Any sign of Monty asking why we would want to replace Wenger with Klopp or Pochettino

[World's End Stella]

cause I think there may have been a pretty good answer on the telly last night.

[Monty92]

cause I think there may have been a pretty good answer on the telly last night.

Hang on, on every metric Wenger has a superior record in English football. Whether it's his initial impact in winning the league in his first full season (something neither of them has done), or currently being ahead of one of them in the table and on level points with the other (whom he also took his side further than in Europe) even at a time when his reputation has never been lower.

I can see why many would like us to take a punt on either of them (and have never said otherwise) but I don't see why it should be seen as a no-brainer that they are superior managers more capable of winning us the big trophies.

[World's End Stella]

Hang on, on every metric Wenger has a superior record in English football. Whether it's his initial impact in winning the league in his first full season (something neither of them has done), or currently being ahead of one of them in the table and on level points with the other (whom he also took his side further than in Europe) even at a time when his reputation has never been lower.

I can see why many would like us to take a punt on either of them (and have never said otherwise) but I don't see why it should be seen as no-brainer that they are superior managers more caapable of winning us the big trophies.

Credit where credit is due, Monty. At the very least you are consistent. :clap:

[Pat Vegas]

Hang on, on every metric Wenger has a superior record in English football. Whether it's his initial impact in winning the league in his first full season (something neither of them has done), or currently being ahead of one of them in the table and on level points with the other (whom he also took his side further than in Europe) even at a time when his reputation has never been lower.

I can see why many would like us to take a punt on either of them (and have never said otherwise) but I don't see why it should be seen as a no-brainer that they are superior managers more capable of winning us the big trophies.

That aside Monty what did you think of last nights Arsenal performance?

[SWv2]

Hang on, on every metric Wenger has a superior record in English football. Whether it's his initial impact in winning the league in his first full season (something neither of them has done), or currently being ahead of one of them in the table and on level points with the other (whom he also took his side further than in Europe) even at a time when his reputation has never been lower.

I can see why many would like us to take a punt on either of them (and have never said otherwise) but I don't see why it should be seen as a no-brainer that they are superior managers more capable of winning us the big trophies.

Not wishing to argue but I am not sure judging one achievement in 1998 and another in 2015 or whatever is an appropriate metric. I am not sure there really is one.

Individual comparison in general are futile as Pochetinno for example is working with a much smaller pool of resources and finances, Klopp also perhaps. The latter has also inherited a squad from other managers, some of whom he may not really like or want, our squad is 100% to a man players and staff that Wenger has handpicked and selected above others.

Would they be better under the current circumstances at our club? Who knows. Perhaps yes, perhaps no.

Some people want to find out. You appear to be afraid. I don’t mean that in a rude way either. I am too weak of will to really argue with you today.

[Peter]

Hang on, on every metric Wenger has a superior record in English football. Whether it's his initial impact in winning the league in his first full season (something neither of them has done), or currently being ahead of one of them in the table and on level points with the other (whom he also took his side further than in Europe) even at a time when his reputation has never been lower.

I can see why many would like us to take a punt on either of them (and have never said otherwise) but I don't see why it should be seen as a no-brainer that they are superior managers more capable of winning us the big trophies.

Do you think Wenger should stay? (apologies, I haven't been around for a while so I don't know the state of play on this)

[Monty92]

Do you think Wenger should stay? (apologies, I haven't been around for a while so I don't know the state of play on this)

I've absolutely no idea. If he finished in the top four again I'd personally be happy for him to continue, but the lack of support for him among the supporter base may make that untenable, in which case I guess regretably he should leave.

[Monty92]

Not wishing to argue but I am not sure judging one achievement in 1998 and another in 2015 or whatever is an appropriate metric. I am not sure there really is one.

Individual comparison in general are futile as Pochetinno for example is working with a much smaller pool of resources and finances, Klopp also perhaps. The latter has also inherited a squad from other managers, some of whom he may not really like or want, our squad is 100% to a man players and staff that Wenger has handpicked and selected above others.

Would they be better under the current circumstances at our club? Who knows. Perhaps yes, perhaps no.

Some people want to find out. You appear to be afraid. I don’t mean that in a rude way either. I am too weak of will to really argue with you today.

I'm not afraid at all. There are many perfectly good reasons for wanting a change and I unreservedly endorse every single one of them. I just don't see it as a no-brainer that a change will inevitably increase our chances of success.

[Peter]

I've absolutely no idea. If he finished in the top four again I'd personally be happy for him to continue, but the lack of support for him among the supporter base may make that untenable, in which case I guess regretably he should leave.

Do you think he is likely to achieve any better than that in the next three years? I am afraid I have no faith left in him.

Certainly, if he stays the squad needs a major clear out this summer. There is a glut of players who are never going to perform under him.

[Monty92]

Do you think he is likely to achieve any better than that in the next three years? I am afraid I have no faith left in him.

Certainly, if he stays the squad needs a major clear out this summer. There is a glut of players who are never going to perform under him.

I don't know. Currently only Chelsea look significantly better than us. I think it's odd that no-one is talking about Spurs, Liverpool Man Utd or Man City needing a major clear out.

[Pat Vegas]

I don't know. Currently only Chelsea look significantly better than us. I think it's odd that no-one is talking about Spurs, Liverpool Man Utd or Man City needing a major clear out.

Those 3 are building.
Spurs have improved under Pochettino and they are in the middle of planning a future move. They need stability.

Liverpool Klopp has not been there very long and is building his team. They have been poor at times it's quite a new squad.

Man City. plenty of people have suggested a clear out. Pep has only been there in the summer and I am sure plenty will change.

[Pokster]

I don't know. Currently only Chelsea look significantly better than us. I think it's odd that no-one is talking about Spurs, Liverpool Man Utd or Man City needing a major clear out.

It's obvious even to you surely, they all have managers who have only recently joined, they have also done a lot of clearing out and are trying to play the way their manager wants with new(er) players.... we sign players for a lot of money who don't seem to improve us from what we had

[redgunamo]

I don't know. Currently only Chelsea look significantly better than us. I think it's odd that no-one is talking about Spurs, Liverpool Man Utd or Man City needing a major clear out.

Except for Spurs, I think they are, albeit for different reasons. Manchester United, simply because they can, City and Liverpool to allow their managers to impose their style of play.

[Monty92]

It's obvious even to you surely, they all have managers who have only recently joined, they have also done a lot of clearing out and are trying to play the way their manager wants with new(er) players.... we sign players for a lot of money who don't seem to improve us from what we had

It still doesn't make sense. You have several clubs all at the same level of performance and yet only one of them needs a major clear out. I would understand if people said we need some tweaks to our squad, but surely if there was such a discrepancy between our squad and those of Spurs, Liverpool, etc, then this would be reflected in results?

[Monty92]

Those 3 are building.
Spurs have improved under Pochettino and they are in the middle of planning a future move. They need stability.

Liverpool Klopp has not been there very long and is building his team. They have been poor at times it's quite a new squad.

Man City. plenty of people have suggested a clear out. Pep has only been there in the summer and I am sure plenty will change.

So the idea that Klopp and Pochetinno are better than Wenger is predicated on the assumption that they will, given time, take their clubs to the next level, which is based on.....what? Their brilliant track records of leading clubs to glory in the Premier League?

[Pat Vegas]

It still doesn't make sense. You have several clubs all at the same level of performance and yet only one of them needs a major clear out. I would understand if people said we need some tweaks to our squad, but surely if there was such a discrepancy between our squad and those of Spurs, Liverpool, etc, then this would be reflected in results?

According to you, but I would say City and United fans are looking for the same clear outs.
Tottenham are happy in their current position they need stability.

[Peter]

I don't know. Currently only Chelsea look significantly better than us. I think it's odd that no-one is talking about Spurs, Liverpool Man Utd or Man City needing a major clear out.

Is it odd? Three of them have managers in their first full season and Spurs have been improving each year from a ****ty base.

We have a hardcore of our squad who have been there for years and some of them dramatically underperform. I can potentially see a role for the likes of Ox, Wilshere, even Ramsey under a new manager. I just don't see them responding well to the freedom Wenger gives them. Ramsey doesn't operate well in this formation.

[Pat Vegas]

So the idea that Klopp and Pochetinno are better than Wenger is predicated on the assumption that they will, given time, take their clubs to the next level, which is based on.....what? Their brilliant track records of leading clubs to glory in the Premier League?

That's not what I am saying. You are talking about clear outs.

Regardless of Arsene's historic records. There appears to be something wrong at the club. If you want to wait and keep Wenger there forever until we finally stop qualifying in the top 4 fair enough.

If everything was fine why are so many fans bored of it? they can't all be idiots. Also I am not suggesting we would replace Wenger with a manager from a rival.

[Monty92]

Is it odd? Three of them have managers in their first full season and Spurs have been improving each year from a ****ty base.

We have a hardcore of our squad who have been there for years and some of them dramatically underperform. I can potentially see a role for the likes of Ox, Wilshere, even Ramsey under a new manager. I just don't see them responding well to the freedom Wenger gives them. Ramsey doesn't operate well in this formation.

Yes it's definitely odd when all of these clubs are at a very similar level.

[redgunamo]

It still doesn't make sense. You have several clubs all at the same level of performance and yet only one of them needs a major clear out. I would understand if people said we need some tweaks to our squad, but surely if there was such a discrepancy between our squad and those of Spurs, Liverpool, etc, then this would be reflected in results?

Though, of course, none of their managers will still be there if they fail to win the league in ten years :-\

[Monty92]

That's not what I am saying. You are talking about clear outs.

Regardless of Arsene's historic records. There appears to be something wrong at the club. If you want to wait and keep Wenger there forever until we finally stop qualifying in the top 4 fair enough.

If everything was fine why are so many fans bored of it? they can't all be idiots. Also I am not suggesting we would replace Wenger with a manager from a rival.

Fans weren't bored a few months ago when we were winning more games. And if we win the next one, two or three they won't be bored either. You think the fans will be singing Wenger Out if we win the next two or three in a row? No, they'll sing it the next time we lose or have a bad result, which is a different thing entirely.

[Monty92]

Though, of course, none of their managers will still be there if they fail to win the league in ten years :-\

It's almost as it context is important

[Alberto Balsam Rodriguez]

Hang on, on every metric Wenger has a superior record in English football. Whether it's his initial impact in winning the league in his first full season (something neither of them has done), or currently being ahead of one of them in the table and on level points with the other (whom he also took his side further than in Europe) even at a time when his reputation has never been lower.

I can see why many would like us to take a punt on either of them (and have never said otherwise) but I don't see why it should be seen as a no-brainer that they are superior managers more capable of winning us the big trophies.


It isn't about winning trophies, it is about doing all of the right things on the pitch to effect the game. I'm no expert but, looking at the quality of our players, I find it strange that we are so easy to play against and when we get to teams like Bayern, we play with such fear. It is as if the players don't believe.

Talk of winning trophies is irrelevant unless we address the basics. Whether that is with or without Wenger is a very hard call to make.

[Pat Vegas]

Fans weren't bored a few months ago when we were winning more games. And if we win the next one, they won't be bored either. You think the fans will be singing Wenger Out if we win the next two or three in a row?

People have already lost interest Monty. What do we have left possible FA cup which you previously rubbished and the old exciting 4th place race. People are bored of that. And on top of that we haven't even been playing decent football.

CL is dead, our title challenge ended 2 weeks ago.

[Monty92]

People have already lost interest Monty. What do we have left possible FA cup which you previously rubbished and the old exciting 4th place race. People are bored of that. And on top of that we haven't even been playing decent football.

CL is dead, our title challenge ended 2 weeks ago.

No, I can assure you that if we won our next 10 in a row the fans would be buzzing. Especially if one of them was a 4-0 against Bayern.

[redgunamo]

It's almost as it context is important

Hugely important, in fact; the most successful football clubs regularly change managers.

[Pat Vegas]

No, I can assure you that if we won our next 10 in a row the fans would be buzzing. Especially if one of them was a 4-0 against Bayern.

and that's likely to happen? So then it just becomes lets judge him in May again. :shrug:

We will probably go on some sort of winning streak. we normally do once the pressure is off.

[redgunamo]

No, I can assure you that if we won our next 10 in a row the fans would be buzzing. Especially if one of them was a 4-0 against Bayern.

Right, but that buzz would be killed by failure to win a trophy, despite the decent run of form.

[Pat Vegas]

Right, but that buzz would be killed by failure to win a trophy, despite the decent run of form.

And people already are fed up. The watford game was half empty and that was before we lost and played Chelsea.

[Peter]

Yes it's definitely odd when all of these clubs are at a very similar level.

I am not commenting on whether they need clear outs. Clearly they will make changes to their squads over the summer as the managers start to move on those they don't fancy. Its harder to predict what will happen with them. For example, I don't know whether Spurs have 4 or 5 well paid players who aren't performing.

I know we do and I know that Wenger will not shove them out the door this summer. We know this because he has been in post for 20 years and we know how he works.

Note I am saying the clear out is needed if he stays. If he goes, a new manager may get something out of them. No clear out needed and therefore consistent with the new manager/no clear out principle.

[Luis Anaconda]

I don't know. Currently only Chelsea look significantly better than us. I think it's odd that no-one is talking about Spurs, Liverpool Man Utd or Man City needing a major clear out.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/01/16/pep-guardiola-plots-major-manchester-city-clear-out-disastrous/
https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/2122673/jose-mourinho-30million-diego-godin-bid/
Five seconds searching on the internet - of course no one is talking about these clubs having a clear-out

Liverpool jettisoned 13 players last summer while Spurs have had culled a huge amount of players in recent seasons (there are something like 20 ex-Spurs players playing for other Premiership clubs), so calls for a clearout are less likely on that basis alone. Although the likes of Lucas, Moreno, Lovren, Sahko and a couple of others seem to have little future under Klopp so they might have a bit of a sale in the summer

[Monty92]

Hugely important, in fact; the most successful football clubs regularly change managers.

What about the least successful and the averagely successful? Do they change managers with less frequency?

[SWv2]

I've absolutely no idea. If he finished in the top four again I'd personally be happy for him to continue

I am totally lost and confused as to why you appear to place virtue or gauge success and hope on a top four finish. To be honest at this point I can only guess it is sheer stubbornness given your previous stoic defence of the manager – that and your bizarre desire to come back on here in a few weeks and crow when we roll over 1-2 shít teams.

Surely what you want to see in the club is progress and equally so surely you can admit (if only in private) that it is clearly absent from the footballing side of the club. Financial, infrastructure no argument. Football, little or none.

Same issues, same problems, same failings almost every single season.

The same faith placed in players who for whatever reason are just not fit for purpose – decent footballers one and all, top level footballers some – but combined as a team they are weak. The players are not the constant over those years. The manager is, the manager and his staff.

4th place, great, CL qualification again, what a success that is. 6 group matches and out. I know lots of clubs would give their rights arms for that before you say it.

Some want more. Note we don’t demand it or think we are entitled to it or any other nonsense the apologists roll out each time. We simply want to try and go up a level as such, I am not sure Wenger can do that anymore. I certainly would not want to entrust another 3 years in him.

He has in general done a brilliant job in the 20 years he has been here but appears lost at times now.

[Pat Vegas]

Right, but that buzz would be killed by failure to win a trophy, despite the decent run of form.

:Nod: for example last season finishing 2nd whilst an improvement on previous years it was very underwhelming due to who won the league.

If you finish 2nd and in a hard thought title race so be it. but this wasn't the case.

[Monty92]

Right, but that buzz would be killed by failure to win a trophy, despite the decent run of form.

Trophies are nice, but our fans will generally put up without them if their team wins enough games.

We've put up with Wenger for years despite not winning any big trophies. It's only now we're not winning enough games that the fans are losing patience.

[Pat Vegas]

I am totally lost and confused as to why you appear to place virtue or gauge success and hope on a top four finish. To be honest at this point I can only guess it is sheer stubbornness given your previous stoic defence of the manager – that and your bizarre desire to come back on here in a few weeks and crow when we roll over 1-2 **** teams.

Surely what you want to see in the club is progress and equally so surely you can admit (if only in private) that it is clearly absent from the footballing side of the club. Financial, infrastructure no argument. Football, little or none.

Same issues, same problems, same failings almost every single season.

The same faith placed in players who for whatever reason are just not fit for purpose – decent footballers one and all, top level footballers some – but combined as a team they are weak. The players are not the constant over those years. The manager is, the manager and his staff.

4th place, great, CL qualification again, what a success that is. 6 group matches and out. I know lots of clubs would give their rights arms for that before you say it.

Some want more. Note we don’t demand it or think we are entitled to it or any other nonsense the apologists roll out each time. We simply want to try and go up a level as such, I am not sure Wenger cannot do that anymore. I certainly would not want to entrust another 3 years in him.

He has in general done a brilliant job in the 20 years he has been here but appears lost at times now.

Exactly. If anything Wenger has underachieved. They will always say he couldn't compete with money, but there have been opportunities in the last 10 years where we could have taken them if we had a different mentality, We had the skill.
We could have had a couple of league titles since we moved to the Emirates imo.

We assume the board decided that top4 finish is fine for the business model and they are happy.
But maybe this isn't the case and it's just become that way due to our unusual manager situation. What other club can a manager go to with very little pressure on him from the board? it's the most unique job in football.

[Luis Anaconda]

Trophies are nice, but fans will generally put up without them if their team wins enough games.

Look at us. We've put up with Wenger for years despite not winning any big trophies. It's only now we're not winning enough games that the fans are losing patience.

um - before last night, this season's team had the highest win percentage of any Arsenal team in history bar the 1930-31 side. It is more complicated than that

[IUFG]

What other club can a manager go to with very little pressure on him from the board? it's the most unique job in football.

Thank **** Stan the Syrup wasn't about during Bruce Rioch's reign

[Monty92]

um - before last night, this season's team had the highest win percentage of any Arsenal team in history bar the 1930-31 side. It is more complicated than that

Eh? We've won more games this season than any other season in our history since 1931?

[Pat Vegas]

Trophies are nice, but our fans will generally put up without them if their team wins enough games.

We've put up with Wenger for years despite not winning any big trophies. It's only now we're not winning enough games that the fans are losing patience.

It's not losing it's how we lose.

Why haven't Sanchez or Ozil committed to staying? Maybe they will the obvious answer will be they are waiting to see what happens with Wenger. but I don't buy it.

[SWv2]

Five seconds searching on the internet - of course no one is talking about these clubs having a clear-out



It is a fúcking staggering attempt at a defence really.

:hehe:


Nobody ever suggests Guardiola has a massive job on at City. No. Only Clichy, Sagna, Otamendi, Kolarov and he has already shipped out Mangala.

No.

[redgunamo]

What about the least successful and the averagely successful? Do they change managers with less frequency?

About the same, I'd say. I actually added that bit afterwards as more relevant to our own standing.

Point is, football clubs often change their managers.

[Luis Anaconda]

Eh? We've won more games this season than any other season in our history since 1931?

Key word is percentage - we had won 64% of our games this season pre-last night. Actually, apparently 2001-2002 was higher as well, but regardless it isn't about the lack of winning, it is the manner of the way we are losing that people are justifiably disconcerted with
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/good-news-arsene-arsenals-201617-9821578

[Monty92]

About the same, I'd say. I actually added that bit afterwards as more relevant to our own standing.

Point is, football clubs often change their managers.

Right. With very, very mixed success. Thanks for that - enlightening.

[Monty92]

Key word is percentage - we had won 64% of our games this season pre-last night. Actually, apparently 2001-2002 was higher as well, but regardless it isn't about the lack of winning, it is the manner of the way we are losing that people are justifiably disconcerted with
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/good-news-arsene-arsenals-201617-9821578

Oh sure, it's also when you lose them that matters too. If you lose 5 then win 5, things are going well. Yet if you win 5 then lose 5, things are going terribly, despite it equally the same number of points.

[redgunamo]

Right. With very, very mixed success. Thanks for that - enlightening.

It's just what football clubs *do*, regardless of success.

The game isn't about success (money, trophies); it's about football, being a football club. Which, of course, means doing what football clubs *do* :shrug:

[Monty92]

It's just what football clubs *do*, regardless of success.

The game isn't about success (money, trophies); it's about football, being a football club. Which, of course, means doing what football clubs *do* :shrug:

The reason clubs change their managers so often is because they're all looking for an Arsene Wenger.

[Pat Vegas]

The reason clubs change their managers so often is because they're all looking for an Arsene Wenger.

How romantic.
How long would he have lasted at Madrid or Barcelona? The Arsene/Arsenal situation is a unique one of a kind deal.

[redgunamo]

The reason clubs change their managers so often is because they're all looking for an Arsene Wenger.

Or because they want to win the European Cup.

[Luis Anaconda]

The reason clubs change their managers so often is because they're all looking for an Arsene Wenger.

:hehe: I'll give you credit - you don't believe it being half-arsed when you're wrong, you really go the full arse of all arses

[World's End Stella]

No, I can assure you that if we won our next 10 in a row the fans would be buzzing. Especially if one of them was a 4-0 against Bayern.

That's actually a really great point that I hadn't considered. If we were to win 10 in a row and thump Bayern we would be happy, wouldn't we? And what if we won all the other games 7-0? Then we'd be even happier. And imagine if we won the rest of our games after that, 9-0? And what if we then signed Messi and a 25 year old Baresi this summer and went on to win every game next year by at least 4 goals and did the quintuple? We'd be absolutely thrilled, everyone would be happy and no one would be talking about Wenger leaving. Why haven't I thought of this before, Monty?

You've convinced me - Wenger In!

[Pat Vegas]

That's actually a really great point that I hadn't considered. If we were to win 10 in a row and thump Bayern we would be happy, wouldn't we? And what if we won all the other games 7-0? Then we'd be even happier. And imagine if we won the rest of our games after that, 9-0? And what if we then signed Messi and a 25 year old Baresi this summer and went on to win every game next year by at least 4 goals and did the quintuple? We'd be absolutely thrilled, everyone would be happy and no one would be talking about Wenger leaving. Why haven't I thought of this before, Monty?

You've convinced me - Wenger In!

:clap: :clap: