Nearly had to kick my radio in listening to the Today programme this morning

[Burney]

Tony Blair's damp-eyed, husky-voiced eulogy for the Butcher of Bogside would have made a goat puke. Repulsive pieces of shït both.

[SWv2]

Tony Blair's damp-eyed, husky-voiced eulogy for the Butcher of Bogside would have made a goat puke. Repulsive pieces of shït both.


McGuinness did a lot for good, for both sides of the population in the North, in recent times so for that alone I won’t rush to completely dismiss him as many others will. That is not to say he should in any way be portrayed as some kind of saint as he was very clearly not.

The troubles were an unfortunate time in Ireland’s history with no parties involved emerging without blame.

[Burney]

McGuinness did a lot for good, for both sides of the population in the North, in recent times so for that alone I won’t rush to completely dismiss him as many others will. That is not to say he should in any way be portrayed as some kind of saint as he was very clearly not.

The troubles were an unfortunate time in Ireland’s history with no parties involved emerging without blame.

Bullshït. He was a torturer and a mass murderer who only came to the table because he knew the IRA was beaten and the Peace Process was the best deal they were going to get.
Plenty of people lived through the same period in the same place and never murdered anyone. Fück him. I hope his death was as painful as that of his victims.

[SWv2]

Bullshït. He was a torturer and a mass murderer who only came to the table because he knew the IRA was beaten and the Peace Process was the best deal they were going to get.
Plenty of people lived through the same period in the same place and never murdered anyone. Fück him. I hope his death was as painful as that of his victims.

Fair enough.

[Sir C]

Tony Blair's damp-eyed, husky-voiced eulogy for the Butcher of Bogside would have made a goat puke. Repulsive pieces of shït both.

The general rush to declare him the next Mandela seems a little lacking in good taste.

His later conversion to dove-wielding peacenik, hardly excuses a career of terrorism. An acknowledgement of same would be nice.

[Burney]

Fair enough.

Apologies for going off at you like that. Probably best I avoid the media today.

[Burney]

The general rush to declare him the next Mandela seems a little lacking in good taste.

His later conversion to dove-wielding peacenik, hardly excuses a career of terrorism. An acknowledgement of same would be nice.

In the last two-minute segment of the programme, they did briefly try to touch on the fact that he was a terrifying psychopath, but this was soon drowned out by some ghastly hagiographer and curtailed by the end of the programme.

[SWv2]

Apologies for going off at you like that. Probably best I avoid the media today.

Not at all, absolutely no offence was taken.

I can 100% understand a reaction such as yours.

[Herbette Chapman - aged 15]

Not at all, absolutely no offence was taken.

I can 100% understand a reaction such as yours.

I think you are implying that b is some kind of reactionary?

[Herbette Chapman - aged 15]

Bullshït. He was a torturer and a mass murderer who only came to the table because he knew the IRA was beaten and the Peace Process was the best deal they were going to get.
Plenty of people lived through the same period in the same place and never murdered anyone. Fück him. I hope his death was as painful as that of his victims.

In what sense were the IRA beaten?

[Sir C]

In what sense were the IRA beaten?

SAS and 14 Int persuaded them they couldn't win militarily :shrug:

[Pokster]

Tony Blair's damp-eyed, husky-voiced eulogy for the Butcher of Bogside would have made a goat puke. Repulsive pieces of shït both.

Serves you right... should be listening to Radio 2's 24 hrs of 80's music... quailty tunes imo

[Herbette Chapman - aged 15]

SAS and 14 Int persuaded them they couldn't win militarily :shrug:
Winning militarily was never their objective C - they were a terrorist organisation. I'd say they were reasonably successful at that.

Who is this 14 Int by the way? /

[Burney]

In what sense were the IRA beaten?

They were riddled with informers to the highest levels of the Army Council. Equally, electronic surveillance had come on in leaps and bounds, so British security forces knew about most of their operations before they happened. They were reduced to attacking soft targets in NI and the British mainland involving either rogue units (like the Real IRA) or cells who weren't reporting directly up the chain of command. Problem with that was that it led to appalling publicity from catastrophic events like Omagh, which lost them funding from American dipshîts. Once 9/11 happened, of course, the game was up completely, since their funding simply stopped overnight and they were rendered pretty much impotent.

That, of course, is the thing: it would be basically impossible for the IRA to resume a sustained campaign of violence now even if it wanted to. It hasn't got the money, it no longer has the arms and it hasn't got the personnel.

[redgunamo]

SAS and 14 Int persuaded them they couldn't win militarily :shrug:

It's the onset of middle-age, innit. Those practical arguments chaps would've roundly dismissed only a short time before suddenly begin to ring true and make sense. I've seen it all over the world.

There always seems to come a point when a chap wants to just cash out, grab his girl and go off and live a quiet life. Very few want to keep running and fighting forever. The ones that *do* want to carry on quickly end up dead :-\

[Burney]

Winning militarily was never their objective C - they were a terrorist organisation. I'd say they were reasonably successful at that.

Who is this 14 Int by the way? /

Incorrect. They did want to win militarily. They failed utterly in that objective. Effective peace terms along the lines of the Good Friday Agreement were on the table in 1974, but the IRA and Protestant paramilitaries kiboshed them. The IRA then went on to pursue war for nearly a quarter of a century more because they didn't want civil rights, equality and peace, they wanted the Brits out and they believed they could achieve that by violence. They couldn't. Ergo, they lost.

[Sir C]

Winning militarily was never their objective C - they were a terrorist organisation. I'd say they were reasonably successful at that.

Who is this 14 Int by the way? /

The Det. Special forces surveillance detachment. I don't know if they continued operations after Ireland.

[Burney]

It's the onset of middle-age, innit. Those practical arguments chaps would've roundly dismissed only a short time before suddenly begin to ring true and make sense. I've seen it all over the world.

There always seems to come a point when a chap wants to just cash out, grab his girl and go off and live a quiet life. Very few want to keep running and fighting forever. The ones that *do* want to carry on quickly end up dead :-\

Of course it's always necessary to make deals with the devil for peace. There's no such thing as unconditional surrender in conflicts like Northern Ireland, since the resentment such a conclusion would engender would only breed more conflict. So I don't condemn our politicians for ending the conflict by the means they did (although allowing murderers out of jail and general amnesties stick in the craw). However, I refuse to tolerate these airbrushed fond farewells of a man who has that much blood on his hands.

[Sir C]

Of course it's always necessary to make deals with the devil for peace. There's no such thing as unconditional surrender in conflicts like Northern Ireland, since the resentment such a conclusion would engender would only breed more conflict. So I don't condemn our politicians for ending the conflict by the means they did (although allowing murderers out of jail and general amnesties stick in the craw). However, I refuse to tolerate these airbrushed fond farewells of a man who has that much blood on his hands.

The chap who murdered Louis Mountbatten got out, didn't he? I wonder how Her Majesty felt, having to shake hands with McGuinness.

[redgunamo]

Of course it's always necessary to make deals with the devil for peace. There's no such thing as unconditional surrender in conflicts like Northern Ireland, since the resentment such a conclusion would engender would only breed more conflict. So I don't condemn our politicians for ending the conflict by the means they did (although allowing murderers out of jail and general amnesties stick in the craw). However, I refuse to tolerate these airbrushed fond farewells of a man who has that much blood on his hands.

At some point, everybody just wants to move on, I think, and that seems to be part of that process.

[Burney]

The chap who murdered Louis Mountbatten got out, didn't he? I wonder how Her Majesty felt, having to shake hands with McGuinness.

She's shaken hands with worse, I suppose. She knows it's the job. :shrug:

Mind you, I imagine she burnt the gloves afterwards.

[redgunamo]

She's shaken hands with worse, I suppose. She knows it's the job. :shrug:

Right :nod:

[Sir C]

She's shaken hands with worse, I suppose. She knows it's the job. :shrug:

Mind you, I imagine she burnt the gloves afterwards.

Yes, but she was close to Louis. He was like a second father to Charles. :-(

[Herbette Chapman - aged 15]

The IRA then went on to pursue war for nearly a quarter of a century more because they didn't want civil rights, equality and peace, they wanted the Brits out and they believed they could achieve that by violence. They couldn't. Ergo, they lost.

British troops left NI 10 years ago so I would say the Brits are out. The leading figures of the enemy were then invited to the table and afforded positions of power in the democratic apparatus which hardly equates to military defeat. Be rather like offering Heydrich a seat in the The Cabinet.

[Burney]

At some point, everybody just wants to move on, I think, and that seems to be part of that process.

Businesslike formalities are one thing, but we've got arseholes like Cambell and Blair calling him 'a great guy' and 'very tender'. Corbyn said he was 'a great family man'.

Number 10's statement got it about right. Never calls him a total shïtbag, but by not saying he's not makes it clear he probably was.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/prime-ministers-statement-on-the-death-of-martin-mcguinness

[SWv2]

Yes, but she was close to Louis. He was like a second father to Charles. :-(

Probably was his father, you know how these so-called royals like to put it about.

The dead bloke probably climbed up on Lizzie at one her garden parties which are essentially swinging events.

[Herbette Chapman - aged 15]

The Det. Special forces surveillance detachment. I don't know if they continued operations after Ireland.
Will you stop it with these fúcking abbreviations and acronyms! - what is Det. supposed to mean?

And who is that in your picture thingy in the very splendid hat?

[redgunamo]

Businesslike formalities are one thing, but we've got arseholes like Cambell and Blair calling him 'a great guy' and 'very tender'. Corbyn said he was 'a great family man'.

Number 10's statement got it about right. Never calls him a total shïtbag, but by not saying he's not makes it clear he probably was.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/prime-ministers-statement-on-the-death-of-martin-mcguinness

Oh, I agree, but that's just politics; they're all in it together. Like footballers.

[redgunamo]

Probably was his father, you know how these so-called royals like to put it about.

The dead bloke probably climbed up on Lizzie at one her garden parties which are essentially swinging events.

Please don't say that; my own parents were regular guests at those functions :-|

[Sir C]

Will you stop it with these fúcking abbreviations and acronyms! - what is Det. supposed to mean?

And who is that in your picture thingy in the very splendid hat?

14 Intelligence Company, known as The Det, undercover loonies who collected intelligence for MI5 and undermined the Ra :shrug:

It's Tim McGraw, a fine singer of both types of music, country and western.

[Burney]

British troops left NI 10 years ago so I would say the Brits are out. The leading figures of the enemy were then invited to the table and afforded positions of power in the democratic apparatus which hardly equates to military defeat. Be rather like offering Heydrich a seat in the The Cabinet.

You're conflating 'Brits Out' with 'Troops Out'. The troops were only there because of IRA violence. Once that stopped, there was no need for them. They left because they'd won, not because they IRA had beaten them.
They were offered seats at the table in a power-sharing government as a devolved part of the United Kingdom in return for abandoning the armed struggle, handing over their weapons and operating purely by democratic means. That was a million miles from their stated war aims of fighting the British until they gave up and left Northern Ireland to unite with the Republic and, as I said, was basically the same deal that had been on the table in 1974.

Let me ask you something: in a war, which side usually has to hand over their arms? Is it the winners?

[redgunamo]

Incorrect. They did want to win militarily. .. They couldn't. Ergo, they lost.

Yes, military forces invariably do, but there's always wider issues at stake.

[SWv2]

You're conflating 'Brits Out' with 'Troops Out'. The troops were only there because of IRA violence. Once that stopped, there was no need for them. They left because they'd won, not because they IRA had beaten them.
They were offered seats at the table in a power-sharing government as a devolved part of the United Kingdom in return for abandoning the armed struggle, handing over their weapons and operating purely by democratic means. That was a million miles from their stated war aims of fighting the British until they gave up and left Northern Ireland to unite with the Republic and, as I said, was basically the same deal that had been on the table in 1974.

Let me ask you something: in a war, which side usually has to hand over their arms? Is it the winners?

I actually don't think any party can really claim to have won.

[Herbette Chapman - aged 15]

Yes, but she was close to Louis. He was like a second father to Charles. :-(

Thirteen dead and not forgotten
we got fourteen and Mountbatten

[Norn Iron]

I wonder what sort of funeral it will be? He was always IRA first imo. He was proud of the IRA. They can't go with any IRA type funeral after him being the Deputy First Minister, can they?

[Herbette Chapman - aged 15]

Please don't say that; my own parents were regular guests at those functions :-|

Oh dear. I expect Lord Louis mounted your mum a few times. Do you have a certain something of the teuton about you Red?

[redgunamo]

Oh dear. I expect Lord Louis mounted your mum a few times. Do you have a certain something of the teuton about you Red?

My wife :rubchin:

[Herbette Chapman - aged 15]

14 Intelligence Company, known as The Det, undercover loonies who collected intelligence for MI5 and undermined the Ra :shrug:

It's Tim McGraw, a fine singer of both types of music, country and western.

So we draw our information now from folk music do we? Works for me C - better than any bloody fake news

[Burney]

I actually don't think any party can really claim to have won.

In the sense that the UK government's aims were only ever to hold the circle and achieve peaceful and democratic co-existence between the parties, I'd say it's hard to argue they didn't achieve them, since that's what we now have.

[SWv2]

I wonder what sort of funeral it will be? He was always IRA first imo. He was proud of the IRA. They can't go with any IRA type funeral after him being the Deputy First Minister, can they?

I would assume not. Perhaps some nod to the past but none of the marked men and armed salutes at graveside.

[Burney]

I wonder what sort of funeral it will be? He was always IRA first imo. He was proud of the IRA. They can't go with any IRA type funeral after him being the Deputy First Minister, can they?

It would be a bit embarrassing given all the 'man of peace' rhetoric now doing the rounds if a handful of middle-aged, raggedy-arsed tossers in balaclavas, combat jackets and poorly-worn berets turned up and popped a few rounds over the graveside, I'd have thought.

Over here we all want to know if Corbyn will be stupid enough to go over and see all his old pals.

[SWv2]

In the sense that the UK government's aims were only ever to hold the circle and achieve peaceful and democratic co-existence between the parties, I'd say it's hard to argue they didn't achieve them, since that's what we now have.

Well one could argue that the role of the British Army (as opposed to the Government) was to defeat the IRA which they fundamentally did not do.

The only winners in the whole sorry affair are the people now living in a relatively peaceful country.

[redgunamo]

Well one could argue that the role of the British Army (as opposed to the Government) was to defeat the IRA which they fundamentally did not do.

The only winners in the whole sorry affair are the people now living in a relatively peaceful country.

I'm not sure *can* actually separate the two. Or can you.

[Burney]

Well one could argue that the role of the British Army (as opposed to the Government) was to defeat the IRA which they fundamentally did not do.

The only winners in the whole sorry affair are the people now living in a relatively peaceful country.

The army is simply a tool of government. It has no war aims other than those ascribed to it by the government. :shrug:

[redgunamo]

Well one could argue that the role of the British Army (as opposed to the Government) was to defeat the IRA which they fundamentally did not do.

The only winners in the whole sorry affair are the people now living in a relatively peaceful country.

Seen. That's the main thing to keep in mind.

[Luis Anaconda]

It would be a bit embarrassing given all the 'man of peace' rhetoric now doing the rounds if a handful of middle-aged, raggedy-arsed tossers in balaclavas, combat jackets and poorly-worn berets turned up and popped a few rounds over the graveside, I'd have thought.

Over here we all want to know if Corbyn will be stupid enough to go over and see all his old pals.
I think we all know the answer to that last question is yes. Whether Seamus Milne and his cronies are stupid enough to let him is another matter. Will take his mind of last night's disastrous PLP meeting anyway

[redgunamo]

The army is simply a tool of government. It has no war aims other than those ascribed to it by the government. :shrug:

The military wing of government, as it were.

[Burney]

I think we all know the answer to that last question is yes. Whether Seamus Milne and his cronies are stupid enough to let him is another matter. Will take his mind of last night's disastrous PLP meeting anyway

They might have to strap him to his chair and lock him in his office to stop him going over there to stick his fist in the air and shout 'Tiocfaidh ár lá!' in front of the world's press. :hehe:

[Burney]

The military wing of government, as it were.

Indeed. If it starts developing its own war aims, it becomes the government and then you've got scenes.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

I think McGuinness was probably better company than Adams, he seemed to have a sense of humour. But that's as good as it gets.

The IRA won. They won in the way terrorists win, not by winning but by not losing. Unless you crush terrorists by slaughtering them and their families and friends and supporters and sympathisers, there's always one to carry out an attack which create the same fear and uncertainty whatever the effect. The IRA was not in Al Qaeda league but they messed up UK for decades.

They won because they gained a share of power and an agreement which legitimised their violence at the expense of moderate Republicans (who remembers the SDLP now?).

They won because demographics dictates that in a very few years there will be a Catholic, pro-Eire majority in Ulster. At that point there will be a referendum and Ulster will vote to leave UK. Many opposed to this will move to UK, they will be followed - as happened after the creation of the Irish Free State etc - by many Catholics, some of whom may vote to stay in UK and some who will vote to leave but still take advantage of the incredibly lax and stupid attitude of UK who treats the Irish people as if they were sons from an errant province that might return to their fold rather than citizens of an entirely different country.

They won because a piece of **** party whose only political weapons were violence and extremism is in the process of establishing itself as the main party both sides of the border.

[Burney]

I think McGuinness was probably better company than Adams, he seemed to have a sense of humour. But that's as good as it gets.

The IRA won. They won in the way terrorists win, not by winning but by not losing. Unless you crush terrorists by slaughtering them and their families and friends and supporters and sympathisers, there's always one to carry out an attack which create the same fear and uncertainty whatever the effect. The IRA was not in Al Qaeda league but they messed up UK for decades.

They won because they gained a share of power and an agreement which legitimised their violence at the expense of moderate Republicans (who remembers the SDLP now?).

They won because demographics dictates that in a very few years there will be a Catholic, pro-Eire majority in Ulster. At that point there will be a referendum and Ulster will vote to leave UK. Many opposed to this will move to UK, they will be followed - as happened after the creation of the Irish Free State etc - by many Catholics, some of whom may vote to stay in UK and some who will vote to leave but still take advantage of the incredibly lax and stupid attitude of UK who treats the Irish people as if they were sons from an errant province that might return to their fold rather than citizens of an entirely different country.

They won because a piece of **** party whose only political weapons were violence and extremism is in the process of establishing itself as the main party both sides of the border.

The demographics were always shifting that way (although, actually, support for reunification in the catholic community is not exactly staunch). If you think the aim of fighting the IRA was to cling on to Northern Ireland at all costs, you're mad. We don't want it, but we recognise that, while a majority of its population wants to be part of the UK, we have to respect that. If it shifts and it can be done peacefully, we will let it go its own sweet way.

The aim of the UK in Northern Ireland was to keep the lid on it, not allow it to descend into outright civil war and bring it to a peaceful condition whereby it can determine its own future. The characterisation of it as some sort of colonial war with Britain desperate to keep Northern Ireland is entirely false. The SDLP went because it only existed to represent a non-violent nationalist electorate. With the IRA's renunciation of violence, Sinn Fein has taken on that mantle and the SDLP is effectively redundant.

[SWv2]

I think McGuinness was probably better company than Adams, he seemed to have a sense of humour. But that's as good as it gets.

The IRA won. They won in the way terrorists win, not by winning but by not losing. Unless you crush terrorists by slaughtering them and their families and friends and supporters and sympathisers, there's always one to carry out an attack which create the same fear and uncertainty whatever the effect. The IRA was not in Al Qaeda league but they messed up UK for decades.

They won because they gained a share of power and an agreement which legitimised their violence at the expense of moderate Republicans (who remembers the SDLP now?).

They won because demographics dictates that in a very few years there will be a Catholic, pro-Eire majority in Ulster. At that point there will be a referendum and Ulster will vote to leave UK. Many opposed to this will move to UK, they will be followed - as happened after the creation of the Irish Free State etc - by many Catholics, some of whom may vote to stay in UK and some who will vote to leave but still take advantage of the incredibly lax and stupid attitude of UK who treats the Irish people as if they were sons from an errant province that might return to their fold rather than citizens of an entirely different country.

They won because a piece of **** party whose only political weapons were violence and extremism is in the process of establishing itself as the main party both sides of the border.


The first bit is a little harsh I would suggest and the second an error which many make, Ulster and Northern Ireland are two different and separate things.

[Burney]

The first bit is a little harsh I would suggest and the second an error which many make, Ulster and Northern Ireland are two different and separate things.

Mo doesn't seem to get that the British have done the slaughtering everyone thing several times before and it's proved remarkably ineffective at stamping out violent Irish nationalism.

t also rather like the idea that you can occupy/run a country for 900 years, treat it as part of the union, have untold familial, cultural and business ties develop over centuries and then treat its citizens as complete strangers the moment they get independence.

[Sir C]

Mo doesn't seem to get that the British have done the slaughtering everyone thing several times before and it's proved remarkably ineffective at stamping out violent Irish nationalism.

t also rather like the idea that you can occupy/run a country for 900 years, treat it as part of the union, have untold familial, cultural and business ties develop over centuries and then treat its citizens as complete strangers the moment they get independence.

They definitely shouldn't be treated as strangers, because we know them only too well.

They should be treated as our bitterest, sworn enemies, but 70 years of socialism has rendered us physically and morally weak, so we pander to them. Do you know they are allowed to enter this country without showing identification? There should be, at the very least, a period of quarantine to keep their diseases out.

(I don't like them much.)

[Burney]

They definitely shouldn't be treated as strangers, because we know them only too well.

They should be treated as our bitterest, sworn enemies, but 70 years of socialism has rendered us physically and morally weak, so we pander to them. Do you know they are allowed to enter this country without showing identification? There should be, at the very least, a period of quarantine to keep their diseases out.

(I don't like them much.)

This seems rather harsh on your poor mother. :-(

[SWv2]

They definitely shouldn't be treated as strangers, because we know them only too well.

They should be treated as our bitterest, sworn enemies, but 70 years of socialism has rendered us physically and morally weak, so we pander to them. Do you know they are allowed to enter this country without showing identification? There should be, at the very least, a period of quarantine to keep their diseases out.

(I don't like them much.)

You have just consigned yourself to the rest of your life looking over your shoulder, pal.

[Sir C]

You have just consigned yourself to the rest of your life looking over your shoulder, pal.

A kneecapping, is it?

Why change the habits of a lifetime?

[Sir C]

This seems rather harsh on your poor mother. :-(

She, quite sensibly, renounced any connection with the place at the earliest possible opportunity, and as a British passport holder was as British as you or I.

Your racist taunts against my poor, dead mother will not rouse my ire, b. My hatred for them is a cold, clear flame of rage which burns with the focus of an oxyacetelene torch and will not be distracted.

[Norn Iron]

Interesting times ahead for Northern Ireland.

We're set for another election if we don't get an agreement before the 27th March. Sinn Fein were almost the biggest party last time. Brexit, Marty's death and the thought of actually having a chance of winning the election might bump them over the line.

I look at it from a Unionist point of view but it makes me sad that people choose to vote Sinn Fein. Being connected to murder enhances your political career in Northern Ireland. Look at Gerry's history, it's probably worse than Marty's.

[Norn Iron]

A kneecapping, is it?

Why change the habits of a lifetime?

I've SW pegged as a Sinn Fein/ IRA sympathiser. Just give me the nod C ;-)

[Burney]

Interesting times ahead for Northern Ireland.

We're set for another election if we don't get an agreement before the 27th March. Sinn Fein were almost the biggest party last time. Brexit, Marty's death and the thought of actually having a chance of winning the election might bump them over the line.

I look at it from a Unionist point of view but it makes me sad that people choose to vote Sinn Fein. Being connected to murder enhances your political career in Northern Ireland. Look at Gerry's history, it's probably worse than Marty's.

I take your point, of course, but I suppose the attitude is that a Sinn Fein explicitly committed to non-violent means is a huge step forward and that, as peace continues, the vestigial associations with its violent past will drop away. There is now a generation of voters that has never known conflict in Northern Ireland, so those associations that you and I have don't exist in their minds.

[Burney]

She, quite sensibly, renounced any connection with the place at the earliest possible opportunity, and as a British passport holder was as British as you or I.

Your racist taunts against my poor, dead mother will not rouse my ire, b. My hatred for them is a cold, clear flame of rage which burns with the focus of an oxyacetelene torch and will not be distracted.

We cannot renounce our births or upbringings, sadly. We can only escape them.

[SWv2]

I've SW pegged as a Sinn Fein/ IRA sympathiser. Just give me the nod C ;-)

Au contraire my Protestant friend, I am Catholic and if you wish to label me further then Nationalist but I have never supported war and ultimately the death of innocents.

I would gladly buy you a pint in a public demonstration of arms across the barricade.












Even though I bet you would not get me one back you tight dirty Hun.

[redgunamo]

I take your point, of course, but I suppose the attitude is that a Sinn Fein explicitly committed to non-violent means is a huge step forward and that, as peace continues, the vestigial associations with its violent past will drop away. There is now a generation of voters that has never known conflict in Northern Ireland, so those associations that you and I have don't exist in their minds.

I just said "vestigial" too. Now I feel like a fraud, a copycat :-(

[Ash]

Oh, I agree, but that's just politics; they're all in it together. Like footballers.

According to my old man some years ago, who has worked with all of them over there, McG, despite his past, was actually a very personable bloke to work with and get on with, and certainly showed more respect towards the Prods than, for example, Mo Mowlem, whose behaviour in front of them was appalling.

[SWv2]

According to my old man some years ago, who has worked with all of them over there, McG, despite his past, was actually a very personable bloke to work with and get on with, and certainly showed more respect towards the Prods than, for example, Mo Mowlem, whose behaviour in front of them was appalling.

Please A, bit of respect.

[Burney]

According to my old man some years ago, who has worked with all of them over there, McG, despite his past, was actually a very personable bloke to work with and get on with, and certainly showed more respect towards the Prods than, for example, Mo Mowlem, whose behaviour in front of them was appalling.

Mowlam was a ghastly woman and, being a lefty, entirely biased towards the provos.

[Sir C]

Mowlam was a ghastly woman and, being a lefty, entirely biased towards the provos.

She was the fat cow who looked like she had cancer, right?

All these left women sort of blur into one.

[Ash]

The troops were only there because of IRA violence.

ISTR they went in originally because of protestant violence against catholics.

[Burney]

She was the fat cow who looked like she had cancer, right?

All these left women sort of blur into one.

Yes. Although to be fair, she did have cancer.

Apparently she kept taking her wig off in meetings and grossing everyone out.

[Burney]

ISTR they went in originally because of protestant violence against catholics.

Yes, but that wasn't the reason they were still there in 1997.

[Luis Anaconda]

ISTR they went in originally because of protestant violence against catholics.

Basically it is all the fault of the Scots in the end. Surely we can all agree on that

[Sir C]

I've SW pegged as a Sinn Fein/ IRA sympathiser. Just give me the nod C ;-)

He seems to have some dreadful grudge against Her Majesty, norn. God only knows what he and his mates might do given access to some cheap Czech explosive and some innocent horses. :-(

[Ash]

The first bit is a little harsh I would suggest and the second an error which many make, Ulster and Northern Ireland are two different and separate things.

Mo might be interested to discover how the original plan for partition was for all nine counties of Ulster to become Northern Ireland, but three of them were too republican to ensure a pro-British majority, so it was reduced to six.

Also, very tempted to link to a certain SLF track at this point.

[SWv2]

He seems to have some dreadful grudge against Her Majesty, norn. God only knows what he and his mates might do given access to some cheap Czech explosive and some innocent horses. :-(

Absolutely no grudge whatsoever old boy, in fact I defended the old doll in the face of some abuse a few years ago when she visited Dublin.

Simply saying she is not my superior. I am not really sure why this would wind you up so much.

[SWv2]

Mo might be interested to discover how the original plan for partition was for all nine counties of Ulster to become Northern Ireland, but three of them were too republican to ensure a pro-British majority, so it was reduced to six.

Also, very tempted to link to a certain SLF track at this point.

I read a certain Arsenal blog yesterday laced with Stranglers references and had a little chuckle to myself.

[Burney]

Mo might be interested to discover how the original plan for partition was for all nine counties of Ulster to become Northern Ireland, but three of them were too republican to ensure a pro-British majority, so it was reduced to six.

Also, very tempted to link to a certain SLF track at this point.

To be fair, though, the idea behind partition was simply to keep Ulster Unionists from losing their shįt and beating the crap out of the rest of Ireland. There was no particular interest in retaining the province of Ulster for its own sake.

The big mistake everyone makes when thinking about the Troubles is thinking that it was solely about managing the republican problem. It wasn't. It was about the Brits managing the republican problem rather than the loyalists doing so, which would have been much, much uglier.

[Ash]

Mowlam was a ghastly woman and, being a lefty, entirely biased towards the provos.

I think it was more about turning up for meetings looking a mess and swearing a lot, which shocked the likes of yer straight-laced Trimbles and Co.

[Sir C]

Yes. Although to be fair, she did have cancer.

Apparently she kept taking her wig off in meetings and grossing everyone out.

Ah yes, that's right. I sort of used to confuse her with the Widdecombe harridan as well.

[Ash]

I read a certain Arsenal blog yesterday laced with Stranglers references and had a little chuckle to myself.

:nod: I read that too. Something Better Change indeed.

[Burney]

Ah yes, that's right. I sort of used to confuse her with the Widdecombe harridan as well.

Fair to say that you wouldn't in either case. Although Widdecombe when younger might have been worth a punt.

535

[Ash]

To be fair, though, the idea behind partition was simply to keep Ulster Unionists from losing their shįt and beating the crap out of the rest of Ireland. There was no particular interest in retaining the province of Ulster for its own sake.

The big mistake everyone makes when thinking about the Troubles is thinking that it was solely about managing the republican problem. It wasn't. It was about the Brits managing the republican problem rather than the loyalists doing so, which would have been much, much uglier.

Another perspective might be that Britain had an empire at that point and losing your oldest colony doesn't look great, so some measure of authority had to be preserved. And not just over the colonial subjects; over the workers at home too, during a period of some instability.

[Burney]

Another perspective might be that Britain had an empire at that point and losing your oldest colony doesn't look great, so some measure of authority had to be preserved. And not just over the colonial subjects; over the workers at home too, during a period of some instability.

Oddly enough, I don't think they cared. Our empire had just increased massively post-1918 and we were hopelessly over-stretched in terms of manpower. The Irish Home Rule thing had been rumbling on in the background for 50 years at that stage and Britain had no stomach for dealing with it. It had been obvious Ireland was going to have to have some form of self-determination for ages. The only question was how.
In terms of the attitudes, it comes down to race. Whatever the issues, Ireland was a white 'colony' and thus regarded completely differently to the various non-white colonies. It's a common mistake to think they'd have been seen similarly. People at the time simply wouldn't have seen it that way.