So anyone visit a Mosque yesterday?

[Monty92]

I was washing my hair, sadly.

I reckon if you asked a scientist to create a Useful idiot in a Laboratory, he'd come up with the kind of person who would attend such an event.

[Burney]

I was washing my hair, sadly.

I reckon if you asked a scientist to create a Useful idiot in a Laboratory, he'd come up with the kind of person who would attend such an event.

No. Were we supposed to?

To be honest, the chances of me leaving the house on a Sunday to go somewhere I can't get a drink is pretty much zero.

[Sir C]

I was washing my hair, sadly.

I reckon if you asked a scientist to create a Useful idiot in a Laboratory, he'd come up with the kind of person who would attend such an event.

Nah, you're alright. I mean, I've got a wife, who's a woman, and gay friends, who are gay, and lots of people I know are christians and Sikhs and Buddhists, so I sort of hesitate to get involved with a bunch of people who would like to see them oppressed at best or possibly chucked off a tall building.

If I want to hang out with a bunch of nonthinking savages I'd go to The Emirates.

[Monty92]

No. Were we supposed to?

To be honest, the chances of me leaving the house on a Sunday to go somewhere I can't get a drink is pretty much zero.

Mosques around the country held Open Days. The Guardian's coverage was predictable, encouraging people to see the problems faced by Islam through the lens of their own western privilege and intolerances towards minorities.

I also think this kind of event gives Islamist sympathisers the perfect opportunity to use progressive liberal westerners as pawns in their power-game and as human shields to conceal their regressive world view while they point the finger at unreconstructed racist, bigoted whitey. It allows them to say: “See, look at all these open-minded white people who are willing to confront their own inherent racism and not just brand us all as terrorists. They're much better than all those right wing fascist sympathisers who voted for Brexit and Trump, and spend their days posting Islamopobic tweets. See, we don’t hate Western values, we just hate Islamophobes."

[World's End Stella]

Mosques around the country held Open Days. The Guardian's coverage was predictable, encouraging people to see the problems faced by Islam through the lens of their own western privilege and intolerances towards minorities.

I also think this kind of event gives Islamist sympathisers the perfect opportunity to use progressive liberal westerners as pawns in their power-game and as human shields to conceal their regressive world view while they point the finger at unreconstructed racist, bigoted whitey. It allows them to say: “See, look at all these open-minded white people who are willing to confront their own inherent racism and not just brand us all as terrorists. They're much better than all those right wing fascist sympathisers who voted for Brexit and Trump, and spend their days posting Islamopobic tweets. See, we don’t hate Western values, we just hate Islamophobes."

It strikes me as an excellent idea. Do you honestly believe we're going to solve the problem of Islamic Fundamentalism without improving the communication with their community?

[SWv2]

I only know of one Mosque in Dublin and if we had all piled up there after mass it would have been chaos.

All in all a bad plan from the off.

[Monty92]

It strikes me as an excellent idea. Do you honestly believe we're going to solve the problem of Islamic Fundamentalism without improving the communication with their community?

If it was part of a broader wide-reaching approach to move Islam towards reform, then I would be absolutely in favour. And I am sure the organisers themselves had only good intentions.

But I consider this kind of event part of an approach characterised by obfuscation and distraction and that encourages us to view Islam through the lens of our own racism, rather than speaking honestly about the problems inherent to the religion and that makes it so resistant to reform.

It is a token gesture that gives progressive liberals a warm fuzzy virtuous feeling but that ultimately glosses over the actual, grave problem at hand.

[Burney]

It strikes me as an excellent idea. Do you honestly believe we're going to solve the problem of Islamic Fundamentalism without improving the communication with their community?

But the problem isn't Islamic fundamentalism. The problem is Islam, its believers and what they actually believe - about us, about the world, about their place in the world and how things ought to be.
Me visiting a mosque isn't going to change the fact that Islam is fundamentally (ha!) incompatible with modern, liberal western society.

[Ash]

I was washing my hair, sadly.

I reckon if you asked a scientist to create a Useful idiot in a Laboratory, he'd come up with the kind of person who would attend such an event.

Walked past the one at Whitechapel. Had a look at it from the outside, but didn't see any Open Day signs inviting me in. Shame, I'd like to see what it looks like inside.

[Burney]

Walked past the one at Whitechapel. Had a look at it from the outside, but didn't see any Open Day signs inviting me in. Shame, I'd like to see what it looks like inside.

I went to one when I was at school and doing comparative religion. It looked like nothing much. Since representative art is banned by Islam, the decor was never going to be up to much.

[Ash]

I went to one when I was at school and doing comparative religion. It looked like nothing much. Since representative art is banned by Islam, the decor was never going to be up to much.

Needless to say I had the last laugh. Christchurch Spitalfields was open and I went in there. It really is marvellous - a higher roof than Exeter Cathedral, or something. I nearly converted to Christianity on the spot.

[Monty92]

Walked past the one at Whitechapel. Had a look at it from the outside, but didn't see any Open Day signs inviting me in. Shame, I'd like to see what it looks like inside.

Was it on Fieldgate Street? Three's one there that's literally next door to a Synagogue, Jeff. And we thought it was tense having that lot six miles up the road :yikes:

[Burney]

Needless to say I had the last laugh. Christchurch Spitalfields was open and I went in there. It really is marvellous - a higher roof than Exeter Cathedral, or something. I nearly converted to Christianity on the spot.

Nice. Then a nice mooch around Spitalfields market, I assume?

[World's End Stella]

If it was part of a broader wide-reaching approach to move Islam towards reform, then I would be absolutely in favour. And I am sure the organisers themselves had only good intentions.

But I consider this kind of event part of an approach characterised by obfuscation and distraction and that encourages us to view Islam through the lens of our own racism, rather than speaking honestly about the problems inherent to the religion and that makes it so resistant to reform.

It is a token gesture that gives progressive liberals a warm fuzzy virtuous feeling but that ultimately glosses over the actual, grave problem at hand.

Surely improving communication with our Muslim communities is the first step towards some form of 'reform' of the attitudes that are prevalent within their communities that lead to conflict? Even if it is a token gesture, it still seems like a good first step and is certainly better than doing nothing.

And the I reject the idea that we need an Islamic reformation in order to address the current issues. There are rather a lot of Muslims who have no issue at all reconciling their religion with life in a secular democracy. We don't need a reformation, we just need to encourage those voices to become more prevalent. Improving communication is crucial to this, communication and understanding.

[Ash]

Was it on Fieldgate Street? Three's one there that's literally next door to a Synagogue, Jeff. And we thought it was tense having that lot six miles up the road :yikes:

Yes. A big, massive mosque nearly the size of the nearby London Hospital between Fieldgate Street and Whitechapel Rd, and a teeny little kike-cave next to it. Face it, bud. Fùck off to Hendon, East London is theirs.

[Ash]

Surely improving communication with our Muslim communities is the first step towards some form of 'reform' of the attitudes that are prevalent within their communities that lead to conflict? Even if it is a token gesture, it still seems like a good first step and is certainly better than doing nothing.

And the I reject the idea that we need an Islamic reformation in order to address the current issues. There are rather a lot of Muslims who have no issue at all reconciling their religion with life in a secular democracy. We don't need a reformation, we just need to encourage those voices to become more prevalent. Improving communication is crucial to this, communication and understanding.

It's come to something when WES is the voice of fluffy, happy-clappy 'reaching-out' on AWIMB. :hehe:

[Ash]

Nice. Then a nice mooch around Spitalfields market, I assume?

More like a march through it, tbh. We were doing St Dunstan in the East, Stepney Green to St James' Palace (actually started in Mile End). Two old buildings once surrounded by fields. Did stop briefly at an old map stall though and made a mental note to go back.

[Burney]

Surely improving communication with our Muslim communities is the first step towards some form of 'reform' of the attitudes that are prevalent within their communities that lead to conflict? Even if it is a token gesture, it still seems like a good first step and is certainly better than doing nothing.

And the I reject the idea that we need an Islamic reformation in order to address the current issues. There are rather a lot of Muslims who have no issue at all reconciling their religion with life in a secular democracy. We don't need a reformation, we just need to encourage those voices to become more prevalent. Improving communication is crucial to this, communication and understanding.

You're right in one respect only - that we don't need an Islamic reformation. In fact, we need an Islamic Enlightenment - i.e. the point at which they actually stop believing this shît and letting it dominate their everyday actions.

Take a look at the teachings and precepts of Islam. It is predicated not on co-existence but on ruthless dominance and spiritual and cultural hegemony. The idea that they even want to get along peacefully with us is arrant nonsense. They want us subjugated and preferably converted. Why? Because that is what their religion explicitly demands.

[World's End Stella]

But the problem isn't Islamic fundamentalism. The problem is Islam, its believers and what they actually believe - about us, about the world, about their place in the world and how things ought to be.
Me visiting a mosque isn't going to change the fact that Islam is fundamentally (ha!) incompatible with modern, liberal western society.

That's really blinkered, judgmental thinking there, Burney. There are many ways to solve this problem that don't involve an Islamic Reformation.

[Burney]

More like a march through it, tbh. We were doing St Dunstan in the East, Stepney Green to St James' Palace (actually started in Mile End). Two old buildings once surrounded by fields. Did stop briefly at an old map stall though and made a mental note to go back.


Oh, yes, I know the one. I lingered there for a while last time I was there. I'm always tempted by the street food whenever I'm there, but am ultimately put off by the fact that there's nowhere to sit and eating even the most delicious thing while standing around being jostled and worrying you're going to spill it all over yourself just isn't that much fun.

[Burney]

That's really blinkered, judgmental thinking there, Burney. There are many ways to solve this problem that don't involve an Islamic Reformation.

'Solve the problem'? :hehe: Muslims have been trying to subjugate the west since 711 because that's what they do. Having a nice chat about Allah over tea and biccies ain't changing that.
You're just another nice, well-meaning chap who thinks that by behaving nicely and being well-meaning, we can 'solve the problem' of a religion that explicitly demands spiritual, cultural, temporal and legal sway over whatever space it occupies and whose values are antithetical to our society.

[Burney]

Yes. A big, massive mosque nearly the size of the nearby London Hospital between Fieldgate Street and Whitechapel Rd, and a teeny little kike-cave next to it. Face it, bud. Fùck off to Hendon, East London is theirs.

Having a religion that rejects the idea of evangelism and frowns on converts does mean you're generally going to lose a battle of numbers, though, doesn't it?

[World's End Stella]

Take a look at the teachings and precepts of Islam. It is predicated not on co-existence but on ruthless dominance and spiritual and cultural hegemony. The idea that they even want to get along peacefully with us is arrant nonsense. They want us subjugated and preferably converted. Why? Because that is what their religion explicitly demands.

You think that all Muslims want this? Every last one of them? And what if, in fact, it was a very small minority that wanted this, would that be relevant to the discussion and any possible solution?

[IUFG]

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

"Sugar?"

[Monty92]

Surely improving communication with our Muslim communities is the first step towards some form of 'reform' of the attitudes that are prevalent within their communities that lead to conflict? Even if it is a token gesture, it still seems like a good first step and is certainly better than doing nothing.

And the I reject the idea that we need an Islamic reformation in order to address the current issues. There are rather a lot of Muslims who have no issue at all reconciling their religion with life in a secular democracy. We don't need a reformation, we just need to encourage those voices to become more prevalent. Improving communication is crucial to this, communication and understanding.

The problem is that Muslim communities will only accept communication when it is on their terms. Look at how Muslim communities responded to the ‘Prevent’ programme as the perfect example of this. They even set up their own anti-extremist policies because ours weren’t to their liking.

Any criticism or suggestion that any fault lies within the communities themselves sparks a campaign of demonization led by the usual roll-call of apologists and Islamist sympathisers. Even the best-intentioned Muslim reformers like Majid Nawaz, who do exactly as you say and encourage other moderates to speak out, are castigated as Uncle Toms.

I believe an event such as this helps to validate those with no interest in affecting the changes required to bring Islam in line with western values and allows them to play non-Muslims off against each other. They will point to those who attended as the enlightened, open-minded souls who are willing to confront their prejudices head on and then point at everyone else with the temerity to speak critically about Islam and say “Islamophobes”.

[World's End Stella]

'Solve the problem'? :hehe: Muslims have been trying to subjugate the west since 711 because that's what they do. Having a nice chat about Allah over tea and biccies ain't changing that.
You're just another nice, well-meaning chap who thinks that by behaving nicely and being well-meaning, we can 'solve the problem' of a religion that explicitly demands spiritual, cultural, temporal and legal sway over whatever space it occupies and whose values are antithetical to our society.

Really? I had no idea. Quite the eye opener that is. I guess I missed the ongoing threat to the west from Islamic terrorism that was so prevalent throughout the 20th century. There was me thinking that hardly anyone knew or cared about it pre 9/11.

Amazing what you learn on AWIMB.

[Monty92]

You think that all Muslims want this? Every last one of them? And what if, in fact, it was a very small minority that wanted this, would that be relevant to the discussion and any possible solution?

A "very small minority"? Have you seen the polling numbers on British Muslim attitudes to free speech, gay rights, women's rights, etc. But we are also presently welcoming millions onto the continent from societies in which gays are executed and women stoned to death for being raped and whose birth rates are many times those of European indigenous populations. Where is that going to take us?

[Sir C]

Really? I had no idea. Quite the eye opener that is. I guess I missed the ongoing threat to the west from Islamic terrorism that was so prevalent throughout the 20th century. There was me thinking that hardly anyone knew or cared about it pre 9/11.

Amazing what you learn on AWIMB.

Eh? Did I dream the minor incident at the Munich Olympics, the regular hijackings during the 1970s, US embassy bombings, Lockerbie, WPC wossname getting shot ona london street, the first WTC attack... on the morning of 9/11 there was only one likely perp, wasn't there?

[Ash]

Really? I had no idea. Quite the eye opener that is. I guess I missed the ongoing threat to the west from Islamic terrorism that was so prevalent throughout the 20th century. There was me thinking that hardly anyone knew or cared about it pre 9/11.

Amazing what you learn on AWIMB.

It's been an ongoing struggle in the Balkans for hundreds of years, WES. Including the 20th century.

[World's End Stella]

The problem is that Muslim communities will only accept communication when it is on their terms. Look at how Muslim communities responded to the ‘Prevent’ programme as the perfect example of this. They even set up their own anti-extremist policies because ours weren’t to their liking.

Any criticism or suggestion that any fault lies within the communities themselves sparks a campaign of demonization led by the usual roll-call of apologists and Islamist sympathisers. Even the best-intentioned Muslim reformers like Majid Nawaz, who do exactly as you say and encourage other moderates to speak out, are castigated as Uncle Toms.

I believe an event such as this helps to validate those with no interest in affecting the changes required to bring Islam in line with western values and allows them to play non-Muslims off against each other. They will point to those who attended as the enlightened, open-minded souls who are willing to confront their prejudices head on and then point at everyone else with the temerity to speak critically about Islam and say “Islamophobes”.

That's some pretty serious pigeon-holing you're doing there Monty, combined with some pretty astonishing generalisations and sweeping assumptions.

There is a fundamental issue within our Muslim communities, there is no question about that. This problem is rooted to some extent in their religion and to some extent in the culture of the communities aboard in which many of them were raised. The extent to which it is either isn't really important because either way the solution is to engage in a positive way with these communities and encourage them to find a way reconcile their religious views and cultural experiences with life in a secular democracy.

You and Burney seem to think that all Muslims want to destroy our way of life because Islam teaches them to do so. Given that, I'd be curious as to what you think the solution is that doesn't involve improved communication.

[Burney]

You think that all Muslims want this? Every last one of them? And what if, in fact, it was a very small minority that wanted this, would that be relevant to the discussion and any possible solution?

IT'S IN THEIR BOOK, FFS! You know? The one they believe is the literal word of God and whose teachings they vow to follow faithfully?

Stop thinking you're dealing with reasonable, rational people who just happen to go to a different place to pray. This is the most basic mistake the wooly-minded make about Islam.
They ACTUALLY believe this shît. It's very very real to them - same as it would have been to a Christian peasant in medieval Europe. When they talk about Allah, they aren't talking symbolically or figuratively - he's real to them and he has made clear what he wants in through his Prophet. They believe every word and anyone who doesn't isn't actually a muslim.
Once you understand this, you also start to understand something about how Islam views you. To them you are just kuffar - a lower form of life whom they pity and despise. How you allow your wife or daughter to dress or behave disgusts and appals them - as does your drinking, your consumption of pork and your tolerance of things like homosexuality. Don't ever forget that the 'moderate muslim' you think can be reasoned with still believes things about you and your society that would horrify you.

[Monty92]

Really? I had no idea. Quite the eye opener that is. I guess I missed the ongoing threat to the west from Islamic terrorism that was so prevalent throughout the 20th century. There was me thinking that hardly anyone knew or cared about it pre 9/11.

Amazing what you learn on AWIMB.

Unbelievable...

[World's End Stella]

Eh? Did I dream the minor incident at the Munich Olympics, the regular hijackings during the 1970s, US embassy bombings, Lockerbie, WPC wossname getting shot ona london street, the first WTC attack... on the morning of 9/11 there was only one likely perp, wasn't there?

The Munich Olympics and the hijackings that I recall were all related to Palestinians targeting Israel and/or her allies, as they perceived them, and had precisely f*ck all to do with ' trying to subjugate the west since 711 because that's what they do'.

Try to stay on point, thanks.

[Burney]

That's some pretty serious pigeon-holing you're doing there Monty, combined with some pretty astonishing generalisations and sweeping assumptions.

There is a fundamental issue within our Muslim communities, there is no question about that. This problem is rooted to some extent in their religion and to some extent in the culture of the communities aboard in which many of them were raised. The extent to which it is either isn't really important because either way the solution is to engage in a positive way with these communities and encourage them to find a way reconcile their religious views and cultural experiences with life in a secular democracy.

You and Burney seem to think that all Muslims want to destroy our way of life because Islam teaches them to do so. Given that, I'd be curious as to what you think the solution is that doesn't involve improved communication.

The solution to the Islamic problem is what it's always been: superior force. Sadly, it's too late to do anything about that now, since they're already here. Ultimately, the relative breeding rates mean western culture is fücked because we will arrive at a demographic tipping point whereby they can use their numbers to enforce societal, legal and cultural changes. Barring some cataclysm, Islam will dominate within a couple of hundred years.

[Sir C]

Unbelievable...

I do believe we've been caught :fishing: :-(

[Sir C]

The Munich Olympics and the hijackings that I recall were all related to Palestinians targeting Israel and/or her allies, as they perceived them, and had precisely f*ck all to do with ' trying to subjugate the west since 711 because that's what they do'.

Try to stay on point, thanks.

Jesus Christ I think he might be serious :-( :usefulidiot:

[Monty92]

That's some pretty serious pigeon-holing you're doing there Monty, combined with some pretty astonishing generalisations and sweeping assumptions.

There is a fundamental issue within our Muslim communities, there is no question about that. This problem is rooted to some extent in their religion and to some extent in the culture of the communities aboard in which many of them were raised. The extent to which it is either isn't really important because either way the solution is to engage in a positive way with these communities and encourage them to find a way reconcile their religious views and cultural experiences with life in a secular democracy.

You and Burney seem to think that all Muslims want to destroy our way of life because Islam teaches them to do so. Given that, I'd be curious as to what you think the solution is that doesn't involve improved communication.

We do what is in our power. One thing that is in our power is to destroy the liberal consensus that has taken us to a point where no-one - not even the people best positioned to affect precisely the changes you allude to - is allowed to speak honestly and openly about the problems at hand.

In this respect, the dial seems to be shifting in a positive way.

It's not much, but it's something.

[World's End Stella]

It's been an ongoing struggle in the Balkans for hundreds of years, WES. Including the 20th century.

I'm not questioning the conflict between various religions, Ash, I'm commenting on the idea that Burney is floating that there are 100s of millions of Muslims around the world who want to destroy the west because Islam tells them to do so.

It's utter nonsense.

[World's End Stella]

We do what is in our power. One thing that is in our power is to destroy the liberal consensus that has taken us to a point where no-one - not even the people best positioned to affect precisely the changes you allude to - is allowed to speak honestly and openly about the problems at hand.

In this respect, the dial seems to be shifting in a positive way.

It's not much, but it's something.

Oh I agree completely with that, that's another step that needs to be taken.

Then what?

[World's End Stella]

Jesus Christ I think he might be serious :-( :usefulidiot:

Yeah those Palestinians that shot Jewish athletes in Munich did so as part of their ongoing attempt to overthrow western civilization. :hehe:

Listen Charles, it's OK to get something wrong every now and then. Happens to the best of us. Man up and move on.

[World's End Stella]

IT'S IN THEIR BOOK, FFS! You know? The one they believe is the literal word of God and whose teachings they vow to follow faithfully?

Stop thinking you're dealing with reasonable, rational people who just happen to go to a different place to pray. This is the most basic mistake the wooly-minded make about Islam.
They ACTUALLY believe this shît. It's very very real to them - same as it would have been to a Christian peasant in medieval Europe. When they talk about Allah, they aren't talking symbolically or figuratively - he's real to them and he has made clear what he wants in through his Prophet. They believe every word and anyone who doesn't isn't actually a muslim.
Once you understand this, you also start to understand something about how Islam views you. To them you are just kuffar - a lower form of life whom they pity and despise. How you allow your wife or daughter to dress or behave disgusts and appals them - as does your drinking, your consumption of pork and your tolerance of things like homosexuality. Don't ever forget that the 'moderate muslim' you think can be reasoned with still believes things about you and your society that would horrify you.

:clap:

You frighten me :-(

[Monty92]

Oh I agree completely with that, that's another step that needs to be taken.

Then what?

I've no idea. We're quite possibly ****ed.

But it's probably worth holding another Mosque Open Day, just in case it helps. I heard they give you a goody bag and everything.

[Burney]

Really? I had no idea. Quite the eye opener that is. I guess I missed the ongoing threat to the west from Islamic terrorism that was so prevalent throughout the 20th century. There was me thinking that hardly anyone knew or cared about it pre 9/11.

Amazing what you learn on AWIMB.

The historical reasons for that are clear. The collapse of the Ottoman empire meant that the biggest Islamic force was gone, leaving a huge Islamic power vacuum. For a time it seemed that might be filled by secularist nationalism such as Mustafa Kemal's Turkey and Nasser's Egypt, but when that didn't happen, it was Saudi oil money and theology that came along and dominated.
Prior to that, there was plenty of threat - from the Almohads in Spain to the Turks at the gates of Vienna all the way up to the Mahdi in Sudan in the late 19th Century.
If you think this stuff is new, you're kidding yourself. Islamic terrorism is just the latest manifestation of a phenomenon that's 1300 years old.

[Burney]

:clap:

You frighten me :-(

Right. I frighten you, but you want to reach out to the people who explicitly want to turn the clock of civilisation back 600 or 700 years don't? Fück me. :shakehead:

[Burney]

I'm not questioning the conflict between various religions, Ash, I'm commenting on the idea that Burney is floating that there are 100s of millions of Muslims around the world who want to destroy the west because Islam tells them to do so.

It's utter nonsense.

Even though they keep telling you that they want to end western society as you know it, you don't believe them? :hehe:

[World's End Stella]

The historical reasons for that are clear. The collapse of the Ottoman empire meant that the biggest Islamic force was gone, leaving a huge Islamic power vacuum. For a time it seemed that might be filled by secularist nationalism such as Mustafa Kemal's Turkey and Nasser's Egypt, but when that didn't happen, it was Saudi oil money and theology that came along and dominated.
Prior to that, there was plenty of threat - from the Almohads in Spain to the Turks at the gates of Vienna all the way up to the Mahdi in Sudan in the late 19th Century.
If you think this stuff is new, you're kidding yourself. Islamic terrorism is just the latest manifestation of a phenomenon that's 1300 years old.

That's all very interesting Burney but you still haven't answered my question(s). Roughly what % of Muslims worldwide do you think want to overthrow western civilization and rule the world? I don't care what the Quran says in just the same way that I don't care what the Bible tells fundamentalist Christians.

Start with an easy number, more or less than 50%?

[World's End Stella]

Even though they keep telling you that they want to end western society as you know it, you don't believe them? :hehe:

They don't keep telling me that. :shrug:

A very small minority want that as far as I can tell, I'd be curious as to the evidence that it is a much larger number? And The Quran says a great many things, the idea that every Muslim in the world believes and is actively looking to implement them is inconsistent with the peaceful Muslim communities which exist all over our planet including in the west.

[World's End Stella]

I've no idea. We're quite possibly ****ed.

But it's probably worth holding another Mosque Open Day, just in case it helps. I heard they give you a goody bag and everything.

Well if you have no idea, let me suggest we talk to them. It's actually quite a good thing trying to understand people, Monty.

[Monty92]

That's all very interesting Burney but you still haven't answered my question(s). Roughly what % of Muslims worldwide do you think want to overthrow western civilization and rule the world? I don't care what the Quran says in just the same way that I don't care what the Bible tells fundamentalist Christians.

Start with an easy number, more or less than 50%?


Given that 52% of British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, I think we're safe in saying that globally we are talking about significant numbers.

Incidently, the question is posed as if violent means are the only way this could be achieved. Of course, the sheer birth rate numbers could do the job all on their own.

[Monty92]

Well if you have no idea, let me suggest we talk to them. It's actually quite a good thing trying to understand people, Monty.

We do talk to them already. But as soon as we say something they don't like, they cry Islamophobia.

[World's End Stella]

Given that 52% of British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, I think we're safe in saying that globally we are talking about significant numbers.

Incidently, the question is posed as if violent means are the only way this could be achieved. Of course, the sheer birth rate numbers could do the job all on their own.

You don't think there's a pretty significant step from thinking homosexuality should be illegal to overthrowing western civilization?

You're taking the piss, right? :hehe:

BTW, I would be surprised if there aren't states in America where that number would be larger than 52%.

[Monty92]

You don't think there's a pretty significant step from thinking homosexuality should be illegal to overthrowing western civilization?

You're taking the piss, right? :hehe:

BTW, I would be surprised if there aren't states in America where that number would be larger than 52%.

I think it's instructive, not least because those numbers are from a Muslim population living in a liberal democracy. Imagine those numbers somewhere like Bangladesh?

I think it stands to reason that if the values of the country in which you live are anathema to you, that you would prefer, if the stars aligned, to live in a country with values closer to your own. This does not necessarily mean you are willing to participate in a violent overthrow, but it does mean that you may not be opposed to the idea of Islam growing in power and influence - and if you acknowledge that, who's to say that the same person would object to a full blown takeover, especially if achieved through non-violent stealth means such as population surges allied with mass migration.

As I said, I think the premise is flawed. Islamification of Europe does not necessarily require a war.

[Burney]

That's all very interesting Burney but you still haven't answered my question(s). Roughly what % of Muslims worldwide do you think want to overthrow western civilization and rule the world? I don't care what the Quran says in just the same way that I don't care what the Bible tells fundamentalist Christians.

Start with an easy number, more or less than 50%?

Easily more than 50%. If you ask how many in this country alone want sharia law, want insulting the Prophet to be illegal (to the point of execution), want homosexuality to be illegal (again to the point of execution), etc, etc, it's obvious.
Those things they want are so fundamental that they will effectively undermine western society as we understand it. And remember that those are just the things they feel comfortable talking about in public or to pollsters. These people are governed by their faith in a way that your blithe comparison with the bible shows you absolutely have not grasped. The two are simply not comparable and haven't been for centuries.

[Burney]

Well if you have no idea, let me suggest we talk to them. It's actually quite a good thing trying to understand people, Monty.

The thing is, with everything you say you prove that you understand absolutely nothing about them whatsoever.
Try reading what these people actually believe and then start pontificating about understanding them.

[World's End Stella]

Easily more than 50%. If you ask how many in this country alone want sharia law, want insulting the Prophet to be illegal (to the point of execution), want homosexuality to be illegal (again to the point of execution), etc, etc, it's obvious.
Those things they want are so fundamental that they will effectively undermine western society as we understand it. And remember that those are just the things they feel comfortable talking about in public or to pollsters. These people are governed by their faith in a way that your blithe comparison with the bible shows you absolutely have not grasped. The two are simply not comparable and haven't been for centuries.

'The research suggests that 86% of British Muslims feel a strong sense of belonging in Britain, which is higher than the national average of 83%. A large majority (91%) of the British Muslims who took part in the survey said they felt a strong sense of belonging in their local area, which is higher than the national average of 76%.

Of those questioned, 88% said Britain was a good place for Muslims to live in, and 78% said they would like to integrate into British life on most things apart from Islamic schooling and some laws.

Nearly a quarter (23%) supported the introduction of sharia law in some areas of Britain'

Reading all that, I'm struggling with the idea that over 50% want to overthrow western civilization when not even a quarter of those polled wanted Sharia law, and even then only in some areas of Britain. You can see the desire for integration in those numbers, and integration is the only solution. The first step towards further integration? Better communication.

The biggest threat to integration? People who hold views like you and Monty.

[World's End Stella]

And furthermore:

“Although they may not accept it from a religious point of view, [Muslims] accept that people should be able to have the freedom and right not be discriminated against and and live their lives,” said Gohir, adding that LGBT Muslims were beginning to speak out publicly and increasing numbers of Muslim families were having to come to terms with family members coming out as gay.

She said the findings on women’s issues did not reflect changing attitudes among younger generations of British Muslims, arguing that younger Muslim women were coming to better understand what their rights were according to the teachings of Islam.

Gohir said the findings went against the portrayal in the media of Muslims not feeling proud to be British. “These stereotypes do not reflect the reality of Muslims in Britain,” she said. “It is important to also display these positive attitudes … because that represents the British Muslim majority.”

[World's End Stella]

I think it's instructive, not least because those numbers are from a Muslim population living in a liberal democracy. Imagine those numbers somewhere like Bangladesh?

I think it stands to reason that if the values of the country in which you live are anathema to you, that you would prefer, if the stars aligned, to live in a country with values closer to your own. This does not necessarily mean you are willing to participate in a violent overthrow, but it does mean that you may not be opposed to the idea of Islam growing in power and influence - and if you acknowledge that, who's to say that the same person would object to a full blown takeover, especially if achieved through non-violent stealth means such as population surges allied with mass migration.

As I said, I think the premise is flawed. Islamification of Europe does not necessarily require a war.

Don't think I mentioned a war anywhere at all so not sure what premise it is that is flawed?

[redgunamo]

Nobody trusts pollsters anymore, do they surely.

Do you speak Arabic, or whatever? As a man of the world, you must have been in situations where people do not know you can understand their language, what they are saying to each other?



'The research suggests that 86% of British Muslims feel a strong sense of belonging in Britain, which is higher than the national average of 83%. A large majority (91%) of the British Muslims who took part in the survey said they felt a strong sense of belonging in their local area, which is higher than the national average of 76%.

Of those questioned, 88% said Britain was a good place for Muslims to live in, and 78% said they would like to integrate into British life on most things apart from Islamic schooling and some laws.

Nearly a quarter (23%) supported the introduction of sharia law in some areas of Britain'

Reading all that, I'm struggling with the idea that over 50% want to overthrow western civilization when not even a quarter of those polled wanted Sharia law, and even then only in some areas of Britain. You can see the desire for integration in those numbers, and integration is the only solution. The first step towards further integration? Better communication.

The biggest threat to integration? People who hold views like you and Monty.

[Burney]

And furthermore:

“Although they may not accept it from a religious point of view, [Muslims] accept that people should be able to have the freedom and right not be discriminated against and and live their lives,” said Gohir, adding that LGBT Muslims were beginning to speak out publicly and increasing numbers of Muslim families were having to come to terms with family members coming out as gay.

She said the findings on women’s issues did not reflect changing attitudes among younger generations of British Muslims, arguing that younger Muslim women were coming to better understand what their rights were according to the teachings of Islam.

Gohir said the findings went against the portrayal in the media of Muslims not feeling proud to be British. “These stereotypes do not reflect the reality of Muslims in Britain,” she said. “It is important to also display these positive attitudes … because that represents the British Muslim majority.”

:hehe: Somewhat selective with the findings there, aren't you?

'The 615-page survey found that more than 100,000 British Muslims sympathize with suicide bombers and people who commit other terrorist acts. Moreover, only one in three British Muslims (34%) would contact the police if they believed that somebody close to them had become involved with jihadists.

In addition, 23% of British Muslims said Islamic Sharia law should replace British law in areas with large Muslim populations.

On social issues, 52% of the Muslims surveyed said they believe homosexuality should be illegal, compared to 22% of non-Muslim Britons. Nearly half believe it is unacceptable for a gay or lesbian to teach their children. At the same time, almost a third (31%) of British Muslims think polygamy should be legalized. Among 18-to-24-year-olds, 35% think it is acceptable to have more than one wife.
'Thirty-nine percent of Muslims surveyed believe women should always obey their husbands, compared to 5% for non-Muslims. One in three British Muslims refuse completely to condemn the stoning of women accused of adultery.
The poll also found that a fifth of British Muslims have not entered the home of a non-Muslim in the past year.
Of the British Muslims surveyed, 35% believe Jewish people have too much power in the UK, compared to 8% of non-Muslims.'

And that's just part of it. Of course they like being here - we let them get away with this sh1t.
The fact is that these figures strongly suggest that overall, a majority of British muslims hold views and attitudes that are wholly incompatible with western liberal values (and that's just the British ones, remember!), while a significant number actively sympathise with our enemies. Equally, you have to bear in mind that attitudes in Muslim society are becoming more, not less conservative.
Either way, your 'tiny minority' assertion is palpable nonsense.

[World's End Stella]

:hehe: Somewhat selective with the findings there, aren't you?

'The 615-page survey found that more than 100,000 British Muslims sympathize with suicide bombers and people who commit other terrorist acts. Moreover, only one in three British Muslims (34%) would contact the police if they believed that somebody close to them had become involved with jihadists.

In addition, 23% of British Muslims said Islamic Sharia law should replace British law in areas with large Muslim populations.

On social issues, 52% of the Muslims surveyed said they believe homosexuality should be illegal, compared to 22% of non-Muslim Britons. Nearly half believe it is unacceptable for a gay or lesbian to teach their children. At the same time, almost a third (31%) of British Muslims think polygamy should be legalized. Among 18-to-24-year-olds, 35% think it is acceptable to have more than one wife.
'Thirty-nine percent of Muslims surveyed believe women should always obey their husbands, compared to 5% for non-Muslims. One in three British Muslims refuse completely to condemn the stoning of women accused of adultery.
The poll also found that a fifth of British Muslims have not entered the home of a non-Muslim in the past year.
Of the British Muslims surveyed, 35% believe Jewish people have too much power in the UK, compared to 8% of non-Muslims.'

And that's just part of it. Of course they like being here - we let them get away with this sh1t.
The fact is that these figures strongly suggest that overall, a majority of British muslims hold views and attitudes that are wholly incompatible with western liberal values (and that's just the British ones, remember!), while a significant number actively sympathise with our enemies. Equally, you have to bear in mind that attitudes in Muslim society are becoming more, not less conservative.
Either way, your 'tiny minority' assertion is palpable nonsense.

Not at all, your cut n paste supports my view as much as mine did. Remember, your contention is that all Muslims want to eventually overthrow western civilization because that is what their religion teaches them. I would suggest that those stats above make it very clear that this is not true. 77% of Muslims in Britain don't want Sharia law in any form and yet all of them want to overthrow western civilization? Really?

And I strongly disagree that the attitudes within our Muslim communities are becoming more conservative. With integration and communication they will become successively more progressive with each generation, I think the statistics above and some of the commentary from Muslim leaders shows that. The biggest threat to this progression is a lack of communication and understanding.

Communication, engagement, patience, a strong commitment to our fundamental principles and time, Burney, and all will be well. Drawing lines in the sand and a confrontational attitude will not solve this problem.

[Pokster]

:hehe: Somewhat selective with the findings there, aren't you?

The poll also found that a fifth of British Muslims have not entered the home of a non-Muslim in the past year.




wonder what % of non muslims have been in a muslim home in the last year... probably very low as there seems to be a lack of trust on both sides

[Burney]

Not at all, your cut n paste supports my view as much as mine did. Remember, your contention is that all Muslims want to eventually overthrow western civilization because that is what their religion teaches them. I would suggest that those stats above make it very clear that this is not true. 77% of Muslims in Britain don't want Sharia law in any form and yet all of them want to overthrow western civilization? Really?

And I strongly disagree that the attitudes within our Muslim communities are becoming more conservative. With integration and communication they will become successively more progressive with each generation, I think the statistics above and some of the commentary from Muslim leaders shows that. The biggest threat to this progression is a lack of communication and understanding.

Communication, engagement, patience, a strong commitment to our fundamental principles and time, Burney, and all will be well. Drawing lines in the sand and a confrontational attitude will not solve this problem.

As Monty points out, you are making the mistake of thinking that the overthrow of western civilisation is of necessity a violent process. In fact, it is a creeping, insidious one and is already happening. The evidence for that is that we are so stupid as to see it as in some way a positive that 'only' a quarter of our largest non-indigenous ethnic group openly admit to seeking a barbaric penal code rather than our enlightened one. That statistic ought to horrify you. Instead, because you're a woolly-minded optimist, you seem to find that encouraging.
The same goes for all the other repulsive attitudes these barbarians openly express. Because 'onl'y a third of them refuse to condemn stoning a woman to death for adultery, you conclude that they're good chaps really and we ought to cut them some slack. Unbelievable idiocy.
Also, bear in mind that this is just what they're prepared to admit openly to a pollster. Imagine the sort of sh1t they come out with in private!
As for the idea that muslim attitudes are becoming less conservative, it's just nonsense, I'm afraid. The rise of Saudi-funded Wahabbism has taken huge hold in muslim societies worldwide and is most adhered to in the younger generations, not the older ones. They are getting more conservative, which is why you see the veil, the niqab and even the burqa far more these days than you did even 20 years ago.
If you want to stick your head in the sand and witter on wetly about understanding and communication, that's up to you. However, even a short conversation with some of these guys will fundamental principles are anathema to them and that they aren't interested in meeting us half way. They will not integrate and will not compromise. And they hold us in contempt because we will.

[World's End Stella]

As Monty points out, you are making the mistake of thinking that the overthrow of western civilisation is of necessity a violent process. In fact, it is a creeping, insidious one and is already happening. The evidence for that is that we are so stupid as to see it as in some way a positive that 'only' a quarter of our largest non-indigenous ethnic group openly admit to seeking a barbaric penal code rather than our enlightened one. That statistic ought to horrify you. Instead, because you're a woolly-minded optimist, you seem to find that encouraging.
The same goes for all the other repulsive attitudes these barbarians openly express. Because 'onl'y a third of them refuse to condemn stoning a woman to death for adultery, you conclude that they're good chaps really and we ought to cut them some slack. Unbelievable idiocy.
Also, bear in mind that this is just what they're prepared to admit openly to a pollster. Imagine the sort of sh1t they come out with in private!
As for the idea that muslim attitudes are becoming less conservative, it's just nonsense, I'm afraid. The rise of Saudi-funded Wahabbism has taken huge hold in muslim societies worldwide and is most adhered to in the younger generations, not the older ones. They are getting more conservative, which is why you see the veil, the niqab and even the burqa far more these days than you did even 20 years ago.
If you want to stick your head in the sand and witter on wetly about understanding and communication, that's up to you. However, even a short conversation with some of these guys will fundamental principles are anathema to them and that they aren't interested in meeting us half way. They will not integrate and will not compromise. And they hold us in contempt because we will.

Christ almighty Burney, do you actually read what someone posts before you reply? I'll pick out two and then give up as it's a waste of my time.

'As Monty points out, you are making the mistake of thinking that the overthrow of western civilisation is of necessity a violent process' - I didn't say that, in fact, I explicitly replied to Monty asking him to point out where I said that because I didn't think I did nor did I mean to

'Because 'onl'y a third of them refuse to condemn stoning a woman to death for adultery, you conclude that they're good chaps really and we ought to cut them some slack.' - I never said that either, I said that because 77% (I'm repeating myself here) don't want Sharia Law I fail to see how all of them can be accused of wanting to overthrow western civilization, as you had suggested.

If you can't read what I posted, understand it and respond in a sensible and relevant way without making absurd logical leaps then there is no point in the discussion.

[Ash]

I said that because 77% (I'm repeating myself here) don't want Sharia Law I fail to see how all of them can be accused of wanting to overthrow western civilization, as you had suggested.


I will agree with you that the numbers available from the poll do not support a contention that there is evidence that all, or even a majority of British muslims want to overthrow western civilisation. At this point.

What we do know from the poll is that fairly significant numbers do support things that horrify us. The wide support for women's subjugation (not broken down btw male and female, oddly) might be attractive to some of us, tbf, but certainly not to western women on the whole. This, the widely-held attitudes to homosexuality, images of the prophet, apostasy and so on must, if we are being honest, be talking points, even if you believe that the numbers currently available do not pose an immediate existential concern.

I suggest we should start by recognising three different things.

1. Muslims.
2. Islam.
3. Islamism.

The former are people who should be treated as individuals, and should not be mistreated or pre-judged without the usual due process and so on.

The second is a religion which westerners should be allowed to question, disagree with and criticise.

The third is a barbaric and backward political system which we must strongly and robustly oppose.

I won't show the whole of the working from here, at this point, but these are the precepts that must be understood imo.

[World's End Stella]

I will agree with you that the numbers available from the poll do not support a contention that there is evidence that all, or even a majority of British muslims want to overthrow western civilisation. At this point.

What we do know from the poll is that fairly significant numbers do support things that horrify us. The wide support for women's subjugation (not broken down btw male and female, oddly) might be attractive to some of us, tbf, but certainly not to western women on the whole. This, the widely-held attitudes to homosexuality, images of the prophet, apostasy and so on must, if we are being honest, be talking points, even if you believe that the numbers currently available do not pose an immediate existential concern.

I suggest we should start by recognising three different things.

1. Muslims.
2. Islam.
3. Islamism.

The former are people who should be treated as individuals, and should not be mistreated or pre-judged without the usual due process and so on.

The second is a religion which westerners should be allowed to question, disagree with and criticise.

The third is a barbaric and backward political system which we must strongly and robustly oppose.

I won't show the whole of the working from here, at this point, but these are the precepts that must be understood imo.

Yeah I agree with all that. There are two fundamental differences of opinion between myself and Burney/Monty. That which you have highlighted above, and the approach to resolving the issue in the long term.

I think that with time, communication, patience and understanding, eventually our Muslim communities will integrate into our culture in such a way that all that we hold dear remains, and they maintain some form of commitment to their religion. Burney/Monty think that this is impossible and there is no solution beyond maintaining the strength required to prevent them from overcoming us.

A rather depressing view from them, I think.

[Ash]

I think that with time, communication, patience and understanding, eventually our Muslim communities will integrate into our culture in such a way that all that we hold dear remains, and they maintain some form of commitment to their religion. Burney/Monty think that this is impossible and there is no solution beyond maintaining the strength required to prevent them from overcoming us.


We do need to be strong. We do need to defend our enlightenment values, but we won't do that without a consensus amongst ourselves (westerners) as to what those values are and why we should defend them.

Islam is more conservative and radical now than it was in the past. Years ago it would be very rare to see the niqab worn, and now we see this every day. Well, I do. Not sure about your Surrey/City bubble. This is partly due to the influence of Saudi Wahabbism, but also, I believe, reflects the rise of identity politics within the west, and a crisis of confidence in our own values, leaving a vacuum into which Wahabbism has flown.

[Monty92]

Yeah I agree with all that. There are two fundamental differences of opinion between myself and Burney/Monty. That which you have highlighted above, and the approach to resolving the issue in the long term.

I think that with time, communication, patience and understanding, eventually our Muslim communities will integrate into our culture in such a way that all that we hold dear remains, and they maintain some form of commitment to their religion. Burney/Monty think that this is impossible and there is no solution beyond maintaining the strength required to prevent them from overcoming us.

A rather depressing view from them, I think.

You are creating a straw man. Berni and I both advocate communication. But at every turn, efforts to communicate with them are rebuffed. The only communication they are open to is on their terms.

What was the "Prevent" strategy if not an attempt to communicate effectively with muslim communities in order to tackle radicialiation of young muslims? But they didn't want to know. They cried Islamophobia and set up their own strategy, shutting out non-muslims from the debate.

[World's End Stella]

You are creating a straw man. Berni and I both advocate communication. But at every turn, efforts to communicate with them are rebuffed. The only communication they are open to is on their terms.

What was the "Prevent" strategy if not an attempt to communicate effectively with muslim communities in order to tackle radicialiation of young muslims? But they didn't want to know. They cried Islamophobia and set up their own strategy, shutting out non-muslims from the debate.

So you support communication despite just spending almost that entire post point out how fruitless it is?

:clap:

[redgunamo]

So you support communication despite just spending almost that entire post point out how fruitless it is?

:clap:

You support communication, yet you don't even speak their language

:clap:

[Luis Anaconda]

You support communication, yet you don't even speak their language

:clap:

WES is a great communicator - he can shout louder than almost anybody

[World's End Stella]

You support communication, yet you don't even speak their language

:clap:

I think you're doing that insane thing again, red. :-)

Are you really saying that someone shouldn't hold the view that communication is one of the keys to solving the issues the west is facing with Islamic fundamentalism, unless they can speak Arabic?

[World's End Stella]

WES is a great communicator - he can shout louder than almost anybody

Yeah, well I don't recall my ability to shout 'Anaconda, it's your round' having any f*cking impact.

[Luis Anaconda]

Yeah, well I don't recall my ability to shout 'Anaconda, it's your round' having any f*cking impact.

Selective deafness is a terrible curse

[redgunamo]

I think you're doing that insane thing again, red. :-)

Are you really saying that someone shouldn't hold the view that communication is one of the keys to solving the issues the west is facing with Islamic fundamentalism, unless they can speak Arabic?

Yeah, soldier, see. Uneducated, barbaric. Call it insane, if you like. We do "communicate" very well though. With guns. And reapers. And the Sixth Fleet. By killing everyone and smashing the place up. Some of us can even say "Take that, mother****er!" in the Dhofari or whatever tongue too, if we feel like it. Personally, as a result of my lifelong saluki jones, I have a decent grasp of several Arabic dialects.

But what is *your* communication to amount to? When you haven't even bothered to learn anything more or better than I have. How exactly are you going to communicate if you can't even talk to, and equally, listen to, these people. How is it you're prepared to lecture but not learn.

Surely you can see for yourself, you're just posing. I'm not saying you must speak Arabic to have a view. I am saying, if you have a view, you ought to be ashamed and embarrassed that you don't.