Lordy. but there's some whining going on about yesterday's Brexit vote.

[Burney]

I must say that, while I have huge sympathy for any uncertainty foreign nationals feel at the moment (although we're obviously not going to kick them out, but even the merest hint of a possibility can't be much fun), there really wasn't a choice other than to vote that way.

Pretty much anyone else moaning can fûck right off, though.

[Luis Anaconda]

I must say that, while I have huge sympathy for any uncertainty foreign nationals feel at the moment (although we're obviously not going to kick them out, but even the merest hint of a possibility can't be much fun), there really wasn't a choice other than to vote that way.

Pretty much anyone else moaning can fûck right off, though.

Yes people really should just know their place and quietly accept everything forced upon them :rolleyes:

You must be quite unhappy though - Corbyn surely has shot his foot, knees, *******s and all off. Was looking on Twitter as that tweet came up. These days it takes a lot to shock but that really was a piece of such spectacular ineptitude he must really want to get out of the job

[World's End Stella]

Yes people really should just know their place and quietly accept everything forced upon them :rolleyes:


Beat me to that one. Amazing the way Burney will rail against things the government has done that he disagrees with but when people protest a decision they dislike they should just 'f*ck right off' and accept it.

[eastgermanautos]

I must say that, while I have huge sympathy for any uncertainty foreign nationals feel at the moment (although we're obviously not going to kick them out, but even the merest hint of a possibility can't be much fun), there really wasn't a choice other than to vote that way.

Pretty much anyone else moaning can fûck right off, though.

I'm sure there were people like you in Czechoslovakia, 1937. Ancient Rome, 475 AD. Just chillin while your country goes to hell. And you never pay a price. The Visigoths come strolling in and you are waving the Visigothic flag. Quislings, enemies of the national will, the blood and the soil.

;-)

Just messing with you man, what the hell do I care.

[Pokster]

I must say that, while I have huge sympathy for any uncertainty foreign nationals feel at the moment (although we're obviously not going to kick them out, but even the merest hint of a possibility can't be much fun), there really wasn't a choice other than to vote that way.

Pretty much anyone else moaning can fûck right off, though.

Says the boards biggest moaner :-)

[Luis Anaconda]

I'm sure there were people like you in Czechoslovakia, 1937. Ancient Rome, 475 AD. Just chillin while your country goes to hell. And you never pay a price. The Visigoths come strolling in and you are waving the Visigothic flag. Quislings, enemies of the national will, the blood and the soil.

;-)

Just messing with you man, what the hell do I care.
The visigoths might be a welcome relief right now

[Burney]

Yes people really should just know their place and quietly accept everything forced upon them :rolleyes:

You must be quite unhappy though - Corbyn surely has shot his foot, knees, *******s and all off. Was looking on Twitter as that tweet came up. These days it takes a lot to shock but that really was a piece of such spectacular ineptitude he must really want to get out of the jon

Surely at some point a degree of dignified acceptance of the result is required, though? You don't have to like it, but it is happening, you're not changing it and perhaps it might be time to get on with things rather than sitting around calling everyone else racist Little Englanders and telling us all how ashamed you are to be British because you didn't get your way, which is just a bit fûcking tiresome and childish, but seems to be the default position today (not talking about you, btw).

As to Corbyn, he's an unbelievable fûck-up machine, isn't he? Apart from that tweet, I also love his appalling timing as he managed to have his most effective and damaging PMQs on the same day that it was bound to end up being ignored on the news agenda. :hehe:
I think there is a serious worry for the Tories that he might actually go, but if he didn't go after the referendum, why would he go now?

[Burney]

I'm sure there were people like you in Czechoslovakia, 1937. Ancient Rome, 475 AD. Just chillin while your country goes to hell. And you never pay a price. The Visigoths come strolling in and you are waving the Visigothic flag. Quislings, enemies of the national will, the blood and the soil.

;-)

Just messing with you man, what the hell do I care.

You clearly understand the square root of fûck all about the issue, though. I'm mystified as to why you keep banging on about it. :shrug:

[Burney]

Beat me to that one. Amazing the way Burney will rail against things the government has done that he disagrees with but when people protest a decision they dislike they should just 'f*ck right off' and accept it.

Oh, the protesting didn't bother me in the least (although here's a hint: next time try protesting before the referendum rather than afterwards :hehe: ).
No, my issue is with people who lose a battle comprehensively and then simply keep banging on about why they should have won it really and how it's not fair and everyone else is horrible except them. It's the childishness I dislike - the petulant refusal to accept the world as it is rather than as they want it to be. Adult argument about the way forward is fine, but simply pissing and bitching about reality and wallowing in hysterical pessimistic fantasy is just tiresome.

[Luis Anaconda]

Surely at some point a degree of dignified acceptance of the result is required, though? You don't have to like it, but it is happening, you're not changing it and perhaps it might be time to get on with things rather than sitting around calling everyone else racist Little Englanders and telling us all how ashamed you are to be British because you didn't get your way, which is just a bit fûcking tiresome and childish, but seems to be the default position today (not talking about you, btw).

As to Corbyn, he's an unbelievable fûck-up machine, isn't he? Apart from that tweet, I also love his appalling timing as he managed to have his most effective and damaging PMQs on the same day that it was bound to end up being ignored on the news agenda. :hehe:
I think there is a serious worry for the Tories that he might actually go, but if he didn't go after the referendum, why would he go now?

I do think there is a distinction between people who have valid points to make (still) and moaning, but yes, the overall tone of the latter has undoubtedly been harmful when it gives your opponents an easy target to attack and clouds the issues - and while it annoys me intensely, the Remoaners tag was a clever piece of jargon.

Corbyn is quite amazing - Labour must realise it is damage limitation time. The next election is a formality so actually keeping him is their best bet then a new leader can come in relatively untarnished

[Billy Goat Sverige]

Oh, the protesting didn't bother me in the least (although here's a hint: next time try protesting before the referendum rather than afterwards :hehe: ).
No, my issue is with people who lose a battle comprehensively and then simply keep banging on about why they should have won it really and how it's not fair and everyone else is horrible except them. It's the childishness I dislike - the petulant refusal to accept the world as it is rather than as they want it to be. Adult argument about the way forward is fine, but simply pissing and bitching about reality and wallowing in hysterical pessimistic fantasy is just tiresome.

The ones that i don't understand are those that want to see the negotiations fail miserably and the UK end up with a terrible deal. Like the kid who takes his ball home when he loses.

[Burney]

I do think there is a distinction between people who have valid points to make (still) and moaning, but yes, the overall tone of the latter has undoubtedly been harmful when it gives your opponents an easy target to attack and clouds the issues - and while it annoys me intensely, the Remoaners tag was a clever piece of jargon.

Corbyn is quite amazing - Labour must realise it is damage limitation time. The next election is a formality so actually keeping him is their best bet then a new leader can come in relatively untarnished

I agree. Since the referendum, a lot of people on the Remain side has badly damaged its image with spite, insults, snobbery and sheer bloody arrogance. It's made it very hard to hear the sensible arguments being put forward over the clamour of 'RACISTS!', insults about the elderly, naked contempt for the working class and absurd talk about 'far right Tory government'. All that's achieved is to harden the resolve of Leavers to stick two fingers up.

Thon Clive Lewis fella is positioning himself quite nicely. An 'honourable' rebellion and resignation means he won't be seen as a traitor by the left, but away from the front bench he can generate support on the right and centre of the party. Timing, though, will be everything. I don't think another leadership challenge is feasible and the left will do anything to cling to power even if it means reanimating Corbyn's corpse, so yes I think the 2020 election is the only hope.

[eastgermanautos]

You clearly understand the square root of fûck all about the issue, though. I'm mystified as to why you keep banging on about it. :shrug:

Oh, I understand well enough. It's not hard to understand, even for me. Nations make bad decisions. The Venetian Empire back in the day had grown strong as a result of controlling Mediterranean sea-going commerce. Then they decided to to become embroiled in wars going on in Italy proper. They did not secure good results, were weakened, and meantime did not have enough capital to ensure their continued preeminence in the Mediterranean. Then those wily Portuguese found the trade route around Africa and there was Venice, fvcked.

You seem to have forgotten that England was not rising in the world pre-EU. The EU allowed London to become a center of banking. You abandon the EU because of some sh!tkickers out in the countryside not liking nonwhite people, and now you're not in a good position going forward.

Sad!

[Burney]

The ones that i don't understand are those that want to see the negotiations fail miserably and the UK end up with a terrible. Like the kid who takes his ball home when he loses.

Oh, yes. They're the really weird ones. People who tell you they voted Remain because they wanted the best for the UK and then in the next breath tell you they want to see the country fûcked just so they can be vindicated. :hehe:

Mind you, that group essentially includes the First Minister of Scotland, who is in the bizarre position of pretty explicitly wanting her country's economy to tank so she can win another Independence referendum. I'd have thought that was a conflict of interests, but there you go.

[Burney]

Oh, I understand well enough. It's not hard to understand, even for me. Nations make bad decisions. The Venetian Empire back in the day had grown strong as a result of controlling Mediterranean sea-going commerce. Then they decided to to become embroiled in wars going on in Italy proper. They did not secure good results, were weakened, and meantime did not have enough capital to ensure their continued preeminence in the Mediterranean. Then those wily Portuguese found the trade route around Africa and there was Venice, fvcked.

You seem to have forgotten that England was not rising in the world pre-EU. The EU allowed London to become a center of banking. You abandon the EU because of some sh!tkickers out in the countryside not liking nonwhite people, and now you're not in a good position going forward.

Sad!

:hehe: London was a - indeed the - centre of banking long before the EU and will continue to be long after, so don't worry your pretty little head about that. Your suggestion that without the EU we couldn't have been rather gives the lie to any suggestion that you have any historical understanding whatsoever, though.

You seem to have picked up the utterly bullshît received idea that we left the EU because racism. I'm guessing maybe you read one -maybe two - op-eds in The Guardian or the Washington Post to get that impression. If that is the level of your understanding, I don't have the time or the inclination to disabuse you of your idiotic notion. Try actually finding something out about the EU, how it works and why levels of support for it are currently as low as they are among its citizens and then come back to me.

[Luis Anaconda]

The ones that i don't understand are those that want to see the negotiations fail miserably and the UK end up with a terrible. Like the kid who takes his ball home when he loses.

or people who want Arsenal to lose so Arsene will go

[eastgermanautos]

or people who want Arsenal to lose so Arsene will go

But I mean, clearly he needs to go. :shrug: We're agreed on that right?

[redgunamo]

Oh, I understand well enough. It's not hard to understand, even for me. Nations make bad decisions. The Venetian Empire back in the day had grown strong as a result of controlling Mediterranean sea-going commerce. Then they decided to to become embroiled in wars going on in Italy proper. They did not secure good results, were weakened, and meantime did not have enough capital to ensure their continued preeminence in the Mediterranean. Then those wily Portuguese found the trade route around Africa and there was Venice, fvcked.

You seem to have forgotten that England was not rising in the world pre-EU. The EU allowed London to become a center of banking. You abandon the EU because of some sh!tkickers out in the countryside not liking nonwhite people, and now you're not in a good position going forward.

Sad!

Hoy! IAHYK, e.

[Billy Goat Sverige]

or people who want Arsenal to lose so Arsene will go

Jack Clifford starting :-) I Hope Haskell can be ready for the next game so Clifford can play at 6. Happy to see Nowell back too.

[Luis Anaconda]

I agree. Since the referendum, a lot of people on the Remain side has badly damaged its image with spite, insults, snobbery and sheer bloody arrogance. It's made it very hard to hear the sensible arguments being put forward over the clamour of 'RACISTS!', insults about the elderly, naked contempt for the working class and absurd talk about 'far right Tory government'. All that's achieved is to harden the resolve of Leavers to stick two fingers up.

Thon Clive Lewis fella is positioning himself quite nicely. An 'honourable' rebellion and resignation means he won't be seen as a traitor by the left, but away from the front bench he can generate support on the right and centre of the party. Timing, though, will be everything. I don't think another leadership challenge is feasible and the left will do anything to cling to power even if it means reanimating Corbyn's corpse, so yes I think the 2020 election is the only hope.
I like the cut of his jib - put that utter **** Milne in his place - and acted here, dare I say it, like a leader

[eastgermanautos]

:hehe: London was a - indeed the - centre of banking long before the EU and will continue to be long after, so don't worry your pretty little head about that. Your suggestion that without the EU we couldn't have been rather gives the lie to any suggestion that you have any historical understanding whatsoever, though.

You seem to have picked up the utterly bullshît received idea that we left the EU because racism. I'm guessing maybe you read one -maybe two - op-eds in The Guardian or the Washington Post to get that impression. If that is the level of your understanding, I don't have the time or the inclination to disabuse you of your idiotic notion. Try actually finding something out about the EU, how it works and why levels of support for it are currently as low as they are among its citizens and then come back to me.

There's a parallel conversation about Trump. People point to the rust belt -- Michigan, failing factories, etc. And I agree that Obama could be annoyingly effete. He couldn't hang with some dudes in Detroit or Ohio. But Trump *was elected because people had allowed themselves to believe a lot of b*ll**** about Obama and "liberals." The fact of Obama being a colored fella meant that racism played a huge role. Well, look, you don't really have nonwhite politicians, at least not from what I've seen. So that's different. On the other hand, the threat of the alien is much more proximate. They're pretty damn close to you, all those Middle Easterners. It's just a couple pieces of the puzzle but I don't doubt seriously that racism played a massive part.

You have some disagreements with the EU, but none so great, I'm sure, that you had to blow the whole thing up. You just let it happen, slipsliding away...

Don't get me wrong, I like England. It's my background, come to that. But I prefer the England of Donne to what you have now. :-)

[redgunamo]

or people who want Arsenal to lose so Arsene will go

Yes, Nicosia used to say that. Apparently it would teach us all a lesson.

[eastgermanautos]

Hoy! IAHYK, e.

What's IAHYK mean again, red? Forgive my ignorance. :-)

[Luis Anaconda]

Jack Clifford starting :-) I Hope Haskell can be ready for the next game so Clifford can play at 6. Happy to see Nowell back too.

Happy with both of those. Inexperienced back row, but should be a handful

[redgunamo]

There's a parallel conversation about Trump. People point to the rust belt -- Michigan, failing factories, etc. And I agree that Obama could be annoyingly effete. He couldn't hang with some dudes in Detroit or Ohio. But Trump *was elected because people had allowed themselves to believe a lot of b*ll**** about Obama and "liberals." The fact of Obama being a colored fella meant that racism played a huge role. Well, look, you don't really have nonwhite politicians, at least not from what I've seen. So that's different. On the other hand, the threat of the alien is much more proximate. They're pretty damn close to you, all those Middle Easterners. It's just a couple pieces of the puzzle but I don't doubt seriously that racism played a massive part.

You have some disagreements with the EU, but none so great, I'm sure, that you had to blow the whole thing up. You just let it happen, slipsliding away...

Don't get me wrong, I like England. It's my background, come to that. But I prefer the England of Donne to what you have now. :-)

Nonsense, I'm afraid. President Obama is Ivy League, same as President Bush is. This idea you've had Flavor Flav in charge for the last eight years is pure fantasy.

[eastgermanautos]

Nonsense, I'm afraid. President Obama is Ivy League, same as President Bush is. This idea you've had Flavor Flav in charge for the last eight years is pure fantasy.

To the average American white person he is totally Flava Fav. Or, as they would say, he's "uppity." It's more that they see him as a chosen tool of a cynical, jobstealing liberal elite. The said elite selected him, like the Antichrist, to run amok. End of Days, my friend, end of days.

[Burney]

There's a parallel conversation about Trump. People point to the rust belt -- Michigan, failing factories, etc. And I agree that Obama could be annoyingly effete. He couldn't hang with some dudes in Detroit or Ohio. But Trump *was elected because people had allowed themselves to believe a lot of b*ll**** about Obama and "liberals." The fact of Obama being a colored fella meant that racism played a huge role. Well, look, you don't really have nonwhite politicians, at least not from what I've seen. So that's different. On the other hand, the threat of the alien is much more proximate. They're pretty damn close to you, all those Middle Easterners. It's just a couple pieces of the puzzle but I don't doubt seriously that racism played a massive part.

You have some disagreements with the EU, but none so great, I'm sure, that you had to blow the whole thing up. You just let it happen, slipsliding away...

Don't get me wrong, I like England. It's my background, come to that. But I prefer the England of Donne to what you have now. :-)

Yes, we don't have non-white politicians. Apart from the Mayor of London, various cabinet and shadow cabinet ministers :rolleyes:

The main issue was actually democracy and always has been - long before the various migration crises. The EU is a profoundly anti-democratic organisation that rules by technocratic diktat and whose explicit (it's actually written on the wall in Strasbourg) intention is the dismantling of the nation state in favour of a European superstate ruled from Brussels. Its parliament is an unrepresentative rubber-stamping body rendered impotent by its sheer diversity, which means it can never provide meaningful opposition to the unelected, unaccountable Commission, which is the only body that can make law. Nobody who calls themselves a democrat can possibly defend that situation and no American would dream of allowing themselves to be governed in that way, so please spare me the finger wagging.
'So why leave? Why not try and reform it?', I hear you ask. That is literally what we have been trying to do for 40-odd years. No dice. The goal of 'ever-closer union' is paramount and the Brussels juggernaut keeps on rolling. When Cameron went to the EU before the referendum trying to get some concessions that might help him win it, he got nothing because the EU is simply too inflexible even when it meant the possibility of losing a key member state and its second biggest net contributor. As a result, the referendum was lost - because the EU isn't going to change.
Are there concerns about immigration? Of course. And they're pretty justified. If you think mass immigration from the Middle East is a good plan, look at what's happening in Germany and Sweden, who have let huge numbers in. Does looking at that and saying 'no thanks' make one a racist? Equally, there's the migration from within the EU, which allowed a massive influx of people from Eastern Europe into the country a few years back. That has been positive for the likes of me, who can now get cheap plumbers, cleaners and decorators, but not so much for people lower down the scale who feel their chances of employment or access to public services are being negatively affected by this influx. Does resenting that make them racist?
Be very careful with the accusation of racism. Once you apply it to any issue that might even tangentially relate to race, it starts to lose its meaning.

[Pat Vegas]

Yes, Nicosia used to say that. Apparently it would teach us all a lesson.

I know what you are but what am I my friend? :driving: :vsign:

[Burney]

I know what you are but what am I my friend? :driving: :vsign:

:hehe: That, or if you disagreed with him on something, he'd accuse you of :fishing:

[eastgermanautos]

Yes, we don't have non-white politicians. Apart from the Mayor of London, various cabinet and shadow cabinet ministers :rolleyes:

The main issue was actually democracy and always has been - long before the various migration crises. The EU is a profoundly anti-democratic organisation that rules by technocratic diktat and whose explicit (it's actually written on the wall in Strasbourg) intention is the dismantling of the nation state in favour of a European superstate ruled from Brussels. Its parliament is an unrepresentative rubber-stamping body rendered impotent by its sheer diversity, which means it can never provide meaningful opposition to the unelected, unaccountable Commission, which is the only body that can make law. Nobody who calls themselves a democrat can possibly defend that situation and no American would dream of allowing themselves to be governed in that way, so please spare me the finger wagging.
'So why leave? Why not try and reform it?', I hear you ask. That is literally what we have been trying to do for 40-odd years. No dice. The goal of 'ever-closer union' is paramount and the Brussels juggernaut keeps on rolling. When Cameron went to the EU before the referendum trying to get some concessions that might help him win it, he got nothing because the EU is simply too inflexible even when it meant the possibility of losing a key member state and its second biggest net contributor. As a result, the referendum was lost - because the EU isn't going to change.
Are there concerns about immigration? Of course. And they're pretty justified. If you think mass immigration from the Middle East is a good plan, look at what's happening in Germany and Sweden, who have let huge numbers in. Does looking at that and saying 'no thanks' make one a racist? Equally, there's the migration from within the EU, which allowed a massive influx of people from Eastern Europe into the country a few years back. That has been positive for the likes of me, who can now get cheap plumbers, cleaners and decorators, but not so much for people lower down the scale who feel their chances of employment or access to public services are being negatively affected by this influx. Does resenting that make them racist?
Be very careful with the accusation of racism. Once you apply it to any issue that might even tangentially relate to race, it starts to lose its meaning.

I concede your point about all those Eastern Europeans. The Poles and god knows who else. But I don't think Germany is making a mistake absorbing significant numbers of immigrants. Other countries, particularly France and Italy, maybe. But Germany has been looking for an opportunity to behave magnanimously for the past 70 years, and at last they have it. Having the moral high ground is very important to a country. You lose a *lot if you can't maintain it. America will be fine, probably, unless we start WW3. We gained a lot of points with the saintly Obama. But Germany *really needs to show its good side. Turn the page, floss a little bit, kick some ass. I felt it when I was in Berlin a few days ago. And lo, the Germans want to give my film a bunch of money. It's favorable for the arts, even if my film hardly qualifies as that. :hehe:

All right, I'm off to bed. Have to be up in an hour and a half. :-(

[redgunamo]

I concede your point about all those Eastern Europeans. The Poles and god knows who else. But I don't think Germany is making a mistake absorbing significant numbers of immigrants. Other countries, particularly France and Italy, maybe. But Germany has been looking for an opportunity to behave magnanimously for the past 70 years, and at last they have it. Having the moral high ground is very important to a country. You lose a *lot if you can't maintain it. America will be fine, probably, unless we start WW3. We gained a lot of points with the saintly Obama. But Germany *really needs to show its good side. Turn the page, floss a little bit, kick some ass. I felt it when I was in Berlin a few days ago. And lo, the Germans want to give my film a bunch of money. It's favorable for the arts, even if my film hardly qualifies as that. :hehe:

All right, I'm off to bed. Have to be up in an hour and a half. :-(

Nothing magnanimous about it; their birth rate has fallen off a cliff lately, same as Italy, France and the rest of the "wealthy" west. It's all homos and Milchbubis and women's lib nowadays. They *need* people.

Sleep well ;-)

[Ash]

You abandon the EU because of some sh!tkickers out in the countryside not liking nonwhite people, and now you're not in a good position going forward.


You're the ignorant sh!tkicker, you odious prick. Undemocratic supra-nationalism is not the default position of governance, opposed by racists. In fact it has more in common with empires than self-determination, which was considered the desirable post-imperialist arrangement and advocated by your own president after WW1.

The most dangerous nationalists on the planet are currently the US 'Exceptionalists' who regard themselves as representing the 'one indespensible nation' who has the right to smash up and destroy any country it pleases.

[71 Guns - channeling the spirit of Mr Hat]

You're the ignorant sh!tkicker, you odious prick. Undemocratic supra-nationalism is not the default position of governance, opposed by racists. In fact it has more in common with empires than self-determination, which was considered the desirable post-imperialist arrangement and advocated by your own president after WW1.

The most dangerous nationalists on the planet are currently the US 'Exceptionalists' who regard themselves as representing the 'one indespensible nation' who has the right to smash up and destroy any country it pleases.

Have a pop while he's in sleepy-byes eh :hehe:

[Ash]

Have a pop while he's in sleepy-byes eh :hehe:

I hadn't read the rest of the thread. :hehe: I wouldn't have bothered if I knew he wasn't around. I'll bump it for him when he comes back later.

[71 Guns - channeling the spirit of Mr Hat]

I hadn't read the rest of the thread. :hehe: I wouldn't have bothered if I knew he wasn't around. I'll bump it for him when he comes back later.

I look forward to it :fight:

[eastgermanautos]

I look forward to it :fight:

I'm awake now ya basterds.

:-D