Speaking of getting slaughtered, I went to the bull fighting in Sevilla on Saturday

[World's End Stella]

and quite an amazing experience it was.

The Spanish get all dressed up, as the English do for horse racing, and there was no shortage of talent about. The Spanish men smoke huge cigars in the stadium and shout all sorts of appreciative things which were beyond me.

But as a spectacle which was evocative of their culture it was exceptional. Thoroughly enjoyed it and would highly recommend it. Very interesting and lots of fun.

Less so for the bull, of course. But to paraphrase Burney, 'it's just a f*cking bull'.

Ole!

[Peter]

and quite an amazing experience it was.

The Spanish get all dressed up, as the English do for horse racing, and there was no shortage of talent about. The Spanish men smoke huge cigars in the stadium and shout all sorts of appreciative things which were beyond me.

But as a spectacle which was evocative of their culture it was exceptional. Thoroughly enjoyed it and would highly recommend it. Very interesting and lots of fun.

Less so for the bull, of course. But to paraphrase Burney, 'it's just a f*cking bull'.

Ole!

I can honestly say I would rather watch Arsenal.

[World's End Stella]

I can honestly say I would rather watch Arsenal.

Um, yeah, but unless you've been to the bull fighting you can't be sure, can you Peter? :-)

[Burney]

and quite an amazing experience it was.

The Spanish get all dressed up, as the English do for horse racing, and there was no shortage of talent about. The Spanish men smoke huge cigars in the stadium and shout all sorts of appreciative things which were beyond me.

But as a spectacle which was evocative of their culture it was exceptional. Thoroughly enjoyed it and would highly recommend it. Very interesting and lots of fun.

Less so for the bull, of course. But to paraphrase Burney, 'it's just a f*cking bull'.

Ole!

I did the tour of the bullring when I was there, but had no interest in going to a bullfight. The thing that bothers me isn't so much the bull being tortured and dying (although going to watch that seems a bit weird to me) as the fact that it's not a fair fight in which the man and the bull have an equal chance of coming out dead. The game's loaded, so to me it's like turning up to a game between Barcelona and Runcorn Town every week.
Without the element of competition, it's just an atavistic ritual killing and I'm not really into that.

[Sir C]

I did the tour of the bullring when I was there, but had no interest in going to a bullfight. The thing that bothers me isn't so much the bull being tortured and dying (although going to watch that seems a bit weird to me) as the fact that it's not a fair fight in which the man and the bull have an equal chance of coming out dead. The game's loaded, so to me it's like turning up to a game between Barcelona and Runcorn Town every week.
Without the element of competition, it's just an atavistic ritual killing and I'm not really into that.

Anyone who enjoys watching an animal being tortured is quite clearly wrong in the head.

[Burney]

Anyone who enjoys watching an animal being tortured is quite clearly wrong in the head.

:shrug: I dunno. I agree, of course, but am also conscious that to feel like that is a fairly recent phenomenon. Watching and enjoying the torture of animals has been a facet of human nature for a very, very long time. So, while we may find it abhorrent, we probably need to acknowledge that our abhorrence is the exception rather than the rule in human historical terms and is representative of a very specific set of cultural and societal mores.

I mean, they're obviously the right cultural and societal mores, but still.

[World's End Stella]

I did the tour of the bullring when I was there, but had no interest in going to a bullfight. The thing that bothers me isn't so much the bull being tortured and dying (although going to watch that seems a bit weird to me) as the fact that it's not a fair fight in which the man and the bull have an equal chance of coming out dead. The game's loaded, so to me it's like turning up to a game between Barcelona and Runcorn Town every week.
Without the element of competition, it's just an atavistic ritual killing and I'm not really into that.

Well, there's the skill of the matadors and the other chaps to appreciate, it seems this is primarily what the Spanish are there for.

And the 'torture' of the bull struck me as being overrated. They seem quite content charging around after the people in the ring, then when they tire the coup de gras is applied. Do they suffer anymore than most animals in abattoirs? I doubt there's much in it.

More importantly, it was very evocative of a very different culture from a very different time. It was like being in a museum, but what you are observing is live and in person. I found that aspect quite fascinating and would never judge it based on some modern day, sanitized view of the world.

That's just boring.

[Sir C]

:shrug: I dunno. I agree, of course, but am also conscious that to feel like that is a fairly recent phenomenon. Watching and enjoying the torture of animals has been a facet of human nature for a very, very long time. So, while we may find it abhorrent, we probably need to acknowledge that our abhorrence is the exception rather than the rule in human historical terms and is representative of a very specific set of cultural and societal mores.

I mean, they're obviously the right cultural and societal mores, but still.

Well, yes, but for the majority of human history we've married 12 year old girls and burnt women for being suspected of witchcraft.

Would you say that an abhorrence for *****philia and burning women at the stake is simply 'the exception', and that those who enjoy such activities today are perfectly sound in the mind?

[Burney]

Well, there's the skill of the matadors and the other chaps to appreciate, it seems this is primarily what the Spanish are there for.

And the 'torture' of the bull struck me as being overrated. They seem quite content charging around after the people in the ring, then when they tire the coup de gras is applied. Do they suffer anymore than most animals in abattoirs? I doubt there's much in it.

More importantly, it was very evocative of a very different culture from a very different time. It was like being in a museum, but what you are observing is live and in person. I found that aspect quite fascinating and would never judge it based on some modern day, sanitized view of the world.

That's just boring.


I think when something is taking place in what is (nominally, at least) a modern, civilised, developed nation that has had all the benefits of the Enlightenment, it becomes valid to judge it by those standards. Maybe one can cut savages some slack because...well...they're savages, but if people want to tell me they are civilised, I will judge them by those standards.
Also, the issue is not so much the fact of the animal's suffering as the crowd's conscious decision to revel in that suffering. It is that I find disgusting.

Also, it's 'Coup de grâce', btw. What you wrote means 'blow of fat'.

[Burney]

Well, yes, but for the majority of human history we've married 12 year old girls and burnt women for being suspected of witchcraft.

Would you say that an abhorrence for *****philia and burning women at the stake is simply 'the exception', and that those who enjoy such activities today are perfectly sound in the mind?

I would agree that yes, we have moved on. I just don't think 'wrong in the head' is a helpful definition.
For instance, slavery has been a fact of human history for a lot longer than it hasn't and obviously I now find the idea abhorrent. However, I fight shy of moral judgement of those who grew up in very different times and circumstances and so do not subscribe to the automatic belief that slave traders were inherently evil because of what they did, preferring to try and see them in the context of their times.
Equally, do I think that Spaniards are inherently evil for enjoying bullfighting? No. I just think they're a bit ethically and culturally retarded to still do that sort of thing in the modern world. We are all products of our societies and cultures and to me, the love of bullfighting tells me that Spanish society and culture is a bit wrong.

[Sir C]

I would agree that yes, we have moved on. I just don't think 'wrong in the head' is a helpful definition.
For instance, slavery has been a fact of human history for a lot longer than it hasn't and obviously I now find the idea abhorrent. However, I fight shy of moral judgement of those who grew up in very different times and circumstances and so do not subscribe to the automatic belief that slave traders were inherently evil because of what they did, preferring to try and see them in the context of their times.
Equally, do I think that Spaniards are inherently evil for enjoying bullfighting? No. I just think they're a bit ethically and culturally retarded to still do that sort of thing in the modern world. We are all products of our societies and cultures and to me, the love of bullfighting tells me that Spanish society and culture is a bit wrong.

You can dress it up all you like, but if you spend an afternoon enjoying watching an animal being tortured, you're one sick ****. Fact. End of. Stuff like that.

[Burney]

You can dress it up all you like, but if you spend an afternoon enjoying watching an animal being tortured, you're one sick ****. Fact. End of. Stuff like that.

OK. But I would argue that being a sick fûck is a normal human trait. Not being one is quite unusual.

[Sir C]

OK. But I would argue that being a sick fûck is a normal human trait. Not being one is quite unusual.

If that were the case, we wouldn't be surprised and revolted by Gary Glitter or Jimmy Savile; we'd accept their behaviour as it would be that of the majority :shrug:

[Pokster]

OK. But I would argue that being a sick fûck is a normal human trait. Not being one is quite unusual.

Is it OK for an animal to be tortured then eaten, or just sick to watch it? I'm confused here

[Burney]

If that were the case, we wouldn't be surprised and revolted by Gary Glitter or Jimmy Savile; we'd accept their behaviour as it would be that of the majority :shrug:

That's to suppose that different mores don't apply to different transgressions at different times and places. It was only a couple of decades ago that an older man having sex with underage girls was basically seen as a harmless peccadillo - which is part of the reason Savile got away with it for so long. We lived in a society where the sexy schoolgirl was a pretty mainstream male fantasy. Was that a good thing? No. But it was how society was. Now, of course, such things make for very uncomfortable viewing.

[Burney]

Is it OK for an animal to be tortured then eaten, or just sick to watch it? I'm confused here

Neither is OK. Hope that clears things up for you.

[World's End Stella]

I think when something is taking place in what is (nominally, at least) a modern, civilised, developed nation that has had all the benefits of the Enlightenment, it becomes valid to judge it by those standards. Maybe one can cut savages some slack because...well...they're savages, but if people want to tell me they are civilised, I will judge them by those standards.
Also, the issue is not so much the fact of the animal's suffering as the crowd's conscious decision to revel in that suffering. It is that I find disgusting.

Also, it's 'Coup de grâce', btw. What you wrote means 'blow of fat'.

How do you know if the crowd revels in the bull's suffering if you have never been? You see, this is one of the reasons I went, a desire to experience and understand it better.

In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. One of the things that the crowd seemed to appreciate was the skill used to dispatch the bull quickly and as painlessly as possible. The matador for the second bull seemed to be struggling to finish the bull off and the more he struggled the more the crowd seemed to object. It was the football equivalent of the Emirates when Ramsey gives the ball away, yet again.

Having been to see it, I think the moral argument against it is very dubious.

[Sir C]

How do you know if the crowd revels in the bull's suffering if you have never been? You see, this is one of the reasons I went, a desire to experience and understand it better.

In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. One of the things that the crowd seemed to appreciate was the skill used to dispatch the bull quickly and as painlessly as possible. The matador for the second bull seemed to be struggling to finish the bull off and the more he struggled the more the crowd seemed to object. It was the football equivalent of the Emirates when Ramsey gives the ball away, yet again.

Having been to see it, I think the moral argument against it is very dubious.

I've been to a bullfight, so I know you are talking utter codswallop.

Don't let that stop you.

[Burney]

How do you know if the crowd revels in the bull's suffering if you have never been? You see, this is one of the reasons I went, a desire to experience and understand it better.

In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. One of the things that the crowd seemed to appreciate was the skill used to dispatch the bull quickly and as painlessly as possible. The matador for the second bull seemed to be struggling to finish the bull off and the more he struggled the more the crowd seemed to object. It was the football equivalent of the Emirates when Ramsey gives the ball away, yet again.

Having been to see it, I think the moral argument against it is very dubious.

So, once the poor thing has been chased ragged, used as a pincushion, suffered sufficient blood loss and had its neck muscles weakened to the point that it can barely lift its head, they appreciate it if it is quickly dispatched from its pain and terror?

How very humane of them.

Do fûck off and try not to be so cretinous.

[World's End Stella]

So, once the poor thing has been chased ragged, used as a pincushion, suffered sufficient blood loss and had its neck muscles weakened to the point that it can barely lift its head, they appreciate it if it is quickly dispatched from its pain and terror?

How very humane of them.

Do fûck off and try not to be so cretinous.

The bull isn't chased, the bull chases. It is stabbed 6 times if all goes according to plan, although the blood loss isn't sufficient to noticeably disable it, it still seems to be very active and aware. I never noticed any of the bulls being unable to lift their heads, the only difference between the bulls prior to being killed and entering the ring was that they had become very tired from chasing the matadors and the other chaps around.

Did the bull suffer more than the geese or ducks that are force fed and have their livers moved outside of their bodies so that you can enjoy foie gras? I don't think so, at least it isn't immediately obvious to me that they did.

Do f*ck off and try not to be so sanctimonious about something you seem to know very little about.

[Burney]

I never noticed any of the bulls being unable to lift their heads

Apparently, one bullfight and you're an expert on the niceties of bovine suffering. Try looking up some facts about what you were watching.That's why the picadors do what they do. The whole point is to weaken and disable the bull, ffs!

The foie gras analogy is an irrelevant bit of whataboutery. Does the force-feeding of ducks and geese for food make the torture of a bull OK somehow? Of course not. It just means I'm somewhat hypocritical - as is anyone who eats meat. All of which alters the substance of the argument not one jot. What I do know is that I wouldn't go to watch the gavage for kicks and then dress it up as if it were some sort of high cultural moment.

I have chosen not to go to a bullfight because I know them objectively to involve animal torture and needless killing - indeed, that is their raison d'être. I don't need to watch one to know I don't want to. I am able to read about and watch things and make judgements accordingly. Equally, I've never watched a human being tortured, but I don't have to to know it's wrong.

[Peter]

Um, yeah, but unless you've been to the bull fighting you can't be sure, can you Peter? :-)

I never got the chance to be present at a lynching but I am fairly confident I wouldn't have enjoyed it.

It's just one of those things that you don't need to try for yourself. Like watching wrestling.

[Peter]

Apparently, one bullfight and you're an expert on the niceties of bovine suffering. Try looking up some facts about what you were watching.That's why the picadors do what they do. The whole point is to weaken and disable the bull, ffs!

The foie gras analogy is an irrelevant bit of whataboutery. Does the force-feeding of ducks and geese for food make the torture of a bull OK somehow? Of course not. It just means I'm somewhat hypocritical - as is anyone who eats meat. All of which alters the substance of the argument not one jot. What I do know is that I wouldn't go to watch the gavage for kicks and then dress it up as if it were some sort of high cultural moment.

I have chosen not to go to a bullfight because I know them objectively to involve animal torture and needless killing - indeed, that is their raison d'être. I don't need to watch one to know I don't want to. I am able to read about and watch things and make judgements accordingly. Equally, I've never watched a human being tortured, but I don't have to to know it's wrong.

Also, as you pointed out earlier, the result is inevitable and will always be the same. The sport element is merely deigned to deflect from the fact that it is a ritual torture and murder.

[Burney]

I never got the chance to be present at a lynching but I am fairly confident I wouldn't have enjoyed it.

It's just one of those things that you don't need to try for yourself. Like watching wrestling.

Actually, I went to the wrestling at the Fairfield Halls, Croydon as a kid a few times and it was tremendous fun. Of course, the first few rows were occupied by the severely intellectually challenged, but it was none the worse for that.

[SWv2]

I never got the chance to be present at a lynching but I am fairly confident I wouldn't have enjoyed it.

It's just one of those things that you don't need to try for yourself. Like watching wrestling.

What sort of wrestling are we talking about here P?

Modern day nonsense or old skool nonsense? Giant Haystacks or John Cena? Big Daddy or Big Show?

Both shíte of course but I am a stickler for detail.

[Peter]

Actually, I went to the wrestling at the Fairfield Halls, Croydon as a kid a few times and it was tremendous fun. Of course, the first few rows were occupied by the severely intellectually challenged, but it was none the worse for that.

Oh I attach no moral judgement here, b. Each to their own and all that.

I mean, I hate strip clubs but I appreciate that other people love them. I just know its not for me.

[redgunamo]

I never got the chance to be present at a lynching but I am fairly confident I wouldn't have enjoyed it.

It's just one of those things that you don't need to try for yourself. Like watching wrestling.

Surely that would depend entirely upon *who* was for it?

[Burney]

Also, as you pointed out earlier, the result is inevitable and will always be the same. The sport element is merely deigned to deflect from the fact that it is a ritual torture and murder.

:nod: At least when the Romans did this stuff the animals had a chance of taking some of the buggers with them. Indeed, the Spanish fighting bull was considered the most dangerous of all the animals in the arena due to its strength, speed and sheer ferocity. This is why the picadors are necessary. In a fair go between some dago ponce in tights and a fit bull, there'd only ever be one winner.

[Peter]

What sort of wrestling are we talking about here P?

Modern day nonsense or old skool nonsense? Giant Haystacks or John Cena? Big Daddy or Big Show?

Both shíte of course but I am a stickler for detail.

In both cases it appears to be large men in underpants. I am not sure I would want to spare either form so lets say both.

[Sir C]

Surely that would depend entirely upon *who* was for it?

Yes, one suspects that Peter wouldn't be averse to watching a certain Abbott being strung up :hehe:

[Burney]

Oh I attach no moral judgement here, b. Each to their own and all that.

I mean, I hate strip clubs but I appreciate that other people love them. I just know its not for me.

Strip clubs. :-( Ewwww, no.

They bring out my odd puritanical streak for some reason.

[Burney]

Yes, one suspects that Peter wouldn't be averse to watching a certain Abbott being strung up :hehe:

You'd need a fûcking strong tree branch.

[Peter]

Surely that would depend entirely upon *who* was for it?

Not really. Any form of murder is a bit of a channel changer for me

[Sir C]

:nod: At least when the Romans did this stuff the animals had a chance of taking some of the buggers with them. Indeed, the Spanish fighting bull was considered the most dangerous of all the animals in the arena due to strength, speed and sheer ferocity. This is why the picadors are necessary. In a fair go between some dago ponce in tights and a fit bull, there'd only ever be one winner.

I like it when the ponce gets a horn up his bottom. I like to imagine the damage it does to his internal organs. Sometimes I draw pictures of ruptured spleens, kidney and intestines and colour them in. Mainly in red.

[Peter]

Strip clubs. :-( Ewwww, no.

They bring out my odd puritanical streak for some reason.

They just make me feel uncomfortable. I think it is because I know what the men are thinking

[Burney]

I like it when the ponce gets a horn up his bottom. I like to imagine the damage it does to his internal organs. Sometimes I draw pictures of ruptured spleens, kidney and intestines and colour them in. Mainly in red.

This was a recent favourite. Although I saw someone got one in the face recently.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4346264/Matadors-anus-completely-destroyed-gives-thumbs-up.html

[Burney]

They just make me feel uncomfortable. I think it is because I know what the men are thinking

Yes. That's definitely part of it. A roomful of sexually excited men isn't my idea of a good time. Equally, there's an air of desperation about them that I normally associate with bookies and Wetherspoons.

[redgunamo]

:shrug: I dunno. I agree, of course, but am also conscious that to feel like that is a fairly recent phenomenon. Watching and enjoying the torture of animals has been a facet of human nature for a very, very long time. So, while we may find it abhorrent, we probably need to acknowledge that our abhorrence is the exception rather than the rule in human historical terms and is representative of a very specific set of cultural and societal mores.

I mean, they're obviously the right cultural and societal mores, but still.

I'm not so sure. There hardly seems any point a society being so sophisticated and "moral" that it cannot reproduce anymore, even to the point that hordes of the very savages that enjoy these atavistic pleasures (like me, for instance) must be drafted in to make up the shortfall.

At least their cultural and societal mores have proven viable over a decent stretch of time.

Some German politico stated the other day that soon there will inevitably be a local version of Sharia law. So what was the point of it all then.

[redgunamo]

Not really. Any form of murder is a bit of a channel changer for me

You see, this is precisely the trouble; if people actually saw what was going on, often in their name, then there'd be alot less of it going on. In their name. If you follow me.

[redgunamo]

What sort of wrestling are we talking about here P?

Modern day nonsense or old skool nonsense? Giant Haystacks or John Cena? Big Daddy or Big Show?

Both shíte of course but I am a stickler for detail.

Ah, you have a young son too, don't you :-(

[Burney]

I'm not so sure. There hardly seems any point a society being so sophisticated and "moral" that it cannot reproduce anymore, even to the point that hordes of the very savages that enjoy these atavistic pleasures (like me, for instance) must be drafted in to make up the shortfall.

At least their cultural and societal mores have proven viable over a decent stretch of time.

Some German politico stated the other day that soon there will inevitably be a local version of Sharia law. So what was the point of it all then.

If you were to argue that on our road to civilisation we may have thrown some babies out with the bathwater, I might agree. However, think stabbing bulls for fun is pretty much indefensible.

[Burney]

You see, this is precisely the trouble; if people actually saw what was going on, often in their name, then there'd be alot less of it going on. In their name. If you follow me.


Oddly enough, I'm not sure that's true. Support for judicial execution in this the west, for instance, started to wane in popularity after it ceased to be a public spectacle rather than before. It started to be seen as something covert and shameful.

[redgunamo]

If you were to argue that on our road to civilisation we may have thrown some babies out with the bathwater, I might agree. However, think stabbing bulls for fun is pretty much indefensible.

Yes, but what difference does it make, if that civilisation is recquired to have its own extinction built into it from the start.

I find it hard to get excited about animal torture, or even human torture, for that matter, when there are far more savage and barbaric acts taking place on a regular basis in my teenaged son's bedroom. Or so it sounds like.

[redgunamo]

Oddly enough, I'm not sure that's true. Support for judicial execution in this the west, for instance, started to wane in popularity after it ceased to be a public spectacle rather than before. It started to be seen as something covert and shameful.

Yes, of course. I know. I just like Peter's sort to confront that truth, to admit it even to themselves :-)

[Pokster]

Neither is OK. Hope that clears things up for you.

foie gras not on your likes list?

[Burney]

foie gras not on your likes list?

I've already dealt with this red herring.

[redgunamo]

Apparently, one bullfight and you're an expert on the niceties of bovine suffering. Try looking up some facts about what you were watching.That's why the picadors do what they do. The whole point is to weaken and disable the bull, ffs!

The foie gras analogy is an irrelevant bit of whataboutery. Does the force-feeding of ducks and geese for food make the torture of a bull OK somehow? Of course not. It just means I'm somewhat hypocritical - as is anyone who eats meat. All of which alters the substance of the argument not one jot. What I do know is that I wouldn't go to watch the gavage for kicks and then dress it up as if it were some sort of high cultural moment.

I have chosen not to go to a bullfight because I know them objectively to involve animal torture and needless killing - indeed, that is their raison d'être. I don't need to watch one to know I don't want to. I am able to read about and watch things and make judgements accordingly. Equally, I've never watched a human being tortured, but I don't have to to know it's wrong.

No, this is why we don't allow women to rule the world; you can't have it both ways.

Except when your mum insists, of course.

[Ash]

Equally, I've never watched a human being tortured, but I don't have to to know it's wrong.

Hmmm. Watching Geoffrey score a hundred is to witness torture on an industrial scale imo.

[World's End Stella]

Apparently, one bullfight and you're an expert on the niceties of bovine suffering. Try looking up some facts about what you were watching.That's why the picadors do what they do. The whole point is to weaken and disable the bull, ffs!

The foie gras analogy is an irrelevant bit of whataboutery. Does the force-feeding of ducks and geese for food make the torture of a bull OK somehow? Of course not. It just means I'm somewhat hypocritical - as is anyone who eats meat. All of which alters the substance of the argument not one jot. What I do know is that I wouldn't go to watch the gavage for kicks and then dress it up as if it were some sort of high cultural moment.

I have chosen not to go to a bullfight because I know them objectively to involve animal torture and needless killing - indeed, that is their raison d'être. I don't need to watch one to know I don't want to. I am able to read about and watch things and make judgements accordingly. Equally, I've never watched a human being tortured, but I don't have to to know it's wrong.

Well, you seem to be an expert without having attended one at all so I'm not too sure why I can't be one. The picadors may have been intended to weaken the bull in whatever article you read but in the fights I watched they seemed to have little impact in that regard. They seemed more likely to be intended to aggravate the bull so that he would charge again, and in that regard they seemed very effective.

And the foie gras point was merely to show that you are being hypocritical, it's nice that you have recognized it.

And this 'involve animal torture and needless killing - indeed, that is their raison d'être' is inconsistent with my experience and I'm willing to bet that those who regularly attend bull fights would strongly disagree with. Just because you repeat something endlessly doesn't make it true, Burney. One of the many interesting things about the bull fights were how quiet the Spanish were, they were endlessly telling the crowd to be quiet. There was loud cheering for the moments of skill from the matadors and respectful applause when the bull was finally killed. At one point one of the matadors, in an effort to encourage the bull to charge, put his cape behind him, stood about 2 feet in front of the bull and placed his hand on the bull's nose. You could have heard a pin drop in the stadium at that moment. Had the bull charged the matador would have had no chance. Eventually he did and the matador side stepping him was met with a large round of applause.

My view would have been much like yours prior to me attending, Burney, however my experience tells me that the moral indignation that people express with respect the suffering of the bull and the spectacle itself it is actually slightly misplaced, certainly when compared to the suffering that animals that we eat endure.

[redgunamo]

If you were to argue that on our road to civilisation we may have thrown some babies out with the bathwater, I might agree. However, think stabbing bulls for fun is pretty much indefensible.

Sorry I missed it earlier :-)

[Peter]

Yes, of course. I know. I just like Peter's sort to confront that truth, to admit it even to themselves :-)

Admit what?

[redgunamo]

Admit what?

........ *It*

[Peter]

........ *It*

I might but would like to know what it is first.

This is me being reasonable.

[Monty92]

I might but would like to know what it is first.

This is me being reasonable.

It is not redgunamo's job to decrypt his posts for us. Like post-modern art, their meaning is relative, fluid and open to personal interpretation.

[Peter]

It is not redgunamo's job to decrypt his posts for us. Like post-modern art, their meaning is relative, fluid and open to personal interpretation.

Is it also *******s, like post-modern art?

[redgunamo]

It is not redgunamo's job to decrypt his posts for us. Like post-modern art, their meaning is relative, fluid and open to personal interpretation.

Well said, M. And thank you.

I actually had a red herring for breakfast yesterday; it's a popular hangover cure in foreign parts. I understand it's the beetroot juice what does it.

[Sir C]

Well said, M. And thank you.

I actually had a red herring for breakfast yesterday; it's a popular hangover cure in foreign parts. I understand it's the beetroot juice what does it.

A red herring is a bloater, isn't it? Like your mum.

[Ash]

I actually had a red herring for breakfast yesterday; it's a popular hangover cure in foreign parts. I understand it's the beetroot juice what does it.

Might explain the popularity and success of Borscht.

[redgunamo]

A red herring is a bloater, isn't it? Like your mum.

No, it's actually a kipper. Like *your* mum.

[SWv2]

Well said, M. And thank you.

I actually had a red herring for breakfast yesterday; it's a popular hangover cure in foreign parts. I understand it's the beetroot juice what does it.

Would not be a fan of beetroot. Oh no.

[Luis Anaconda]

Would not be a fan of beetroot. Oh no.

Wise man - I am fairly sure the devil invented beetroot. Or Delia Smith - one of those manifestations of evil, anyway

[redgunamo]

Oddly enough, I'm not sure that's true. Support for judicial execution in this the west, for instance, started to wane in popularity after it ceased to be a public spectacle rather than before. It started to be seen as something covert and shameful.

Anyway, isn't that just yet another red herring? When was the last time anybody in Europe had a proper vote on capital punishment? Perhaps people's views would change if the television news always made a point of showing real crime scenes and what-have-you in all its graphic detail, the way they try to do in television drama; see how "entertaining" people find it then?

Maybe we'd all be surprised, or more likely not. Could it be that it's too easy, morally, to be against judicial killing when people are never fully confronted with the real-life actions of the people they're saving from the chair. Who knows, having to explain these things to one's children might add a different flavour to one's morality. I don't see how hiding and sheltering from moral difficulties makes one a better person.#fakenews

I find it odd that people go mad for zombies or whatever fictional brutality in the name of entertainment and then go all coy and moral and squeamish when ISIS posts its latest hits on Youtube. I don't know these people, the poor victims, anyway so they're no more or less real to me than MacBeth or your aunt's canary. So, what difference does it make.

[redgunamo]

Would not be a fan of beetroot. Oh no.

Oh, same here. It's just a dressing for the fish, a catalyst for change, as it were.

It never works though, of course.