Is Wenger being selfish?

[Pat Vegas]

I think his whole contract scenario is the main cause of what we are seeing on the pitch.

He should have either made a choice or clearly say the decision will be made at the end of the season end of.

[redgunamo]

I think his whole contract scenario is the main cause of what we are seeing on the pitch.

He should have either made a choice or clearly say the decision will be made at the end of the season end of.

No, He is being strictly professional.

[Pat Vegas]

No, He is being strictly professional.

Well it seems to be interfering with his job
as he's not doing his football manger job very well.

[redgunamo]

Well it seems to be interfering with his job
as he's not doing his football manger job very well.

That's exactly it. His job is to manage the club and team, not to guarantee or underwrite victory.

[Pat Vegas]

That's exactly it. His job is to manage the club and team, not to guarantee or underwrite victory.

What an amazing job. and if they sack you they pay to the remainder of a contract.

we should all have contracts like that.

[SWv2]

I think his whole contract scenario is the main cause of what we are seeing on the pitch.

He should have either made a choice or clearly say the decision will be made at the end of the season end of.

I suspect he has made his choice and further that the board know of his decision.

The rest is simply PR however while results continue to be unsatisfactory the release of the statement becomes more troublesome.

[Pat Vegas]

I suspect he has made his choice and further that the board know of his decision.

The rest is simply PR however while results continue to be unsatisfactory the release of the statement becomes more troublesome.

When is season ticket renewal time?

[SWv2]

When is season ticket renewal time?

May/June however his contract will make not a jot of difference in this respect.

A lot of ST holders have been attending Arsenal matches before Wenger came to the club and will continue to do so.

[Rich]

I suspect he has made his choice and further that the board know of his decision.

The rest is simply PR however while results continue to be unsatisfactory the release of the statement becomes more troublesome.

For the sake of clarity - you are insinuating that you believe that He will stay but they cannot announce it when we lose every game? Or you think He will leave but announcing it now would make it seem like a knee-jerk reaction?

[redgunamo]

For the sake of clarity - you are insinuating that you believe that He will stay but they cannot announce it when we lose every game? Or you think He will leave but announcing it now would make it seem like a knee-jerk reaction?

The former. Around twenty years in the job discounts the knee-jerk argument, imo; He's seen plenty of difficult times before.

[Viva Prat Vegas]

No, He is being strictly professional.

Hi Ty :wave:

[SWv2]

For the sake of clarity - you are insinuating that you believe that He will stay but they cannot announce it when we lose every game? Or you think He will leave but announcing it now would make it seem like a knee-jerk reaction?

The former.

Announcing another 2 years when we have just been handed our arses by Bayern Munich or beaten with relative ease at WBA is not the way forward.

We really need to win the cup semi-final.

[Rich]

The former.

Announcing another 2 years when we have just been handed our arses by Bayern Munich or beaten with relative ease at WBA is not the way forward.

We really need to win the cup semi-final.

I'm not sure I've ever said it before, but I really hope Berni is right. It seems that the Board are in a huge minority in wanting him to stay. He said that He'd listen to the fans when making his decision.

He's a ****ing liar.

[SWv2]

I'm not sure I've ever said it before, but I really hope Berni is right. It seems that the Board are in a huge minority in wanting him to stay. He said that He'd listen to the fans when making his decision.

He's a ****ing liar.

Well it is a tricky one Richard.

He shouldn’t really listen to fans, nor should any manager.

To walk away now, which I think he should, is to more or less admit he cannot see himself as capable of arresting whatever is wrong at the club and recent form does suggest there is issues, recent form and some would say repeated errors year on year.

Then having come clean and admitted the above he really is a busted flush. What top club does he go to next, will there be a queue of suitors as there would have been in the past. I am unconvinced the really big teams in Europe will want him as he is seen to have failed in his job in N5 over a lengthy period of time.

[Billy Goat Sverige]

Well it is a tricky one Richard.

He shouldn’t really listen to fans, nor should any manager.

To walk away now, which I think he should, is to more or less admit he cannot see himself as capable of arresting whatever is wrong at the club and recent form does suggest there is issues, recent form and some would say repeated errors year on year.

Then having come clean and admitted the above he really is a busted flush. What top club does he go to next, will there be a queue of suitors as there would have been in the past. I am unconvinced the really big teams in Europe will want him as he is seen to have failed in his job in N5 over a lengthy period of time.

He can **** off to China.

[redgunamo]

Hi Ty :wave:

:nod: :hehe: looooooooooooooool.

[Ash]

Then having come clean and admitted the above he really is a busted flush. What top club does he go to next, will there be a queue of suitors as there would have been in the past. I am unconvinced the really big teams in Europe will want him as he is seen to have failed in his job in N5 over a lengthy period of time.

Hmm. The managerial merry-go-round at the big clubs seems to happily appoint managers who have failed at their previous jobs. He could probably go to Barcelona and have a decent shout of winning the European Cup. Mourinho was taking Chelsea down when he was sacked then given the Man Utd job.

It looks like if players can change their manager by being **** if they don't want him. Not the first time the Chelsea players have got rid of a manager. See also Leicester.

[7sisters]

Well it is a tricky one Richard.

He shouldn’t really listen to fans, nor should any manager.

To walk away now, which I think he should, is to more or less admit he cannot see himself as capable of arresting whatever is wrong at the club and recent form does suggest there is issues, recent form and some would say repeated errors year on year.

Then having come clean and admitted the above he really is a busted flush. What top club does he go to next, will there be a queue of suitors as there would have been in the past. I am unconvinced the really big teams in Europe will want him as he is seen to have failed in his job in N5 over a lengthy period of time.

The smart move would be to **** off over to FIFA. Usher in a wave of honesty and credibility. He's just what they need.
Sadly, my money's still on the old ******* not accepting his age and now all too obvious limitations.

[SWv2]

Hmm. The managerial merry-go-round at the big clubs seems to happily appoint managers who have failed at their previous jobs. He could probably go to Barcelona and have a decent shout of winning the European Cup. Mourinho was taking Chelsea down when he was sacked then given the Man Utd job.

It looks like if players can change their manager by being **** if they don't want him. Not the first time the Chelsea players have got rid of a manager. See also Leicester.

Well my thoughts there was largely influenced by a radio interview I listened to last week with some Spanish football person who openly declared that the Spanish giants would have no interest in him whatsoever as the general feeling there is one of utter amazement that he is still in his position after a decade of failure.

Mourinho had won a league title just 6 months or whatever before being sacked and let’s remember had also won 2 Champions Leagues, in essence one season of falling below standards was not enough to really damage his legacy.

I am not convinced AW, a deeply respected man of course, is still on that very top shelf as he heads towards retirement.

[World's End Stella]

That's exactly it. His job is to manage the club and team, not to guarantee or underwrite victory.

And what parameter would you use as a basis for determining whether or not he is doing the job well, red?

All of us should have year end appraisals, you know. :nod:

[IUFG]

And what parameter would you use as a basis for determining whether or not he is doing the job well, red?

All of us should have year end appraisals, you know. :nod:

If only there could be an objective scoring system applied so we would know whether the manager was improving, maintaining or declining in performance . . .

[World's End Stella]

Well it is a tricky one Richard.

He shouldn’t really listen to fans, nor should any manager.

To walk away now, which I think he should, is to more or less admit he cannot see himself as capable of arresting whatever is wrong at the club and recent form does suggest there is issues, recent form and some would say repeated errors year on year.

Then having come clean and admitted the above he really is a busted flush. What top club does he go to next, will there be a queue of suitors as there would have been in the past. I am unconvinced the really big teams in Europe will want him as he is seen to have failed in his job in N5 over a lengthy period of time.

I would qualify that slightly, SW.

A manager should ignore the fans' view when it comes to managing the football club. His decisions should be taken solely based on what he thinks is best for the club and the team.

However, when it comes to whether he should stay or go, the fans' view is very important. The most important factor, I think you could argue.

[Rich]

I would qualify that slightly, SW.

A manager should ignore the fans' view when it comes to managing the football club. His decisions should be taken solely based on what he thinks is best for the club and the team.

However, when it comes to whether he should stay or go, the fans' view is very important. The most important factor, I think you could argue.

Well He has already said that the opinion of the fans will be important when it comes to making up his mind.

Wd Arsene imo.

[Ash]

Well He has already said that the opinion of the fans will be important when it comes to making up his mind.

Wd Arsene imo.

Part of the problem is Ivan saying a while back that the fans would decide. That is very literally inviting protest against Arsene. How is the 'opinion of the fans' measured anyway? Twitter? AWIMB? Aeroplanes? "We want to go!" songs? Muggy banners?

[Ash]

If only there could be an objective scoring system applied so we would know whether the manager was improving, maintaining or declining in performance . . .

I imagine the only KPI Stan cares about is the share price.

[redgunamo]

And what parameter would you use as a basis for determining whether or not he is doing the job well, red?

All of us should have year end appraisals, you know. :nod:

The bottom line? Perhaps our majority shareholder couldn't actually give a stuff about the FA Cup :shrug:

[redgunamo]

Well my thoughts there was largely influenced by a radio interview I listened to last week with some Spanish football person who openly declared that the Spanish giants would have no interest in him whatsoever as the general feeling there is one of utter amazement that he is still in his position after a decade of failure.

Mourinho had won a league title just 6 months or whatever before being sacked and let’s remember had also won 2 Champions Leagues, in essence one season of falling below standards was not enough to really damage his legacy.

I am not convinced AW, a deeply respected man of course, is still on that very top shelf as he heads towards retirement.

Foreigners though, no sentiment. They hire any old **** over there. But it doesn't much matter because they fire whoever it is just as easily.

[Alberto Balsam Rodriguez]

Well my thoughts there was largely influenced by a radio interview I listened to last week with some Spanish football person who openly declared that the Spanish giants would have no interest in him whatsoever as the general feeling there is one of utter amazement that he is still in his position after a decade of failure.

Mourinho had won a league title just 6 months or whatever before being sacked and let’s remember had also won 2 Champions Leagues, in essence one season of falling below standards was not enough to really damage his legacy.

I am not convinced AW, a deeply respected man of course, is still on that very top shelf as he heads towards retirement.


I wonder whether the PSG job will be open to him this summer?

[redgunamo]

I imagine the only KPI Stan cares about is the share price.

That still leaves room for a hundert million pound striker though, doesn't it #wengerIN

[redgunamo]

I wonder whether the PSG job will be open to him this summer?

I doubt they fancy playing Bayern or Barcelona every week any more than we do, to be honest.

[Ash]

That still leaves room for a hundert million pound striker though, doesn't it #wengerIN

As we've seen, spending the fackin money is no guarantee of anything. Our spending is the highest it has ever been, and we're on our worst run of form for 20 years. A two hundred million pound striker wouldn't get any service from this lot.

[SWv2]

I would qualify that slightly, SW.

A manager should ignore the fans' view when it comes to managing the football club. His decisions should be taken solely based on what he thinks is best for the club and the team.

However, when it comes to whether he should stay or go, the fans' view is very important. The most important factor, I think you could argue.

100% agree on the above but at this part of the conundrum I would point the finger at the board who have offered him the new deal.

I think we would both agree that Wenger probably believes he can turn this around so will sign, but that option perhaps should not even be available to him, the board having weighed up past years, past failures and decided that all in he has done a great job in the far past but is not the man for the future.

The whole scenario is at risk of descending into farce from boardroom level through management to playing staff. None of these three seperate parties are coming out of this with one ounce of credit.

[Ash]

100% agree on the above but at this part of the conundrum I would point the finger at the board who have offered him the new deal.

I think we would both agree that Wenger probably believes he can turn this around so will sign, but that option perhaps should not even be available to him, the board having weighed up past years, past failures and decided that all in he has done a great job in the far past but is not the man for the future.

The whole scenario is at risk of descending into farce from boardroom level through management to playing staff. None of these three seperate parties are coming out of this with one ounce of credit.

And yet some people would rather blame the fans.

[SWv2]

I wonder whether the PSG job will be open to him this summer?

Surely then he would utter some nonsense about financial doping and turn his back on them.

[redgunamo]

Part of the problem is Ivan saying a while back that the fans would decide. That is very literally inviting protest against Arsene. How is the 'opinion of the fans' measured anyway? Twitter? AWIMB? Aeroplanes? "We want to go!" songs? Muggy banners?

A poll obviously.

[Sir C]

100% agree on the above but at this part of the conundrum I would point the finger at the board who have offered him the new deal.

I think we would both agree that Wenger probably believes he can turn this around so will sign, but that option perhaps should not even be available to him, the board having weighed up past years, past failures and decided that all in he has done a great job in the far past but is not the man for the future.

The whole scenario is at risk of descending into farce from boardroom level through management to playing staff. None of these three seperate parties are coming out of this with one ounce of credit.

The mistake everyobe is making is thinking in terms of Wenger's 'failure'.

His employment status rests with 'the board', who are clearly beholden to the majority shareholder, who has a track record of buying sports clubs and running them as purely commercial entities without consideration of on the field success in terms of trophies.

As far as Kroenke is concerned, Arsene has done a wonderful job. I believe his shares are currently worth around 30% more than he paid for them and the club is cash rich. If I were Kroenke, I would pay Wenger whatever he wanted to stay for as long as he wanted. :shrug:

[SWv2]

And yet some people would rather blame the fans.

Well personally I don’t think the whole banners during matches and flying of planes with messages attached is of any help other than focusing the media on the circus.

Before and after games is fair enough.

I would suggest we are actually a laughing stock at the moment. Just imagine the mileage we would be getting from these events in N17.

[SWv2]

The mistake everyobe is making is thinking in terms of Wenger's 'failure'.

His employment status rests with 'the board', who are clearly beholden to the majority shareholder, who has a track record of buying sports clubs and running them as purely commercial entities without consideration of on the field success in terms of trophies.

As far as Kroenke is concerned, Arsene has done a wonderful job. I believe his shares are currently worth around 30% more than he paid for them and the club is cash rich. If I were Kroenke, I would pay Wenger whatever he wanted to stay for as long as he wanted. :shrug:

I cannot disagree with a word you have written.

[redgunamo]

..spending the fackin money is no guarantee of anything.

You sound like my wife :-(

Anyway, obviously it isn't, if you spend it on the wrong things.

[Sir C]

Well personally I don’t think the whole banners during matches and flying of planes with messages attached is of any help other than focusing the media on the circus.

Before and after games is fair enough.

I would suggest we are actually a laughing stock at the moment. Just imagine the mileage we would be getting from these events in N17.

Of course if the Wenger Out enthusiasts were a large majority, and if they really believed that they were acting in the club's best interests in having the manager removed, we would fail to sell half our season tickets this spring and then you'd see a reaction from the owner.

Of course these people will continue to pay as if they have no agency in the matter, and then moan about what they receive for their money :shrug:

[redgunamo]

The mistake everyobe is making is thinking in terms of Wenger's 'failure'.

His employment status rests with 'the board', who are clearly beholden to the majority shareholder, who has a track record of buying sports clubs and running them as purely commercial entities without consideration of on the field success in terms of trophies.

As far as Kroenke is concerned, Arsene has done a wonderful job. I believe his shares are currently worth around 30% more than he paid for them and the club is cash rich. If I were Kroenke, I would pay Wenger whatever he wanted to stay for as long as he wanted. :shrug:

Right. As I say, perfectly professional.

[SWv2]

Of course if the Wenger Out enthusiasts were a large majority, and if they really believed that they were acting in the club's best interests in having the manager removed, we would fail to sell half our season tickets this spring and then you'd see a reaction from the owner.

Of course these people will continue to pay as if they have no agency in the matter, and then moan about what they receive for their money :shrug:

Well I have to say I would not expect any supporter to give up on ST entitlement due to dislike of Wenger.

Football support transcends the individual and indeed the present.

[Sir C]

Well I have to say I would not expect any supporter to give up on ST entitlement due to dislike of Wenger.

Football support transcends the individual and indeed the present.

:hehe: You've properly embarrassed yourself there, old chap.

[Tony C]

He can't take the hint imo. Poor guy. He's been here so long and always thought he had a job for life. the thought of having to leave is difficult for him to take.

-

the problem with the performances this season is that they're the same performances we've seen for the last 2 season. just abysmal shockingly bad efforts where everyone looks like they've been on the lash the night before....although this season they seemed to have taken their sh*t to a completely new level.

I thought Ramsey vs Watford was pretty low but the West Brom defending took it even further.

The issue now is that we don't seem capable of raising our game to grind out the required wins for 4th place (or even 5th) everyone has given up.

We've always been to pick ourselves out and get the results needed...remember when we got 26 from 30 points in the last 10 games to nail Spurs on the last game of the season. No Chance of this team doing anything like that.

At this rate our best chance of Europe would be no have a tackle free last few games and try and get the Fail Play spot.

It's time for someone new. Someone young, fresh, determined and with new ideas. Wenger doesn't have the tactically know how for today's game or a willingness to even try something different.

Not sure what the issue is...board just have to be brave and firm and let him know they would like to go in a different direction.

[World's End Stella]

And yet some people would rather blame the fans.

True, but the majority of the people who would blame the fans are the same people who routinely denigrated the fans who have held the view that Wenger needed to go. They criticized their intellect, their social background, their maturity and even their mothers. Some of them were told they needed a new hobby.

So these same people are now faced with a choice; admit they were wrong and that the people they disparaged so viciously were right, or blame them again. Unsurprisingly many will choose to do the latter as they aren't big enough to do the former.

[SWv2]

:hehe: You've properly embarrassed yourself there, old chap.

Well it does. I don't particularly like any of our current players but it does not dilute support for the club. I actually dislike some of them, others I am simply indifferent to.

[Sir C]

Well it does. I don't particularly like any of our current players but it does not dilute support for the club. I actually dislike some of them, others I am simply indifferent to.

Yes, yes, but this idea that football fans 'deserve' something, or are in some way different to consumers of any other product, service or entertainment, is just a bit silly. If they don't want Wenger at the club and if they don't renew in sufficient numbers, he'll be gone. But turning up every week and moaning about what they're watching is a bit silly.

[SWv2]

Yes, yes, but this idea that football fans 'deserve' something, or are in some way different to consumers of any other product, service or entertainment, is just a bit silly. If they don't want Wenger at the club and if they don't renew in sufficient numbers, he'll be gone. But turning up every week and moaning about what they're watching is a bit silly.

You know as well as I do that a chap who walks away now may never get his ST back, so why should he walk away based on Wenger when the change he so desperately wants may be just around the corner?

I know chaps who absolutely hate Wenger but have been going since late 70s or early 80s, a similar vintage to you. I won’t resort to clichés such as it being in their blood or whatever but it is an absolutely massive part of their lives and will always be.

The current decline of Wenger should not impact that.

Silly? Perhaps so, but then so much about football is silly so we can dismiss that.

[redgunamo]

Would the Arsenal be better off if they took their custom elsewhere?

Nobody says fans must always agree with everything.



Yes, yes, but this idea that football fans 'deserve' something, or are in some way different to consumers of any other product, service or entertainment, is just a bit silly. If they don't want Wenger at the club and if they don't renew in sufficient numbers, he'll be gone. But turning up every week and moaning about what they're watching is a bit silly.

[Sir C]

You know as well as I do that a chap who walks away now may never get his ST back, so why should he walk away based on Wenger when the change he so desperately wants may be just around the corner?

I know chaps who absolutely hate Wenger but have been going since late 70s or early 80s, a similar vintage to you. I won’t resort to clichés such as it being in their blood or whatever but it is an absolutely massive part of their lives and will always be.

The current decline of Wenger should not impact that.

Silly? Perhaps so, but then so much about football is silly so we can dismiss that.

I'm terribly glad you didn't mention nonsense like it 'being in their blood', because we know, do we not, that supporting a club is a hobby; an occasionally emotional hobby, sometimes rooted in tribalism, sometimes driven by a sense of place or belonging, but still a hobby. Blokes who go to Middlesrough for a league game on a Tuesday night aren't doing anything for the club, they're going because they enjoy the experience (and possibly because they are social and sexual failures, but anyway). It is an entirely selfish matter and an entirely objective judgement. If you don't like it, don't go.

[redgunamo]

I'm terribly glad you didn't mention nonsense like it 'being in their blood', because we know, do we not, that supporting a club is a hobby; an occasionally emotional hobby, sometimes rooted in tribalism, sometimes driven by a sense of place or belonging, but still a hobby. Blokes who go to Middlesrough for a league game on a Tuesday night aren't doing anything for the club, they're going because they enjoy the experience (and possibly because they are social and sexual failures, but anyway). It is an entirely selfish matter and an entirely objective judgement. If you don't like it, don't go.

More sour grapes, is it :-(

[Yesterday Once More]

He is being selfish, of course, although which of us would resign from a job which paid that handsomely where we were allowed to pretty much set and adjust our own targets, accountable to no-one.

So while I have nothing left for him but contempt, in mitigation his bosses have been negligent for allowing him the licence which would bring out the greed in many of us. In other words, they have failed to save him from himself.

Yeah, he was once a very good manager but he has chosen money and self-delusion over being remembered for what he once achieved. Whenever he now deems fit to abdicate from his throne, "It's too late, baby, now it's too late...."

[Rich]

He is being selfish, of course, although which of us would resign from a job which paid that handsomely where we were allowed to pretty much set and adjust our own targets, accountable to no-one.

So while I have nothing left for him but contempt, in mitigation his bosses have been negligent for allowing him the licence which would bring out the greed in many of us. In other words, they have failed to save him from himself.

Yeah, he was once a very good manager but he has chosen money and self-delusion over being remembered for what he once achieved. Whenever he now deems fit to abdicate from his throne, "It's too late, baby, now it's too late...."

Hang on, maybe he's going to resign at the end of the season. How do we know he's not? All we have in hard evidence is that he has said he will manage at Arsenal or somewhere else next season and that Sir Chips said he appreciates that some fans are unhappy but they will reach a mutual decision for the long term future of the club.

[Ash]

Of course if the Wenger Out enthusiasts were a large majority, and if they really believed that they were acting in the club's best interests in having the manager removed, we would fail to sell half our season tickets this spring and then you'd see a reaction from the owner.

Of course these people will continue to pay as if they have no agency in the matter, and then moan about what they receive for their money :shrug:

This is based on the asumption that in football, supply-and-demand operates in the same way as every other business.

Which, of course, it completely doesn't.

[Ash]

True, but the majority of the people who would blame the fans are the same people who routinely denigrated the fans who have held the view that Wenger needed to go. They criticized their intellect, their social background, their maturity and even their mothers. Some of them were told they needed a new hobby.

So these same people are now faced with a choice; admit they were wrong and that the people they disparaged so viciously were right, or blame them again. Unsurprisingly many will choose to do the latter as they aren't big enough to do the former.

Whether he should leave now is not the same question as whether he should have left then.

Though the insults and abuse were/are never ok. From either side.

[Burney]

This is based on the asumption that in football, supply-and-demand operates in the same way as every other business.

Which, of course, it completely doesn't.

And yet these fans demand the service they feel they have paid for in the form of results and trophies and whatnot, don't they? They feel they are entitled to value for money based on what they pay. The fact that they're too stupid to realise that the club can only charge what the market will bear and - as long as they keep coming back - that's whatever the club likes does not alter the fact that the market is still operating around them.

They are the anomaly and - as long as they keep behaving anomalously - they'll get what they deserve.

[Ash]

And yet these fans demand the service they feel they have paid for in the form of results and trophies and whatnot, don't they? They feel they are entitled to value for money based on what they pay. The fact that they're too stupid to realise that the club can only charge what the market will bear and - as long as they keep coming back - that's whatever the club likes does not alter the fact that the market is still operating around them.

They are the anomaly and - as long as they keep behaving anomalously - they'll get what they deserve.

On one hand you are insisting that market rules apply, and fans are just stupid versions of customers for coming back, but if those customers demand value for money, as customers do in every other business you lampoon this as absurd. Can't have it both ways, imo.

Perhaps a way to understand it is to recognise that the football club holds a monopoly over supporters of that football club.

[World's End Stella]

On one hand you are insisting that market rules apply, and fans are just stupid versions of customers for coming back, but if those customers demand value for money, as customers do in every other business you lampoon this as absurd. Can't have it both ways, imo.

Perhaps a way to understand it is to recognise that the football club holds a monopoly over supporters of that football club.

Yes, well said. It's no different than telling someone that uses the Underground every day that they have no right to complain because they keep using it and paying for it.

It's nonsense and, as you said earlier, there is no comparison between someone who supports a football club and someone who chooses a product in a market economy, which is the parallel Burney is trying draw.

[Sir C]

Yes, well said. It's no different than telling someone that uses the Underground every day that they have no right to complain because they keep using it and paying for it.

It's nonsense and, as you said earlier, there is no comparison between someone who supports a football club and someone who chooses a product in a market economy, which is the parallel Burney is trying draw.

Travelling on the tube might well be a financial necessity. Going to watch your football team is an emotional, subjective decision. If you can't control your emotions you probably shouldn't be allowed out without an adult, should you?

[Burney]

Yes, well said. It's no different than telling someone that uses the Underground every day that they have no right to complain because they keep using it and paying for it.

It's nonsense and, as you said earlier, there is no comparison between someone who supports a football club and someone who chooses a product in a market economy, which is the parallel Burney is trying draw.

Your parallel with the tube is absurd. No-one goes on the tube for their amusement. They do it because they have to and there is in many cases no alternative. No-one needs to go to football. It is a leisure activity and nothing more. If people treat it as something more, more fool them.

[Burney]

On one hand you are insisting that market rules apply, and fans are just stupid versions of customers for coming back, but if those customers demand value for money, as customers do in every other business you lampoon this as absurd. Can't have it both ways, imo.

Perhaps a way to understand it is to recognise that the football club holds a monopoly over supporters of that football club.

I don't regard anyone who demands value for money as absurd. They are perfectly entitled to expect value for money, but only if they are prepared to use the other part of the customer's bargain and withdraw their custom if they don't get it. If they refuse to do that, they have no right to expect anything other than to get screwed.

As for your monopoly argument, it falls down on the basis that the monopoly is emotional and imposed purely by the customer on him- or herself. It's voluntary and imaginary, not imposed or real.

Now if you argued that the mere act of going to the football - that physical act of belonging - is actually what they're paying for, then you'd have a better case. However, if you accept that, then there is no way of defining what 'value for money' means in that context and thus no grounds for customer complaint as long as the club keeps letting them in.

[SWv2]

Your parallel with the tube is absurd. No-one goes on the tube for their amusement. They do it because they have to and there is in many cases no alternative. No-one needs to go to football. It is a leisure activity and nothing more. If people treat it as something more, more fool them.

Message reported to Fash (RIP).

[Burney]

Message reported to Fash (RIP).

Yes, but he's a special case may the Good Lord Baby Jesus rest his soul.

[World's End Stella]

Travelling on the tube might well be a financial necessity. Going to watch your football team is an emotional, subjective decision. If you can't control your emotions you probably shouldn't be allowed out without an adult, should you?

It might well not be, as well. They could cycle, run, walk, take a bus or drive for that matter. Just as someone who supports a football club could choose another hobby or even support another club. But that doesn't really matter because the motivation isn't the point.

The point is that they have chosen to take the Underground or support a particular club because they want to, it makes their life better. So to suggest that they have no right to complain once they have taken that decision simply because they have other options is a nonsense.

[Sir C]

It might well not be, as well. They could cycle, run, walk, take a bus or drive for that matter. Just as someone who supports a football club could choose another hobby or even support another club. But that doesn't really matter because the motivation isn't the point.

The point is that they have chosen to take the Underground or support a particular club because they want to, it makes their life better. So to suggest that they have no right to complain once they have taken that decision simply because they have other options is a nonsense.

This is madness. Suppose I choose to eat steak bought from Tesco, because I think eating steak makes my life better, but then find that the steak at Tesco is mass-produced, underhung, badly butchered rubbish; yet I continue to buy it and continue to moan about it and refuse to take my custom to a specialist butcher, or even to try the lamb. You would tell me I was a moron.

[Ash]

I don't regard anyone who demands value for money as absurd. They are perfectly entitled to expect value for money, but only if they are prepared to use the other part of the customer's bargain and withdraw their custom if they don't get it. If they refuse to do that, they have no right to expect anything other than to get screwed.

As for your monopoly argument, it falls down on the basis that the monopoly is emotional and imposed purely by the customer on him- or herself. It's voluntary and imaginary, not imposed or real.

Now if you argued that the mere act of going to the football - that physical act of belonging - is actually what they're paying for, then you'd have a better case. However, if you accept that, then there is no way of defining what 'value for money' means in that context and thus no grounds for customer complaint as long as the club keeps letting them in.

There is no elasticity of supply, though. We can't say "I'll come back in a years time please when you've debugged this iteration of the product" because there are only a limited number available. Most people aren't actually demanding trophies (though if they don't they get castigated by the pundosphere for accepting 'mediocrity'), but they are expecting the 11 massively-paid cùnts on the pitch to at least make some kind of effort. They should also expect a level of competence from the officials, with any technological help they may need, as with all other sports.

[Burney]

We can't say "I'll come back in a years time please when you've debugged this iteration of the product"

Yes. Yes you can. That's the point. There is no legal, moral or physical imperative making you go to the football. You can simply choose not to go because what you see on the pitch does not match what your expectations based on what you're paying. You just don't get to watch live games and save yourself plenty quid. Or you can go to another club like a lower-league team. :shrug:

Indeed, one could argue that, by not withdrawing your custom (and thus allowing the club to carry on with what it's doing with no financial penalty), the fans are actually perpetuating what they see as the problem. So, far from being victims in this situation, by failing to act decisively, they are complicit.

[Ash]

Yes. Yes you can. That's the point. There is no legal, moral or physical imperative making you go to the football. Indeed, one could argue that, by not withdrawing your custom (and thus allowing the club to carry on with what it's doing with no financial penalty), the fans are actually perpetuating what they see as the problem. So, far from being victims in this situation, by failing to act decisively, they are complicit.

You can walk away, but you can't come back in a year's time, because you'll have given up your ST. (Unless you've loaned it). That's what I mean by inelasticity of supply.

[redgunamo]

Now if you argued that the mere act of going to the football - that physical act of belonging - is actually what they're paying for, then you'd have a better case. However, if you accept that, then there is no way of defining what 'value for money' means in that context and thus no grounds for customer complaint as long as the club keeps letting them in.

No, it's more like me complaining about my daughter's American Express bill; the bitterness and resentment felt is in no way intended to imply a refusal, of any kind, to settle up on time and in full and forever. As Williams suggests (rather knowingly, I thought, for him. He must be having one of his days), it is at most just talk as one is, fundamentally, committed and wouldn't actually have it any other way in any case.

One may only take your view if one isn't, or doesn't feel, duty-bound or responsible. It's about what you believe in; I kept my season tickets even though I haven't regularly attended in over twenty years and anyway was never going to be the sort of middle-aged dad to go to the football. No, it's because I believed my (inevitable) sons should go.

It's as Kevin Keegan told us, years ago; at the end of the day, London trendies often have better things to do with their money than go to the football. Fair enough, everyone must make that choice for themselves. But to banter off those who do pledge to do so, while putting on dog about how great Wenger or Özil are the while, and at the same time refusing to actually contribute to their wages is rather inseemly, in my view.

[redgunamo]

Yes. Yes you can. That's the point. There is no legal, moral or physical imperative making you go to the football. You can simply choose not to go because what you see on the pitch does not match what your expectations based on what you're paying. You just don't get to watch live games and save yourself plenty quid. Or you can go to another club like a lower-league team. :shrug:

Indeed, one could argue that, by not withdrawing your custom (and thus allowing the club to carry on with what it's doing with no financial penalty), the fans are actually perpetuating what they see as the problem. So, far from being victims in this situation, by failing to act decisively, they are complicit.

No, it's more like paying tax; everyone still does it regardless. In fact, it's *exactly* like paying tax, albeit with a personal, private imperative, rather than merely a legally-imposed one.

[Ash]

No, it's more like paying tax; everyone still does it regardless. In fact, it's *exactly* like paying tax, albeit with a personal, private imperative, rather than merely a legally-imposed one.

It's love, that's what it is.

Unrequited love. :cry:

[redgunamo]

I would qualify that slightly, SW.

A manager should ignore the fans' view when it comes to managing the football club. His decisions should be taken solely based on what he thinks is best for the club and the team.

However, when it comes to whether he should stay or go, the fans' view is very important. The most important factor, I think you could argue.

"Managing the football club", aside from matters pertaining to the team, don't you mean? Otherwise it's all the same thing, ain't it?

The club and team are clearly well-run, so therefore we're essentially judging whether He should stay or go based on acts of God, i.e. the outcome of football matches. Not very professional, imo.

[redgunamo]

It's love, that's what it is.

Unrequited love. :cry:

Well, quite. We can't expect the likes of B and Sir C to credit that, can we.

Love is a practical, physical mechanism and also its own magical reward. But, so far as the club is concerned, it's all about bums on seats :-\

[World's End Stella]

Well, quite. We can't expect the likes of B and Sir C to credit that, can we.

Love is a practical, physical mechanism and also its own magical reward. But, so far as the club is concerned, it's all about bums on seats :-\

Quite. So while it's sensible for the club to consider bums in seats as a priority, it's also perfectly reasonable and sensible for a supporter to return each year because of this love, while at the same time having every right to point out what he dislikes about his love. The idea that he should just shut up or leave and support another club is as puerile as it is naive.