder.

:nod: Thank god for modern, secular, liberal Turkey.

Oh :-(

[Monty92]

So we can agree on one thing then… other religions have potential for untold harm and are capable of being fundamentally separated from modern values by those who wish to do so.

This leads neatly on to the area where we seem to disagree. That it is not the fault of Islam but the fault of an interpretation of Islam- an interpretation that every single Muslim I have ever met, from Palmers Green to Las Vegas via Malaysia, does not share. I blame this interpretation every bit as much as you do. The difference between us is that I seem to be willing to divorce this interpretation from Islam itself and the very many more modern, peaceful interpretations accepting by hundreds of millions of muslims throughout the globe.

I take this to mean that Islam, like every other potentially lethal and ludicrous religion, is capable of change, of modernisation and of a more generous and peaceful interpretation that doesn’t require regular murder.

Look at Malaysia. A Muslim country. Homosexuality is illegal, particularly in public, and carries a prison sentence. Not stoning to death. And the attitude is slowly changing. The country is not becoming ‘less Muslim’. Simply more accepting (albeit slowly) of a modern world that it wishes to be a part of. You could argue that this is at least partly due to a western influence over two centuries, and in fact it is.

On the subject of geopolitics, you seem to be trying to sell Islam as the sole barrier to an acceptance of western values. Is it a barrier? Yes, of course. Not just as a religion but because it forms the backbone of their moral code, their notions of justice and their form of government. But also note that all the examples you give come from a certain part of the world where geopolitics has played havoc with people’s lives for generations. There is a distinct difference, geopolitically, between Malaysia and Saudi Arabia- many, actually. It is a little naïve to think that religion is the only one.

Either way….the fact remains that those countries adopting a more modern interpretation of Islam are not causing us problems. This is how religion is supposed to work in the modern world. Perhaps the more complicated point is which interpretation (the modern or the fundamental) is the real *******isation of Islam- but let us not get into that…..

To quibble about whether it is the religion or the interpretation of that religion is a total red herring and would not be applied in any other context than a discussion about religion.

Let's just imagine if someone said Mein Kampf should not be blamed for its role in the rise of the Third Reich because it said some positive things about the importance of national identity and social cohesion and it's not the author's fault that a load of people have taken all the bad stuff literally...

The one thing we can agree on is that Islam could potentially, conceivably, change and reform. The irony is that your attitude, in twisting yourself in knots to absolve the core religion itself of its direct role in creating Islamic fundamentalism, is making it much, much harder to undergo such a reform.

[Peter]

If you want to say all religions are bad, I might agree with you.

If you want to pretend some religions aren't worse than others, we have an issue. Only a fool would pretend that Anglicanism or Buddhism are as dangerous as Islam.

I don’t think I am pretending that. I think I am saying that some religions have been exposed to a lot more light and moderate thought and have managed to find themselves a civilised place in the background of our societies- apart from parts of American where bible bashing ****s constitute a worryingly large political lobby.

We can all argue about how common the fundamental interpretation of Islam is, and how dangerous. However, if you wish to argue that there are no good muslims, that the whole religion is inherently evil and must be banished…well, then I am afraid I have to disagree. I can live with the ridicule.

[Burney]

:nod: Thank god for modern, secular, liberal Turkey.

Oh :-(

The western hope that a more liberal, 'enlightened' version of Islam will emerge from some sort of Islamic reformation rather falls down on the fact that Islamic history is littered with movements to do just that, only to be defeated by the regressive, backwards and violent forms of the religion.

[redgunamo]

As they put it themselves: 'Thanks to your democratic laws we will invade you; thanks to our religious laws, we will dominate you.'
It's pretty much already happening. They have been allowed in in ever greater numbers (and are still coming), they are out-breeding us and, as their numbers increase, so will their political weight, meaning it will become ever less likely that there will be the political consensus to stop the immigration of more and more of them. Equally, their democratic weight will start to fundamentally alter our political, cultural and intellectual landscape to suit them. Eventually, no democratic government will be able to act to prevent the inevitable.

In fairness, even Lonesome George and Gu Gu the polar bear have outbred most of us. Well, most of you anyway. So you've really only yourselves to blame.

[Monty92]

I don’t think I am pretending that. I think I am saying that some religions have been exposed to a lot more light and moderate thought and have managed to find themselves a civilised place in the background of our societies- apart from parts of American where bible bashing ****s constitute a worryingly large political lobby.

We can all argue about how common the fundamental interpretation of Islam is, and how dangerous. However, if you wish to argue that there are no good muslims, that the whole religion is inherently evil and must be banished…well, then I am afraid I have to disagree. I can live with the ridicule.

No-one worth listening or talking to has ever said there are no good muslims, that the whole religion is inherently evil and must be banished, so this is a big fat straw man.

[Pokster]

No-one worth listening or talking to has ever said there are no good muslims, that the whole religion is inherently evil and must be banished, so this is a big fat straw man.

A few AWIMBER's have said that all Muslims should be expelled from this country... the fact 1 of them was Rich does help your "no-one worth listening to" comment

[Sir C]

No-one worth listening or talking to has ever said there are no good muslims, that the whole religion is inherently evil and must be banished, so this is a big fat straw man.

Without wishing to ecome hysterical, though, one does the suspicion that the day will come when one will have to choose sides. Everyone will have to choose sides.

[Monty92]

A few AWIMBER's have said that all Muslims should be expelled from this country... the fact 1 of them was Rich does help your "no-one worth listening to" comment

I think we can all be forgiven for expressing bigoted anti-muslim sentiments in the heat of the moment, given what we've had to endure at the exclusive hands of Muslims.

The difference is that apologists like Peter spout their damaging and dangerous views as part of a sober analysis of the situation.

[Burney]

I don’t think I am pretending that. I think I am saying that some religions have been exposed to a lot more light and moderate thought and have managed to find themselves a civilised place in the background of our societies- apart from parts of American where bible bashing ****s constitute a worryingly large political lobby.

We can all argue about how common the fundamental interpretation of Islam is, and how dangerous. However, if you wish to argue that there are no good muslims, that the whole religion is inherently evil and must be banished…well, then I am afraid I have to disagree. I can live with the ridicule.

Societies and cultures don't exist independent of their religious foundations.

The fact is that the west has evolved into a better, more just, kinder and more liberal place to live precisely because of the inheritance of Christ's teachings and their emphasis on justice, kindness, pity, self-sacrifice and mercy and the way in which those ideals have informed our laws.

By contrast, many Islamic societies are worse places to live precisely because many of the teachings of the Koran are abhorrent, misogynistic, violent and barbaric.

[Ash]

As they put it themselves: 'Thanks to your democratic laws we will invade you; thanks to our religious laws, we will dominate you.'
It's pretty much already happening. They have been allowed in in ever greater numbers (and are still coming), they are out-breeding us and, as their numbers increase, so will their political weight, meaning it will become ever less likely that there will be the political consensus to stop the immigration of more and more of them. Equally, their democratic weight will start to fundamentally alter our political, cultural and intellectual landscape to suit them. Eventually, no democratic government will be able to act to prevent the inevitable.

Sort-of what happened to Kosovo. Once the heart of Serbia.

[Burney]

I think we can all be forgiven for expressing bigoted anti-muslim sentiments in the heat of the moment, given what we've had to endure at the exclusive hands of Muslims.

The difference is that apologists like Peter spout their damaging and dangerous views as part of a sober analysis of the situation.

I don't have anything against individuals, but if you said I could press a button that meant this country had never had a significant muslim population, I'd press it like a shot.

I'd miss the shawarma, but one has to make sacrifices.

[Peter]

To quibble about whether it is the religion or the interpretation of that religion is a total red herring and would not be applied in any other context than a discussion about religion.

Imagine if someone said Mein Kampf should not be blamed for its role in the rise of the Third Reich because it said some positive things about the importance of national identity and social cohesion and it's not the author's fault that a load of people have taken all the bad stuff literally.

The one thing we can agree on is that Islam could potentially, conceivably, change and reform. The irony is that your attitude, in twisting yourself in knots to absolve the core religion itself of its direct role in creating Islamic fundamentalism, is making it much, much harder to undergo such a reform.

What a thoroughly ludicrous example that is. And the argument does exist outside of religion. Is Karl Marx solely to blame for Stalin? Is Jeremy Corbyn all the fault of the Fabian Society?

And no, it is not a red herring at all. For ****'s sake, you live in a nation that saw centuries of internal conflict revolve around two schisms in the same religion. It isn't my fault that you can't see the difference between the fundamental 'word of God' approach and the modern, scholarly interpretation. Nor how religions are hijacked to justify a status quo or a belief- is Christianity to blame for the KKK? You want to blame Dot Cotton for that?

You now seem to be saying that the religion itself played a direct role in creating its fundamentalist interpretation which is akin to acknowledging the central role of beef in creating a burger. My original point to you was that if you insist on blaming the core religion for everything done in its name then it is only fair to acknowledge the same point with every religion.

[Peter]

No-one worth listening or talking to has ever said there are no good muslims, that the whole religion is inherently evil and must be banished, so this is a big fat straw man.

Hence, IF. IF.

And the only way to avoid this straw man is to acknowledge the difference between interpretations of the religion, and the existence of modern, civilised muslims. Unfortunately, you claim that is a red herring.

[Peter]

I think we can all be forgiven for expressing bigoted anti-muslim sentiments in the heat of the moment, given what we've had to endure at the exclusive hands of Muslims.

The difference is that apologists like Peter spout their damaging and dangerous views as part of a sober analysis of the situation.

Apologist??

**** me.

[SWv2]

I think we can all be forgiven for expressing bigoted anti-muslim sentiments in the heat of the moment, given what we've had to endure at the exclusive hands of Muslims.

The difference is that apologists like Peter spout their damaging and dangerous views as part of a sober analysis of the situation.

What have you had to endure?

[Burney]

What a thoroughly ludicrous example that is. And the argument does exist outside of religion. Is Karl Marx solely to blame for Stalin? Is Jeremy Corbyn all the fault of the Fabian Society?

And no, it is not a red herring at all. For ****'s sake, you live in a nation that saw centuries of internal conflict revolve around two schisms in the same religion. It isn't my fault that you can't see the difference between the fundamental 'word of God' approach and the modern, scholarly interpretation. Nor how religions are hijacked to justify a status quo or a belief- is Christianity to blame for the KKK? You want to blame Dot Cotton for that?

You now seem to be saying that the religion itself played a direct role in creating its fundamentalist interpretation which is akin to acknowledging the central role of beef in creating a burger. My original point to you was that if you insist on blaming the core religion for everything done in its name then it is only fair to acknowledge the same point with every religion.

But I'm happy to acknowledge that point about every religion. :shrug: However, that does not absolve Islam. Equally, no other religions today represent a threat to me or to my society except Islam, so why would I bother equivocating about the iniquities of other faiths that don't threaten me or my way of life?

[Burney]

Sort-of what happened to Kosovo. Once the heart of Serbia.

Basically, yes. But nobody wants to face up to the fact that a society will alter irrevocably (and for the worse) if you shift the demographics in favour of a particular cultural or religious group. The fantasy has always been that an Eritrean or an Afghan in Britain will magically become British, whereas in fact all that will happen is that, if there are enough of them, they will fundamentally alter what 'Britain' or 'British' means.

This sort of wishful thinking is bizarre. If an Englishman lives in China, does anyone in their right mind think he'll become Chinese? Of course not.

[Monty92]

What have you had to endure?

Sitting on train carriages with the ****s is bad enough.

Ash says he doesn't enjoy walking around London so much anymore, due to the fear of getting mowed down.

Sir Charlie can't even escape them by flying First Class.

[Peter]

But I'm happy to acknowledge that point about every religion. :shrug: However, that does not absolve Islam. Equally, no other religions today represent a threat to me or to my society except Islam, so why would I bother equivocating about the iniquities of other faiths that don't threaten me or my way of life?

Ok. Which was the original point, and wasn't made to you.

[redgunamo]

Societies and cultures don't exist independent of their religious foundations.

The fact is that the west has evolved into a better, more just, kinder and more liberal place to live precisely because of the inheritance of Christ's teachings and their emphasis on justice, kindness, pity, self-sacrifice and mercy and the way in which those ideals have informed our laws.

By contrast, many Islamic societies are worse places to live precisely because many of the teachings of the Koran are abhorrent, misogynistic, violent and barbaric.

Still, nothing to get excited about though, is it. My own "teachings" were denounced as abhorrent, misogynistic, violent and barbaric the other day when I questioned the wisdom of buying a new car just to motor the wife about in. One that doesn't reek of dog piss.


We've been involved in real wars abroad lately with hundreds of thousands of casualties and everyone was happy to leave us standing there with just our cocks in our hands (as the man said), but now a few disco dancers and shoppers get done in and everyone's up on their hind legs.

Does anyone at home actually have the bottle to fight back :shrug:

[Peter]

Sitting on train carriages with the ****s is bad enough.

Ash says he doesn't enjoy walking around London so much anymore, due to the fear of getting mowed down.

Sir Charlie can't even escape them by flying First Class.

And you stalk Muslims in Hamstead to get your photo taken with them. You put your children at risk for a selfie.

You fiend!

[Sir C]

Sitting on train carriages with the ****s is bad enough.

Ash says he doesn't enjoy walking around London so much anymore, due to the fear of getting mowed down.

Sir Charlie can't even escape them by flying First Class.

Business, old chap. One doesn't wish to be profligate. The kind of chap who would be vulgar enough to explode himself would never raise the money required to fly in Business, so i feel perfectly safe.

[Burney]

Still, nothing to get excited about though, is it. My own "teachings" were denounced as abhorrent, misogynistic, violent and barbaric the other day when I questioned the wisdom of buying a new car just to motor the wife about in. One that doesn't reek of dog piss.


We've been involved in real wars abroad lately with hundreds of thousands of casualties and everyone was happy to leave us standing there with just our cocks in our hands (as the man said), but now a few disco dancers and shoppers get done in and everyone's up on their hind legs.

Does anyone at home actually have the bottle to fight back :shrug:

It's the lack of will that's the problem. We Europeans live in self-negating societies where it has become unacceptable to acknowledge the value and superiority of our culture even as the rest of the world tacitly acknowledges those superiorities by flocking here in their millions from their benighted shītholes.

Even when we fight wars, we fight them for the wrong reasons, in the wrong places and against the wrong people because we're too scared to be honest about what we're trying to achieve. Or - which is worse - we're not really sure ourselves.

[Monty92]

Ok. Which was the original point, and wasn't made to you.

I am happy to do exactly the same and never said otherwise.

Actually the original point was whether terrorists are mentally ill. You seem to be saying they must be because they can't possibly believe all that rubbish and be prepared to kill for it. I then asked you if you feel the same about states that kill gays and apostates. You said that's different because state sanctioned executions are not murder and anyway these laws are only in place because of geopolitics turning religion bad.

I then asked you about why western terrorists who have lived/visited such societies are mentally ill and not simply a product of their environment too. I also asked about muslim honour killings and muslim gang rapes in the UK and which category these fit in. I also asked about fathers who stone their own daughters to death and whether they are mentally ill or a product of their environment. Any chance of a response?

[redgunamo]

And you stalk Muslims in Hamstead to get your photo taken with them. You put your children at risk for a selfie.

You fiend!

And Mesut doesn't even score that many goals either :-(

[Burney]

I am happy to do exactly the same and never said otherwise.

Actually the original point was whether terrorists are mentally ill. You seem to be saying they must be because they can't possibly believe all that rubbish and be prepared to kill for it. I then asked you if you feel the same about states that murder gays and apostates. You said that's different because state sanctioned executions are not murder and anyway these laws are only in place because of geopolitics.

I then asked you about why terrorists who have lived/visited such societies are not similarly a product of their environment. I also asked about muslim honour killings and muslim gang rapes in the UK and which category these fit in. I also asked about fathers who stone their own daughters to death and whether they are mentally ill or a product of their environment. Any chance of a response?

This is the other thing: it has become almost impossible for yer modern, secular, liberal intellectual to comprehend the idea of all-encompassing faith that directs one's actions. The idea of someone actually believing in things like heaven, hell and 72 houris is too much for the modern mind. Which is odd, since mankind has been convinced of such things far longer in historical terms than he hasn't.

It's a failure of empathy. Without understanding that these ****s ACTUALLY MEAN THIS ****, you can't begin to tackle the problem.

[redgunamo]

It's the lack of will that's the problem. We Europeans live in self-negating societies where it has become unacceptable to acknowledge the value and superiority of our culture even as the rest of the world tacitly acknowledge those superiorities by flocking here in their millions from their benighted shītholes.

Even when we fight wars, we fight them for the wrong reasons, in the wrong places and against the wrong people because we're too scared to be honest about what we're trying to achieve. Or - which is worse - we're not really sure ourselves.

Right. That's why I blame your sort, claiming to be half Irish, or whatever. It's essentially the rudiments of multi-culturalism and it just encourages all the nonsense.

Surely you are aware that Europeans, for example, believe that the Scots, the Welsh and, yes, the Irish, act as some kind of civilising influence on the English. As though being English is something to be ashamed of. Seriously.

[Monty92]

This is the other thing: it has become almost impossible for yer modern, secular, liberal intellectual to comprehend the idea of all-encompassing faith that directs one's actions. The idea of someone actually believing in things live heaven, hell and 72 houris is too much for the modern mind. Which is odd, since mankind has been convinced of such things far longer in historical terms than he hasn't.

It's a failure of empathy. Without understanding that these ****s ACTUALLY MEAN THIS ****, you can't begin to tackle the problem.

Exactly. Once you allow yourself to accept that these fellas actually believe they are assuring themselves a fast-track ticket to paradise, it is no longer such a mystery and you are far less inclined to write them off as mentally ill.

Or at least no more mentally ill than someone who believes in horoscopes, anyway.

[Burney]

Exactly. Once you allow yourself to accept that these fellas actually believe they are assuring themselves a fast-track ticket to paradise, it is no longer such a mystery and you are far less inclined to write them off as mentally ill.

Or at least no more mentally ill than believing in horoscopes, anyway.

You can go on YouTube and see parents sincerely celebrating the 'martyrdom' of their child. In 'The Looming Tower' you can read about Mujahideen in Afghanistan standing enviously over the mangled corpse of their comrade because he's off in Paradise while they're still on shītty old earth.

These things are real, they're alarmingly common and to call them 'mad' is true only in the most glib sense, since this is a 'madness' that has afflicted mankind for most of its history.

[redgunamo]

This is the other thing: it has become almost impossible for yer modern, secular, liberal intellectual to comprehend the idea of all-encompassing faith that directs one's actions. The idea of someone actually believing in things like heaven, hell and 72 houris is too much for the modern mind. Which is odd, since mankind has been convinced of such things far longer in historical terms than he hasn't.

It's a failure of empathy. Without understanding that these ****s ACTUALLY MEAN THIS ****, you can't begin to tackle the problem.

We are not fighting so that you will offer us something; we are fighting to eliminate you, as the man said. I don't believe that either but it is certainly what I would say, in his shoes; more donations and better sympathy and support that way.

Think of it as a teenager's temper tantrum.

[Monty92]

You can go on YouTube and see parents sincerely celebrating the 'martyrdom' of their child. In 'The Looming Tower' you can read about Mujahideen in Afghanistan standing enviously over the mangled corpse of their comrade because he's off in Paradise while they're still on shītty old earth.

These things are real, they're alarmingly common and to call them 'mad' is true only in the most glib sense, since this is a 'madness' has afflicted mankind for most of its history.

Yet according to Peter, parents celebrating the martyrdom of their child are merely a product of their environment, and if religion is a factor in their behaviour it is certainly not a primary one.

Ditto a man stoning his own daughter to death in Afghanistan.

But a man who blows up a pop concert in Manchester....must be a mental.

[Ash]

We've been involved in real wars abroad lately with hundreds of thousands of casualties and everyone was happy to leave us standing there with just our cocks in our hands (as the man said), but now a few disco dancers and shoppers get done in and everyone's up on their hind legs.

But as you always say, no-one cares about them over there dying, as long as we don't have to look at it on the news. And tbf we have been up on our hind legs for a good few million years now.

[Burney]

Right. That's why I blame your sort, claiming to be half Irish, or whatever. It's essentially the rudiments of multi-culturalism and it just encourages all the nonsense.

Surely you are aware that Europeans, for example, believe that the Scots, the Welsh and, yes, the Irish, act as some kind of civilising influence on the English. As though being English is something to be ashamed of. Seriously.

I've never said I'm half-Irish. I'm an Englishman of Irish extraction who supports the England cricket team, the Irish rugby team and doesn't care about the England football team. These are not inherently contradictory positions, since none of these things compromises my inherent loyalty to Queen and Country.

Britain has been a vaguely coherent mish-mash of four different countries (well, three and Wales) as long as it has existed. Irishness, Scottishness and Welshness are as much parts of the British identity as Englishness, so anomalies such as me are bound to result from such a loose arrangement. That's quite different to multi-cultural nonsense.

[Peter]

I am happy to do exactly the same and never said otherwise.

Actually the original point was whether terrorists are mentally ill. You seem to be saying they must be because they can't possibly believe all that rubbish and be prepared to kill for it. I then asked you if you feel the same about states that kill gays and apostates. You said that's different because state sanctioned executions are not murder and anyway these laws are only in place because of geopolitics turning religion bad.

I then asked you about why western terrorists who have lived/visited such societies are mentally ill and not simply a product of their environment too. I also asked about muslim honour killings and muslim gang rapes in the UK and which category these fit in. I also asked about fathers who stone their own daughters to death and whether they are mentally ill or a product of their environment. Any chance of a response?

This is why the two of us cannot have a conversation. You insist on summarising and contorting what I say and then forcing us down that path.

It was actually Burney that said there was a big crossover between this behaviour and mental illness. I was making jokes about the IRA have to use payphones.

In my first response to you I talked about interpretations of Islam and other religions and the effect these interpretations can have on people exposed to them from a young age.

I did NOT say whether I thought state execution was murder. I simply pointed out that it was incorrect to say that our (western) moral code universally held this belief. Again, putting words in my mouth.

Nor did I say that geopolitics turned religion bad. Nothing of the sort. My point was that geopolitics has thrown light on religion in the rest of the world but not here and that geopolitics is therefore as big an explanation as Islam itself as to why these parts of the world have seen no enlightenment, no modernisation in their view of religion.

I told you at the start that I was not serious regarding mental illness. I have explained this several time. I won’t again.

My point, from the start, was that I blamed an interpretation of Islam rather than Islam per se. We have been over this again and again and I have stuck with the point. I am still sticking with it. If you wish to make a big deal surrounding mental illness I suggest you continue your conversation with Burney.

If you wish to discuss the issue surrounding interpretations of Islam I am happy to continue, even at the risk of being labelled smug or an apologist. :D

[Peter]

Yet according to Peter, parents celebrating the martyrdom of their child are merely a product of their environment, and if religion is a factor in their behaviour it is certainly not a primary one.

Ditto a man stoning his own daughter to death in Afghanistan.

But a man who blows up a pop concert in Manchester....must be a mental.

See... a minute ago I apparently refused to answer these questions yet now you magically have my answer.

[Peter]

You can go on YouTube and see parents sincerely celebrating the 'martyrdom' of their child. In 'The Looming Tower' you can read about Mujahideen in Afghanistan standing enviously over the mangled corpse of their comrade because he's off in Paradise while they're still on shītty old earth.

These things are real, they're alarmingly common and to call them 'mad' is true only in the most glib sense, since this is a 'madness' has afflicted mankind for most of its history.

So.... what happened to your Venn diagram then?

[SWv2]

I've never said I'm half-Irish. I'm an Englishman of Irish extraction who supports the England cricket team, the Irish rugby team and doesn't care about the England football team. These are not inherently contradictory positions, since none of these things compromises my inherent loyalty to Queen and Country.

Britain has been a vaguely coherent mish-mash of four different countries (well, three and Wales) as long as it has existed. Irishness, Scottishness and Welshness are as much parts of the British identity as Englishness, so anomalies such as me are bound to result from such a loose arrangement. That's quite different to multi-cultural nonsense.

We are not British.

You can shove it up your hole effectively.

[Burney]

So.... what happened to your Venn diagram then?

What I'm saying in no way contradicts that. Of course extremism of all sorts will attract those with mental issues who seek the comfort of un-nuanced absolutes. However, the fact that there is crossover on the Venn diagram doesn't mean that everyone - or even a majority - of those involved in extremist activities is mentally ill.
Much of the time the 'mental illness' thing is simply a comfort blanket that means we don't have to face up to the fact that sane men can kiss their loved ones goodbye in the morning and, with a light heart, go on to perform acts of profound barbarity the same day because their faith tells them it's OK.

[redgunamo]

I've never said I'm half-Irish. I'm an Englishman of Irish extraction who supports the England cricket team, the Irish rugby team and doesn't care about the England football team. These are not inherently contradictory positions, since none of these things compromises my inherent loyalty to Queen and Country.

Britain has been a vaguely coherent mish-mash of four different countries (well, three and Wales) as long as it has existed. Irishness, Scottishness and Welshness are as much parts of the British identity as Englishness, so anomalies such as me are bound to result from such a loose arrangement. That's quite different to multi-cultural nonsense.

But you have a choice, and we see now how dangerous this wishy-washiness can be.

I'm absolved, of course, because at a casual glance, I look African :-)

[Burney]

We are not British.

You can shove it up your hole effectively.

As a nation, you've been British longer than you haven't. Now shut your face.

[Burney]

But you have a choice, and we see now how dangerous this wishy-washiness can be.

I'm absolved, of course, because at a casual glance, I look African :-)

I look Irish. Unfortunately. :-(

[Peter]

As a nation, you've been British longer than you haven't. Now shut your face.

Well..... formally part of the United Kingdom, but not actually british. Its all in the name.

[Peter]

What I'm saying in no way contradicts that. Of course extremism of all sorts will attract those with mental issues who seek the comfort of un-nuanced absolutes. However, the fact that there is crossover on the Venn diagram doesn't mean that everyone - or even a majority - of those involved in extremist activities is mentally ill.
Much of the time the 'mental illness' thing is simply a comfort blanket that means we don't have to face up to the fact that sane men can kiss their loved ones goodbye in the morning and, with a light heart, go on to perform acts of profound barbarity the same day because their faith tells them it's OK.

That's disappointing. I do like a good Venn diagram.

[redgunamo]

What I'm saying in no way contradicts that. Of course extremism of all sorts will attract those with mental issues who seek the comfort of un-nuanced absolutes. However, the fact that there is crossover on the Venn diagram doesn't mean that everyone - or even a majority - of those involved in extremist activities is mentally ill.
Much of the time the 'mental illness' thing is simply a comfort blanket that means we don't have to face up to the fact that sane men can kiss their loved ones goodbye in the morning and, with a light heart, go on to perform acts of profound barbarity the same day because their faith tells them it's OK.

Right. Our own side does it all the time. We earn medals for it though, rather than virgins :-\

[Sir C]

Well..... formally part of the United Kingdom, but not actually british. Its all in the name.

And, geographically speaking, a part of the 'British' Isles :shrug:

I like to think of them as basically welshers but more retarded.

[Burney]

Well..... formally part of the United Kingdom, but not actually british. Its all in the name.

British Isles.

I fear this might trigger sw. :hehe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles

[Sir C]

I look Irish. Unfortunately. :-(

It's true you're a bit lumpy, but you don't look like you're made of potatoes like Rooney or my uncle Mick.

[redgunamo]

I look Irish. Unfortunately. :-(

Oh, I say :love:

http://marbellamarbella.es/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/dave_allen2.jpg

[Peter]

And, geographically speaking, a part of the 'British' Isles :shrug:

I like to think of them as basically welshers but more retarded.

Why is called the Irish Sea? Surely half of it is ours?

[Burney]

Right. Our own side does it all the time. We earn medals for it though, rather than virgins :-\

Yes, but that's professionalism, not faith.

[redgunamo]

Why is called the Irish Sea? Surely half of it is ours?

It's just political correctness gone mad, I suppose.

[Viva Prat Vegas]

I look Irish. Unfortunately. :-(

Pasty chubby face ?
Obvious ears ?

[Sir C]

Why is called the Irish Sea? Surely half of it is ours?

It's a puzzle, isn't it? I've always assumed it was short for 'The Sea That Goes To Ireland'. Obviously we must have named it. I don't think they've got round to inventing boats yet.

[Peter]

British Isles.

I fear this might trigger sw. :hehe:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Formerly the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

Part of the UK, not part of Great Britain. QED...

[Burney]

Why is called the Irish Sea? Surely half of it is ours?

I find the Bristol Channel a bit confusing. Most of it's nowhere near Bristol. It's like calling the English Channel the Folkestone Channel.

[Burney]

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Formerly the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

Part of the UK, not part of Great Britain. QED...

By that logic, Ulstermen aren't British, p.

This assertion will play badly on the Shankhill, I fear.

[redgunamo]

Yes, but that's professionalism, not faith.

Same difference though, innit. In the third world, there is no money per se, so "money", as it were, has no meaning. Or at least, a quite different meaning.

They think they're being professional; you might even say the virgins are their pay.

[Peter]

By that logic, Ulstermen aren't British, p.

This assertion will play badly on the Shankhill, I fear.

Well that isn't my problem. I didn't name it.

[Peter]

Same difference though, innit. In the third world, there is no money per se, so "money", as it were, has no meaning. Or at least, a quite different meaning.

They think they're being professional; you might even say the virgins are their pay.

Why don't they ask for half the money up front?

[Burney]

Pasty chubby face ?
Obvious ears ?

Pale or red of face, depending on the weather. Chubbyness varies according to weight. My ears are large and pendulous of lobe, but not obtrusive, I don't think.

I have a big, thick thatch of curly hair, a large head, a relatively small nose and a penchant for drinking, digging and eating potatoes that I fear must be hereditary.

[redgunamo]

I find the Bristol Channel a bit confusing. Most of it's nowhere near Bristol. It's like calling the English Channel the Folkestone Channel.

Foreigners call the English Channel the "Sleeve", Der Ärmelkanal :-|

[Burney]

Why don't they ask for half the money up front?

36 virgins up front? Don't really see how that'd work. By the time you'd finished with them a/ they wouldn't be virgins b/ the job would be delayed and c/ you wouldn't be able to take them with you, so you'd have to make do with just 36 for all eternity. :-(

Frankly, I'm beginning to see the flaws in this virgin-based currency system you propose.

[Sir C]

I find the Bristol Channel a bit confusing. Most of it's nowhere near Bristol. It's like calling the English Channel the Folkestone Channel.

As a child we had a rather dull family friend from Bristol, who my father always referred to as 'the Severn Bore'.

He was fúcking top, my dad.

Watching Miss Great Britain one night and out gallumphs Miss Isle of Wight, a stocky lady, causing him to peer over his glasses; 'Miss Isle of Wight? Miss Cowes, more like.'

Spot. On. Every. Time.

[redgunamo]

Why don't they ask for half the money up front?

As I say, there isn't really any so nobody's life revolves around it the way ours do.

[Viva Prat Vegas]

Pale or red of face, depending on the weather. Chubbyness varies according to weight. My ears are large and pendulous of lobe, but not obtrusive, I don't think.

I have a big, thick thatch of curly hair, a large head, a relatively small nose and a penchant for drinking, digging and eating potatoes that I fear must be hereditary.

You seem to tick all the right boxes except one
You are highly intelligent

[redgunamo]

As a child we had a rather dull family friend from Bristol, who my father always referred to as 'the Severn Bore'.

He was fúcking top, my dad.

Watching Miss Great Britain one night and out gallumphs Miss Isle of Wight, a stocky lady, causing him to peer over his glasses; 'Miss Isle of Wight? Miss Cowes, more like.'

Spot. On. Every. Time.

Yep, that's dads for you.

[Burney]

Foreigners call the English Channel the "Sleeve", Der Ärmelkanal :-|

Yes, but that's just envy. They know deep down it's the English Channel. God knows we've proved it to enough of them down the years*.


*Yes, yes, the Dutch. I know.

[Sir C]

Yep, that's dads for you.

The Severn Bore though. The Severn Bore! :wipeseye:

[Burney]

You seem to tick all the right boxes except one
You are highly intelligent

That is both very kind and slightly racist at the same time.

But hey, a compliment's a compliment. :shrug:

[Burney]

The Severn Bore though. The Severn Bore! :wipeseye:

Quite a niche geographical reference, too. Impressive - particularly for a non-native speaker.

[SWv2]

Ireland is not British.

[Peter]

36 virgins up front? Don't really see how that'd work. By the time you'd finished with them a/ they wouldn't be virgins b/ the job would be delayed and c/ you wouldn't be able to take them with you, so you'd have to make do with just 36 for all eternity. :-(

Frankly, I'm beginning to see the flaws in this virgin-based currency system you propose.

Ok, just one up front. Its not my system, r suggested it.

[Peter]

Ireland is not British.

Its all same though, isn't it.

I mean, who really cares? At the end of the day its just a good bunch of lads who like a drink.

[Burney]

Ireland is not British.

No, no. Of course not.

It just happens to be part of the British Isles, speaks English, ties itself to British law and custom, drinks pints and is economically, militarily and culturally dependent on Britain. Oh, and six counties of it are definitely British.

Not British at all.

;-)

[Viva Prat Vegas]

Ok, just one up front. Its not my system, r suggested it.

You must have clean hands

[Sir C]

Its all same though, isn't it.

I mean, who really cares? At the end of the day its just a good bunch of lads who like a drink.

I fúcking care. They ponced off our generosity for hundreds of years and now, drunk on EU handouts, all of a sudden they're too good for the likes of us.

Let 'em stew in their own juice, I say. They'll come crawling back soon enough.

[Peter]

I fúcking care. They ponced off our generosity for hundreds of years and now, drunk on EU handouts, all of a sudden they're too good for the likes of us.

Let 'em stew in their own juice, I say. They'll come crawling back soon enough.

Fair enough. I have no problem with them. Live and let live I reckon.

[redgunamo]

Ok, just one up front. Its not my system, r suggested it.

Not guilty, sir. I'm always two upfront, three at the back.

Like your mum :-)

[Viva Prat Vegas]

I fúcking care. They ponced off our generosity for hundreds of years and now, drunk on EU handouts, all of a sudden they're too good for the likes of us.

Let 'em stew in their own juice, I say. They'll come crawling back soon enough.

Stew
Very subtle C

[redgunamo]

Its all same though, isn't it.

I mean, who really cares? At the end of the day its just a good bunch of lads who like a drink.

No, it certainly isn't all the same. That's the whole point.

Just you wait until mainstream Islam allows drinking. Don't say I didn't warn you.

[Sir C]

Stew
Very subtle C

One tries, v.

[Peter]

No, it certainly isn't all the same. That's the whole point.

Just you wait until mainstream Islam allows drinking. Don't say I didn't warn you.

I just meant our boys and the fellas in green. Not the rest of them- they can **** right off.

[redgunamo]

Its funny. Monty thinks Muslims are mental for believing that the big Mo flew to the moon. In our era people are considered to be mental if they believe that Neil Armstrong didn’t.

Its all *******s isn’t it.

Of course. That's because Neil Armstrong quite obviously didn't. It's in a completely different league of silliness.

[Osborne18]

There must be a way you can turn this easy disguise to your advantage.

[IUFG]

There must be a way you can turn this easy disguise to your advantage.

:nostalgiabot: