Is it possible for the West to do anything right in the Middle East?

[Burney]

Full-scale, boots-on-the-ground intervention and we get Iraq
Just intervene with air power and we get Libya.
Don't (or barely) intervene and we get Syria.

Seems to me that these people are intent on slaughtering one another and nothing we do is going to make a damn bit of difference. :shrug:

[Pat Vegas]

Full-scale, boots-on-the-ground intervention and we get Iraq
Just intervene with air power and we get Libya.
Don't (or barely) intervene and we get Syria.

Seems to me that these people are intent on slaughtering one another and nothing we do is going to make a damn bit of difference. :shrug:

I misread this as West Ham in the middle east.

[Luis Anaconda]

Full-scale, boots-on-the-ground intervention and we get Iraq
Just intervene with air power and we get Libya.
Don't (or barely) intervene and we get Syria.

Seems to me that these people are intent on slaughtering one another and nothing we do is going to make a damn bit of difference. :shrug:
Easy one this,b. No, we can't. Though in memory of Jorge can I point out it is all fault anyway. Somehow

[Burney]

Easy one this,b. No, we can't. Though in memory of Jorge can I point out it is all fault anyway. Somehow

Interesting parallel I saw someone draw the other day. He suggested the ME may currently be going through its equivalent of The Thirty Years War. I think he meant it as an optimistic point of view, suggesting that a more secular enlightenment-type deal may result eventually.

[Luis Anaconda]

Interesting parallel I saw someone draw the other day. He suggested the ME may currently be going through its equivalent of The Thirty Years War. I think he meant it as an optimistic point of view, suggesting that a more secular enlightenment-type deal may result eventually.

Bizarrely, I was just thinking the same thing. They are just a few centuries behind really. Sadly I don't think history is that neat

[Burney]

Bizarrely, I was just thinking the same thing. They are just a few centuries behind really. Sadly I don't think history is that neat

I don't think anyone would describe the Thirty Years War as 'neat', la. ;-)

No, of course it's not, but it's interesting how many of the same forces are in play and in similar ways. It would be nice to think that, after a few decades of devastation and many millions dead, they might reach the conclusion that maybe all this religion business is overrated, tbh.

[Luis Anaconda]

I don't think anyone would describe the Thirty Years War as 'neat', la. ;-)



It least it was a nice round number :-)

[Monty92]

I don't think anyone would describe the Thirty Years War as 'neat', la. ;-)

No, of course it's not, but it's interesting how many of the same forces are in play and in similar ways. It would be nice to think that, after a few decades of devastation and many millions dead, they might reach the conclusion that maybe all this religion business is overrated, tbh.

We could help nudge things along by stopping pretending that moderate, non-violent, western assimilated muslims are not a huge part of the problem, too?

[Burney]

We could help nudge things along by stopping pretending that moderate, non-violent, western assimilated muslims are not a huge part of the problem, too?

I think recognising that this is very much a pan-islamic family feud would be a good thing, m. Us trying to play 'good muslim/bad muslim' is unhelpful in the extreme. They're going to have to sort this shït out among themselves.

[Ash]

Full-scale, boots-on-the-ground intervention and we get Iraq
Just intervene with air power and we get Libya.
Don't (or barely) intervene and we get Syria.

Seems to me that these people are intent on slaughtering one another and nothing we do is going to make a damn bit of difference. :shrug:

The usual one-sided reporting of unverified claims, which even if true, only ever seem to be about offenses committed by forces aligned to one side (the Syrian government) in the battle for East Aleppo, with the aim of raising the clamour for somethingmustbedonery in support of the 'rebels' (new name for Al-Queda).

We don't know what is happening in Al-Queda-held areas because these people, y'know, tend to chop journalists heads off, so we rely on 'tweets' and 'doctors' which are assumed to be geniune. I suspect they are from the same PR sources funded by Washington and Westminster which have been providing the same drip-drip of propaganda for the last five years.

http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/british-government-funded-outlet-offered-us-journalist-17000-month-produce

Like the story of protest singer Ibrahim Qashoush, reported by BBC, CNN, Guardian, Telegraph, to have been brutally murdered by the 'regime', with his vocal chords cut out, who turns up alive and well in Spain. #fakenews

http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/syria-civil-war

The West *is* intervening in the conflict in Syria, and the conflict exists because the West started the civil war in the first place (or massively helped it along) with the familiar aim of regime change. And with the familiar outcome which as usual is being blamed on other sides and dutifully reported as such in the usual places.

[redgunamo]

Full-scale, boots-on-the-ground intervention and we get Iraq
Just intervene with air power and we get Libya.
Don't (or barely) intervene and we get Syria.

Seems to me that these people are intent on slaughtering one another and nothing we do is going to make a damn bit of difference. :shrug:

Make a few quid out of it.

[redgunamo]

East Aleppo, eh? Well, if that's *East* Aleppo, one shudders to think what West Aleppo must be like.

:wodehouse:


The usual one-sided reporting of unverified claims, which even if true, only ever seem to be about offenses committed by forces aligned to one side (the Syrian government) in the battle for East Aleppo, with the aim of raising the clamour for somethingmustbedonery in support of the 'rebels' (new name for Al-Queda).

We don't know what is happening in Al-Queda-held areas because these people, y'know, tend to chop journalists heads off, so we rely on 'tweets' and 'doctors' which are pretended to be geniune. I suspect they are from the same PR sources funded by Washington and Westminster which have been providing the same drip-drip of propaganda for the last five years.

http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/british-government-funded-outlet-offered-us-journalist-17000-month-produce

Like the story of protest singer Ibrahim Qashoush, reported by BBC, CNN, Guardian, Telegraph, to have been brutally murdered by the 'regime', with his vocal chords cut out, who turns up alive and well in Spain. #fakenews

http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/syria-civil-war

The West *is* intervening in the conflict in Syria, and the conflict exists because the West started the civil war in the first place with the familiar aim of regime change. And with the familiar outcome which as usual is being blamed on other sides and dutifully reported as such in the usual places.

[Monty92]

The usual one-sided reporting of unverified claims, which even if true, only ever seem to be about offenses committed by forces aligned to one side (the Syrian government) in the battle for East Aleppo, with the aim of raising the clamour for somethingmustbedonery in support of the 'rebels' (new name for Al-Queda).

We don't know what is happening in Al-Queda-held areas because these people, y'know, tend to chop journalists heads off, so we rely on 'tweets' and 'doctors' which are assumed to be geniune. I suspect they are from the same PR sources funded by Washington and Westminster which have been providing the same drip-drip of propaganda for the last five years.

http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/british-government-funded-outlet-offered-us-journalist-17000-month-produce

Like the story of protest singer Ibrahim Qashoush, reported by BBC, CNN, Guardian, Telegraph, to have been brutally murdered by the 'regime', with his vocal chords cut out, who turns up alive and well in Spain. #fakenews

http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/syria-civil-war

The West *is* intervening in the conflict in Syria, and the conflict exists because the West started the civil war in the first place (or massively helped it along) with the familiar aim of regime change. And with the familiar outcome which as usual is being blamed on other sides and dutifully reported as such in the usual places.

Isn't the problem that just when things start to get really messy in these conflicts, the west loses its nerve, in large part because of political pressure back home imposed by 'progressives' and squeamish anti-war movements. Like when Obama talked about the 'red line' of Assad using chemical weapons and then pussying out when he did.

[World's End Stella]

All it really proves is how much we undervalue a truly brutal dictator who keeps his population of nutters under firm control.

A man with whom you can do business should never be under-valued, no matter how much of a c*nt he is.

[Burney]

Isn't the problem that just when things start to get really messy in these conflicts, the west loses its nerve, in large part because of political pressure back home imposed by 'progressives' and squeamish anti-war movements. Like when Obama talked about the 'red line' of Assad using chemical weapons and then pussying out when he did.

Elected politicians can't really do long-term strategy, though, that's the problem, since they're on a two-year cycle between the need to get re-elected or step down raises its ugly head. It makes taking decisive action difficult. Dictators like Putin have the advantage there.

[Burney]

All it really proves is how much we undervalue a truly brutal dictator who keeps his population of nutters under firm control.

A man with whom you can do business should never be under-valued, no matter how much of a c*nt he is.


This 'hard man' line gets trotted out regularly and rather ignores the fact that these sort of quasi-socialist, kleptocratic, 'hard-man' dictators like Mubarak and Assad are actually shït at running their countries. They give the appearance of keeping the lid on, but actually balls things up to the extent of them becoming backwards, rat poor and basically forming a wonderful breeding ground for resentful hard-line islamists.

[Monty92]

Elected politicians can't really do long-term strategy, though, that's the problem, since they're on a two-year cycle between the need to get re-elected or step down raises its ugly head. It makes taking decisive action difficult. Dictators like Putin have the advantage there.

Yes, but the limitations of democracy are made exceedingly worse by electorates' woeful inability to see the world with dispassionate eyes. Without that flaw, a whole lot more good would likely get done a whole lot quicker.

[Monty92]

This 'hard man' line gets trotted out regularly and rather ignores the fact that these sort of quasi-socialist, kleptocratic, 'hard-man' dictators like Mubarak and Assad are actually shït at running their countries. They give the appearance of keeping the lid on, but actually balls things up to the extent of them becoming backwards, rat poor and basically forming a wonderful breeding ground for resentful hard-line islamists.

I don't think the failure of any state populated by millions upon millions of religious fanatics to whom the very concepts of wealth and prosperity is anathema can really be blamed on any individual leader. It's pretty much the geopolitical equivalent of the England job.

What would have become of Saudi Arabia if they hadn't struck oil?

[Tony C]

Supreme Leader Trump will bring peace to the world imo.

Will go down as the greatest ever US President...Lincoln and Roosevelt ain't going to have sh*t on him.

-

failing that we can always use Plan G....i.e. let Israel off their leash and let them pick a country to nuke....might as well give the nod and wink to the Indians to do the same to Pakistan while we're at it.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Full-scale, boots-on-the-ground intervention and we get Iraq
Just intervene with air power and we get Libya.
Don't (or barely) intervene and we get Syria.

Seems to me that these people are intent on slaughtering one another and nothing we do is going to make a damn bit of difference. :shrug:

"Is it possible for the West to do anything right in the Middle East?"

Colonise the place? That was right in the past.

I read a book review of Baghdad in the Sun Times a year ago, which said the only peaceful time in its history was under GB rule in the inter-war years as part of the League of Nations mandate.

The natives didn't have the vote anyway, but under GB rule they at least had the rule of law and security forces who were above all the sectarian conflict and put a stop to it.

Wouldn't work now, mind.

But it's another of those imperial questions most fellow lefties find a bit tricky. Unfortunately, they seem to have been better off under our rule. Still, at least we robbed all their oil so we can feel guilty about that.

[World's End Stella]

This 'hard man' line gets trotted out regularly and rather ignores the fact that these sort of quasi-socialist, kleptocratic, 'hard-man' dictators like Mubarak and Assad are actually shït at running their countries. They give the appearance of keeping the lid on, but actually balls things up to the extent of them becoming backwards, rat poor and basically forming a wonderful breeding ground for resentful hard-line islamists.

Oh I don't know - Saddam had a pretty good control of Iraq, the problem with Mubarak and Assad was that they weren't hard enough. Saudi is effectively a dictatorship but given that they based their entire society around Wahhabism it's hardly surprising that they've exported loads of mental Allans. Would we have been better off in many of these countries if we had picked a brutal dictator type and said 'do what you want to your people, provided you stop exporting terrorism we'll give you all the money and arms that you need to keep power'? Possibly.

And if dictators aren't the answer and these people will simply never accept democracy, I'm not too sure what the answer is.

There is also an argument that you leave the entire region to become what it will become and then deal with whoever emerges. If ISIS had been successful in completing their caliphate complete with oil revenues to keep them going, would they have turned down the West's offer of peace provided they kept themselves to themselves? Especially if the alternative was that we bombed their oil production and themselves out of existence? Personally, I doubt it.

[Ash]

Isn't the problem that just when things start to get really messy in these conflicts, the west loses its nerve, in large part because of political pressure back home imposed by 'progressives' and squeamish anti-war movements. Like when Obama talked about the 'red line' of Assad using chemical weapons and then pussying out when he did.

First, this ignores the role of the west in fomenting the conflicts in the first place. It then assumes the unverified story of Assad using chemical weapons is true while assuming the position of tough guy with stock words like 'pussy' and 'squeamish' to somehow suggest that piling in, all guns blazing on behalf of Islamist terrorists is somehow a good idea.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Interesting parallel I saw someone draw the other day. He suggested the ME may currently be going through its equivalent of The Thirty Years War. I think he meant it as an optimistic point of view, suggesting that a more secular enlightenment-type deal may result eventually.

They've been talking about this being their 30 years war for a decade now. Unfortunately, there are a few areas where the parallels break down:

1. They've been killing each other since the C7th. Reformation to Tr of Westphalia was 130 years. They're already passed 1,300 years.

2. We had national rivalries which were more important than religion once it ended. cf Proddy GB and NL fighting during Charles II's time. And then Louis XIV, meaning his quest for dominance would see GB (from Willy Orange onwards) cut deals with any European power who would help us, irrespective of religion.

3. The growing empires (coupled with the scientific advances) made Europeans feel secure as top dogs. Our Muslim friends know they are seriously behind the west, and like poor people everywhere, turn to religious tribalism to make themselves feel better (cf what's happening in India under Modi with the poor Hindus attacking Muslims and the cow vigilantes etc.) I may be poor, but I can kick this sunni/shia to make me feel superior to him.

4. The Reformation, by challenging the fundamental tenets of our 1,000 year old belief structure, paved the way for the Enlightenment. The French philosophes may have been nominally Catholic, but read between the lines in the Encyclopedie and you can see the attack on established religion.

The Enlightenment were Deists who believed in natural religion - working it out for themselves - not in revealed religion where God uses an intermediary to tell us what to do. As the very basis of all Islamic belief is revealed religion (hence the clamp down of the natural religion aspects of Sufism), I can't see an Islamic enlightenment coming.

Basically, it can't be the 30 years war as they haven't had a Reformation yet. We need that first - to challenge the absolutism of the Koran. Then we can have a 3 way war between the Reformed Muzzies, the Sunnis and Shias, a bit like our civil war had the non-conformists fighting both Catholics and Anglicans.

That's just my take, though.

[Ash]

This 'hard man' line gets trotted out regularly and rather ignores the fact that these sort of quasi-socialist, kleptocratic, 'hard-man' dictators like Mubarak and Assad are actually shït at running their countries. They give the appearance of keeping the lid on, but actually balls things up to the extent of them becoming backwards, rat poor and basically forming a wonderful breeding ground for resentful hard-line islamists.

Libya was doing pretty well under the previous guy though. Just smashing countries up and hoping that the various Islamist factions who scrabble for power will be any better is, by now, just repetition of madness.

[Sir C]

First, this ignores the role of the west in fomenting the conflicts in the first place. It then assumes the unverified story of Assad using chemical weapons is true while assuming the position of tough guy with stock words like 'pussy' and 'squeamish' to somehow suggest that piling in, all guns blazing on behalf of Islamist terrorists is somehow a good idea.

Nice to see you back, j. #it'sallourtfault.

(Can you have an apostrophe in a hashtag? Who makes the rules anyway?)

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

We don't know what is happening in Al-Queda-held areas because these people, y'know, tend to chop journalists heads off, so we rely on 'tweets' and 'doctors' which are assumed to be geniune. I suspect they are from the same PR sources funded by Washington and Westminster which have been providing the same drip-drip of propaganda for the last five years.


Some of it's genuine, Ash.

There was a great report a few weeks back on R4's From Our Own Correspondent. The Beeb journo says he can't go to Aleppo cos of the decapitations.

But he was in London where for the first time ever, using internet apps, a top GB surgeon took some surgeons in Aleppo through an operation to repair a man's jaw and save his life.

So don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Ash]

Nice to see you back, j. #it'sallourtfault.

(Can you have an apostrophe in a hashtag? Who makes the rules anyway?)

Not our fault, not your fault, not my fault. When I say 'west' I don't mean you and me I refer to the neo-cons and lib-hawks that make these policies. The elite. The so-called experts whose wisdom we are supposed to defer to on questions of our own national sovereignty, and everybody elses.

[Sir C]

Not our fault, not your fault, not my fault. When I say 'west' I don't mean you and me I refer to the neo-cons and lib-hawks that make these policies. The elite. The so-called experts whose wisdom we are supposed to defer to on questions of our own national sovereignty, and everybody elses.

Lordy, a, have you been reading The G? You've picked up all the lingo, dude. DOES THIS MEAN YOU'RE ONE OF THEY ALT-RIGHT NAZIS?

Seriously though, this does all sound a bit global conspiracy. In truth, isn't it more like a bit of a balls up all round?

[Ash]

Some of it's genuine, Ash.

There was a great report a few weeks back on R4's From Our Own Correspondent. The Beeb journo says he can't go to Aleppo cos of the decapitations.

But he was in London where for the first time ever, using internet apps, a top GB surgeon took some surgeons in Aleppo through an operation to repair a man's jaw and save his life.

So don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I'm not automatically discounting all stories. Just being sceptical and opposed to attempts to use real or fake atrocity porn to whip up fervour for deeper involvement.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

This 'hard man' line gets trotted out regularly and rather ignores the fact that these sort of quasi-socialist, kleptocratic, 'hard-man' dictators like Mubarak and Assad are actually shït at running their countries. They give the appearance of keeping the lid on, but actually balls things up to the extent of them becoming backwards, rat poor and basically forming a wonderful breeding ground for resentful hard-line islamists.

As I said, the only peaceful time in Baghdad in the last 1,300 years was when GB ruled it between the wars under the League of Nations mandate. Because we above the sectarian conflict and put a stop to it.

Wouldn't work nowadays cos of this new-fangled Islamism. But having a colonial ruler who doesn't represent and support his own ethnic group does seem to make things better.

Maybe if we said we'd colonise them again, but wouldn't steal any oil this time, it might work, but I think that the Jihadis wouldn't agree to it.

I honestly can't see a solution, with or without the west.

Though I think the point is that while they won't let us come back, recolonise the place and try and run it well for them, some Baathist hard-man is better than Isis. A bit like Sun-Saharan Africa (outside Botswana which actually works) them locals just aren't very good at running countries, especially where our lines in the sand have created a country full of groups that hate each other.

The fact that they've turned to Jihadism to make them feel better about being poor (cos God loves us more than you even though he doesn't give us money for a nice life) means it's ****ed for the foreseeable future.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

I'm not automatically discounting all stories. Just being sceptical and opposed to attempts to use real or fake atrocity porn to whip up fervour for deeper involvement.

That's Fairy Nuff.

Personally, I don't see a solution until Islam has a Reformation.

And I can't see that happening while they're poor, jealous of the west and Israel, and need to feel being the truest to the revealed word of Allah (as opposed to challenging it) makes them morally superior to those they are jealous of.

So yes. Leave well alone. But until they have a Reformation, I don't see a solution.

[Ash]

Lordy, a, have you been reading The G? You've picked up all the lingo, dude. DOES THIS MEAN YOU'RE ONE OF THEY ALT-RIGHT NAZIS?

Seriously though, this does all sound a bit global conspiracy. In truth, isn't it more like a bit of a balls up all round?

I don't believe that an awareness of the US foreign policy establishment makes one a 'global conspiracist'. Other than in the sense of a group of people sitting round a table and agreeing on a policy which they will try to execute. Call that a conspiracy if you like. The neo-cons aren't made up.

[Sir C]

That's Fairy Nuff.

Personally, I don't see a solution until Islam has a Reformation.

And I can't see that happening while they're poor, jealous of the west and Israel, and need to feel being the truest to the revealed word of Allah (as opposed to challenging it) makes them morally superior to those they are jealous of.

So yes. Leave well alone. But until they have a Reformation, I don't see a solution.

The real doodoo will hit the fan when, in ten years time, there is little demand for oil any more from the motor industry. Then they really will be skint. And angry.

[eastgermanautos]

The usual one-sided reporting of unverified claims, which even if true, only ever seem to be about offenses committed by forces aligned to one side (the Syrian government) in the battle for East Aleppo, with the aim of raising the clamour for somethingmustbedonery in support of the 'rebels' (new name for Al-Queda).

We don't know what is happening in Al-Queda-held areas because these people, y'know, tend to chop journalists heads off, so we rely on 'tweets' and 'doctors' which are assumed to be geniune. I suspect they are from the same PR sources funded by Washington and Westminster which have been providing the same drip-drip of propaganda for the last five years.

http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/british-government-funded-outlet-offered-us-journalist-17000-month-produce

Like the story of protest singer Ibrahim Qashoush, reported by BBC, CNN, Guardian, Telegraph, to have been brutally murdered by the 'regime', with his vocal chords cut out, who turns up alive and well in Spain. #fakenews

http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/syria-civil-war

The West *is* intervening in the conflict in Syria, and the conflict exists because the West started the civil war in the first place (or massively helped it along) with the familiar aim of regime change. And with the familiar outcome which as usual is being blamed on other sides and dutifully reported as such in the usual places.

I love the way you say, "clamour." The only thing I would say is that this is a very long way from the English effrontery of the 19th century. And a very nice effrontery it was too.

[eastgermanautos]

I love the way you say, "clamour." The only thing I would say is that this is a very long way from the English effrontery of the 19th century. And a very nice effrontery it was too.

Personally I like what we've done up in Saudi Arabia. And let's not forget Qatar. Nice little country they've got there.

[World's End Stella]

Not our fault, not your fault, not my fault. When I say 'west' I don't mean you and me I refer to the neo-cons and lib-hawks that make these policies. The elite. The so-called experts whose wisdom we are supposed to defer to on questions of our own national sovereignty, and everybody elses.

Just to be clear - you don't think the 'West' has any responsibility for Shias wanting to kill Sunnis and Sunnis wanting to kill Shias, right?

[Ash]

Just to be clear - you don't think the 'West' has any responsibility for Shias wanting to kill Sunnis and Sunnis wanting to kill Shias, right?

I'm not saying there aren't bitter and violent divisions within the region. However these are exploited, just as they have been through history, by outside forces. Canadian independent journalist Eve Bartlett who has been to Syria several times reports that the country is not sectarian as reported, and that Aleppo is overwhelmingly Sunni and is with the government.

https://youtu.be/g1VNQGsiP8M?t=4m27s

[Ash]

Isn't the problem that just when things start to get really messy in these conflicts, the west loses its nerve, in large part because of political pressure back home imposed by 'progressives' and squeamish anti-war movements. Like when Obama talked about the 'red line' of Assad using chemical weapons and then pussying out when he did.

Some detail on the Sarin attack, from an ex-CIA analyst, published on the site of the guy who broke the Iran-Contra story. You won't have read how a Turkish MP proved in his parliament how Sarin gas was shipped to ISIS in Turkey, bacause apart from the Belfast Telegraph, no English language outlet reported the story. Obama 'pussied out' as you put it, because he doubted that Assad was responsible, and after Russia persuaded Assad to destroy all chemical weapons (this happened and Syria now has no chemical weapons).

https://consortiumnews.com/2016/12/11/the-syrian-sarin-false-flag-lesson/

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/sarin-gas-materials-sent-to-isis-from-turkey-claims-mp-eren-erdem-34286662.html

[redgunamo]

.. independent journalist ..

https://youtu.be/g1VNQGsiP8M?t=4m27s

I've been to Syria loads of times too; how come you don't believe *me*? :-(

[Lady Henry AKA The African Queen]

Some detail on the Sarin attack, from an ex-CIA analyst, published on the site of the guy who broke the Iran-Contra story. You won't have read how a Turkish MP proved in his parliament how Sarin gas was shipped to ISIS in Turkey, bacause apart from the Belfast Telegraph, no English language outlet reported the story. Obama 'pussied out' as you put it, because he doubted that Assad was responsible, and after Russia persuaded Assad to destroy all chemical weapons (this happened and Syria now has no chemical weapons).

https://consortiumnews.com/2016/12/11/the-syrian-sarin-false-flag-lesson/

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/sarin-gas-materials-sent-to-isis-from-turkey-claims-mp-eren-erdem-34286662.html

Everything Ash said.
Some of the comments are deeply disturbing and verge on racism veiled in 'analysis'.
To ignore the reasons for the conflicts - and why it continues to be funded/ supported - and just discuss along the lines of 'they are warmongering batbarians so let's colonize/ leave them to die' is the Sun and Daily Mail at their best.

Not sure why I expected better reasoned debate on a football forum.
I guess the assumption we Gooners are more cerebral than the rest must flounder with our team's performance last night.

[Lady Henry AKA The African Queen]

Tatq
No. The continuous meddling has never been with the *proper* intentions to help or bring about any benefits for locals.
The west has only ever done anything for its personal benefit (including blind support for Israel) so its little wonder they leave greater devastation as they never intended to help 'fix' anything.

I could go on but Ash has done a far better job.

[redgunamo]

Everything Ash said.
Some of the comments are deeply disturbing and verge on racism veiled in 'analysis'.
To ignore the reasons for the conflicts - and why it continues to be funded/ supported - and just discuss along the lines of 'they are warmongering batbarians so let's colonize/ leave them to die' is the Sun and Daily Mail at their best.

Not sure why I expected better reasoned debate on a football forum.
I guess the assumption we Gooners are more cerebral than the rest must flounder with our team's performance last night.

It's just an essential indifference, I reckon. If things don't affect us personally, it doesn't really matter what we say or think, does it. It's all just so much banter, in any case. I don't think it's fair to call that unreasonable.

[redgunamo]

Everything Ash said.
Some of the comments are deeply disturbing and verge on racism veiled in 'analysis'.
To ignore the reasons for the conflicts - and why it continues to be funded/ supported - and just discuss along the lines of 'they are warmongering batbarians so let's colonize/ leave them to die' is the Sun and Daily Mail at their best.

Not sure why I expected better reasoned debate on a football forum.
I guess the assumption we Gooners are more cerebral than the rest must flounder with our team's performance last night.

Ash's point, as I understand it, is that *we* are actually a thousand times worse than our adversaries. So, I don't see how that counts as racism.

[Ash]

Ash's point, as I understand it, is that *we* are actually a thousand times worse than our adversaries. So, I don't see how that counts as racism.

I wouldn't have described my point like that. I might have described it the way I did, though.

[redgunamo]

I wouldn't have described my point like that. I might have described it the way I did, though.

No, of course you wouldn't. That's how I have always understood it though. As a positive. For us.

[Ash]

No, of course you wouldn't. That's how I have always understood it though. As a positive. For us.

Look, only sometimes, and it depends who the adversary is, and besides, I don't know if evil can be quantified, can it? What is a single unit of evil called? A Mourinho, perhaps.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Tatq
The west has only ever done anything for its personal benefit

I don't know if you're just talking about the ME, but if not, what about GB's annexation of Benin in 1897?

The reason it was still uncolonised after the carve up resulting from the Berlin Africa Conference of 1885, was because it was economically worthless.

However, the King owned all his subjects (barring the aristos) as his slaves, and kept selling them to Arab slave traders and crucifying them for human sacrifice to appease the gods.

GB kept asking him to stop during the 1890s and he kept agreeing and then reneging. So when we tried again and he killed a couple of our officials, we invaded and annexed the place, despite the fact we'd now have to pay to administer this colony which would give us nothing.

Yes, we did nick the gorgeous bronzes (now in the British Museum and well worth a trip just to see those) but this wasn't the reason why we invaded.

So this wasn't for GB's personal benefit. (And I'm an anti-imperialist. It's just history isn't always black and white, it's mostly shades of grey.) It was to stop slavery and human sacrificial crucifixion. So even though these Beninis didn't have the vote under GB, they were no longer slaves, weren't flogged to Arabs and weren't nailed up to crosses on the whim of the king to appease the gods. Instead they lived as peasants under GB's rule of law.

As this cost us both blood and treasure, I don't think you can accuse GB of annexing the place for its own gain.

Here's a picture of a crucifixion there:

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-woman-crucified-at-benin-77357340.html?pv=1&stamp=2&imageid=F6D113AC-152E-4761-92D4-000115DDC06F&p=173514&n=0&orientation=0&pn=1&searchtype=0&IsFromSearch=1&srch=foo%3Dbar%26st%3D0%26sortby%3D2%26qt%3DWoman% 2520Crucified%2520at%2520Benin%26qt_raw%3DWoman%25 20Crucified%2520at%2520Benin%26qn%3D%26lic%3D3%26m r%3D0%26pr%3D0%26aoa%3D1%26creative%3D%26videos%3D %26nu%3D%26ccc%3D%26bespoke%3D%26apalib%3D%26ag%3D 0%26hc%3D0%26et%3D0x000000000000000000000%26vp%3D0 %26loc%3D0%26ot%3D0%26imgt%3D0%26dtfr%3D%26dtto%3D %26size%3D0xFF%26blackwhite%3D%26cutout%3D%26archi ve%3D1%26name%3D%26groupid%3D%26pseudoid%3D%26user id%3D%26id%3D%26a%3D%26xstx%3D0%26cbstore%3D1%26re sultview%3DsortbyPopular%26lightbox%3D%26gname%3D% 26gtype%3D%26apalic%3D%26tbar%3D1%26pc%3D%26simid% 3D%26cap%3D1%26customgeoip%3D%26vd%3D0%26cid%3D%26 pe%3D%26so%3D%26saveQry%3D%26editorial%3D1%26t%3D0 %26edoptin%3D