We must not change our way of life.

[Pat Vegas]

Oh look here comes the Army.

[redgunamo]

Oh look here comes the Army.

The army's always there, P. Watching. Waiting..

[Burney]

Oh look here comes the Army.

Well quite. What the cretins who say that ignore is the extent to which Islamic terrorism has already changed our lives. Security at airports, armed police on the streets, an increased acceptance of state monitoring of our lives - all these things have changed our way of life.

If them not changing our way of life is your benchmark for us winning, we lost ages ago.

[redgunamo]

Well quite. What the cretins who say that ignore is the extent to which Islamic terrorism has already changed our lives. Security at airports, armed police on the streets, an increased acceptance of state monitoring of our lives - all these things have changed our way of life.

If them not changing our way of life is your benchmark for us winning, we lost ages ago.

I'm not sure. Isn't that mostly stuff we were doing, or at least would like to have been doing, anyway?

People didn't want war, everybody wanted peace. Well, this is what peace typically looks like :shrug:

[Pat Vegas]

Well quite. What the cretins who say that ignore is the extent to which Islamic terrorism has already changed our lives. Security at airports, armed police on the streets, an increased acceptance of state monitoring of our lives - all these things have changed our way of life.

If them not changing our way of life is your benchmark for us winning, we lost ages ago.

Exactly.

But I think the Muslim community need to understand and accept that unfortunately they will need to experience some inconvenience because of actions of some people doing/saying things in the name of their religion.

But everyone is so ****ing touchy about offending anybody.

I am pretty sure there are tragedies that could or would be averted if somebody stepped in to say something rather than living in fear of being branded a racist.

[Burney]

Exactly.

But I think the Muslim community need to understand and accept that unfortunately they will need to experience some inconvenience because of actions of some people doing/saying things in the name of their religion.

But everyone is so ****ing touchy about offending anybody.

I am pretty sure there are tragedies that could or would be averted if somebody stepped in to say something rather than living in fear of being branded a racist.

The statutory legitimisation of offence-taking has been a disaster. People are entitled to believe whatever the hell they want. However, they are not entitled to expect others to respect those beliefs and they are certainly not entitled to enact those beliefs in such a way that it impinges upon the day-to-day operation of a modern, liberal, secular society. These things you would have thought were self-evident, but instead society has twisted itself into knots to accommodate the entirely incompatible belief system of a particular religious group. The result has been chaos, resentment and entrenched division.

[redgunamo]

Exactly.

But I think the Muslim community need to understand and accept that unfortunately they will need to experience some inconvenience because of actions of some people doing/saying things in the name of their religion.

But everyone is so ****ing touchy about offending anybody.

I am pretty sure there are tragedies that could or would be averted if somebody stepped in to say something rather than living in fear of being branded a racist.

There's the essential contradiction, right there, I'm afraid. Where do you imagine people that get all upset at a bit of name-calling and one or two squaddies on street corners are going to gather the necessary resolve to take serious, cold-blooded, hard-hearted measures from.

If we were that way inclined, we wouldn't have arrived where we are in the first place.

[Burney]

I'm not sure. Isn't that mostly stuff we were doing, or at least would like to have been doing, anyway?

People didn't want war, everybody wanted peace. Well, this is what peace typically looks like :shrug:

No. It's stuff that has been enacted in direct response to acts of Islamic terror.

[Sir C]

Oh look here comes the Army.

Are these squaddies likely to be from *gulp* line regiments? It's going to be carnage :-(

[redgunamo]

The statutory legitimisation of offence-taking has been a disaster. People are entitled to believe whatever the hell they want. However, they are not entitled to expect others to respect those beliefs and they are certainly not entitled to enact those beliefs in such a way that it impinges upon the day-to-day operation of a modern, liberal, secular society. These things you would have thought were self-evident, but instead society has twisted itself into knots to accommodate the entirely incompatible belief system of a particular religious group. The result has been chaos, resentment and entrenched division.

There's the rub though; they actually are entitled. Otherwise, what does modern, liberal and secular actually mean.

[Burney]

There's the rub though; they actually are entitled. Otherwise, what does modern, liberal and secular actually mean.

Well what it should mean is a society that has a clear idea of its own values and is free and tolerant up to the point at which it is threatened. At that point, it should be confident enough to act ruthlessly in its own defence. We've made the mistake of thinking 'tolerant' means 'prepared to tolerate anything in defence of some vague idea of inclusivity'. It doesn't.

[redgunamo]

No. It's stuff that has been enacted in direct response to acts of Islamic terror.

Airport security has always been a thing, machine gun-toting police have long been a feature of both supermarkets in Benidorm and football matches in Germany and nobody forces anybody to tell their life stories to LinkedIn or Facebook, do they.

Wars on terror or whtever-have-you is just a McGuffin, imo. In these matters, solutions very often do predate the problem.

[Sir C]

Airport security has always been a thing, machine gun-toting police have long been a feature of both supermarkets in Benidorm and football matches in Germany and nobody forces anybody to tell their life stories to LinkedIn or Facebook, do they.

Wars on terror or whtever-have-you is just a McGuffin, imo. In these matters, solutions very often do predate the problem.

Erm, have you been on a civilian flight since 11th September 2001, r?

[Pat Vegas]

Erm, have you been on a civilian flight since 11th September 2001, r?

Whoever is in front of me in the queue for security doesn't appear to have. :furious:
The amount of ****ing about people do. If you are not ready to go through security they should give you 30 seconds and send you to the back of the queue.

there was some tosser with a 2l bottle of milk in front of me before throwing it away he had a leisurely swig of it.

[redgunamo]

Well what it should mean is a society that has a clear idea of its own values and is free and tolerant up to the point at which it is threatened. At that point, it should be confident enough to act ruthlessly in its own defence. We've made the mistake of thinking 'tolerant' means 'prepared to tolerate anything in defence of some vague idea of inclusivity'. It doesn't.

Taken to its logical conclusion though, it does mean that. I agree that it actually shouldn't.

[redgunamo]

Is it any different than flying with NATO or the Navy? I doubt it.



Erm, have you been on a civilian flight since 11th September 2001, r?

[Sir C]

Is it any different than flying with NATO or the Navy? I doubt it.

Good Lord man, I don't advise flying with the Navy; those chaps have a very bizarre attitude to aircraft - specifically, the landing thereof.

The only thing worse than a matelot in the flight deck would be a brown job.

[Burney]

Is it any different than flying with NATO or the Navy? I doubt it.

r, this happened on a suburban street in Manchester yesterday and no-one sees it as disproportionate or incongruous.

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/867278332798390272

It seems undeniable to me that we have come to accept a new definition of normal in response to Islamic terrorism.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

The heading of this post is normally interpreted as "we must not change THEIR way of life". Ban the burkha for starters and blame terrorism.

Yesterday of all days Facebook was awash with some crappy footage of some Oz broad bawling out someone in a "racist attack". This is somehow given equivalence with a sectarian and racist attack which leaves 22 people dead.

[redgunamo]

r, this happened on a suburban street in Manchester yesterday and no-one sees it as disproportionate or incongruous.

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/867278332798390272

It seems undeniable to me that we have come to accept a new definition of normal in response to Islamic terrorism.

I'm sure this sort of thing happens all the time. For example, Manchester has serious gang troubles too, doesn't it? Drugs?

It's no secret, the police business is in rude health. What of it?

[redgunamo]

Whoever is in front of me in the queue for security doesn't appear to have. :furious:
The amount of ****ing about people do. If you are not ready to go through security they should give you 30 seconds and send you to the back of the queue.

there was some tosser with a 2l bottle of milk in front of me before throwing it away he had a leisurely swig of it.

A small inconvenience perhaps, nothing more.

It seems to me that, for all the talk of "values", the main problem is that we don't really have any anymore. Or at least, people want to make them up as they go along, to suit, but then wish to reserve the right to go all gooey when everyone else, naturally, wants to do the same.

The link between the two appears lost on people.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

Excellent article in the Telegraph today by Allison Pearson. That woman is good:

"Even before their bodies were cold, the great and the good were crowding on to the airwaves to murmur their slef-soothing mantras about hope being better than fear, strong, vibrant communities., keep clam and carry on, business as usual.

How dare they. They insult the dead who deserve their country to be outraged and anguished on their behalf. Why should we be calm when our children are considered a legitimate target for mass murder?

The Government... needs to channel justifiable public anger into drastic action."