Have you discussed the Saffer student, science and witchcraft yet?

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/science-must-fall-time-decolonise-science/

She said they need to decol science because the fundamental laws of physics are racist cos they were discovered by white men.

She actually says Newton is wrong because he can't explain what happens in some village where they can summon up lightening using "you call it black magic, we call it witchcraft."

A white Saffer (off camera) says no you can't and all hell breaks lose. He is forced to apologise for saying that you can't summon up lightening on pain of expulsion.

It's part of the #Rhodesmustfall and #Feesmustfall. This is #ScienceMustFall. (You can imagine the responses on the twitter page.)

They want to replace western science with African stuff.

In 50 years, when Indians and Chinese are winning loads of Nobels and they aren't, they'll still be blaming colonialism for all their problems.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Oh, btw, I've always been an anti-imperialist leftie. But one thing I found out at the OU was that 3 out of every 4 Africans were slaves, and it had always been like that.

They had always had a pre-feudal, slave-based socio-econ system. There were only two free wage labour jobs, leather tanning and metal work. Everything else was done by slaves. So wars were fought to capture PoWs as slaves, not to gain land. As slave ownership equated wealth, not land ownership as in feudal societies.

This had always been the case - before the Euro trade started in the C16th, before the Arab trade started in the C8th.

So us stopping slavery is a bit of a problem for lefties like me. Still, at least we murdered 15m Indians in the 1877-8 famine by our free market obsession exporting grain from the famine hit areas and at least we reduced India's share of global GDP from 25% when we arrived to 4% when we left.

But Africa's a bit tricky now I know what they were like before we arrived.

[Burney]

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/10/science-must-fall-time-decolonise-science/

She said they need to decol science because the fundamental laws of physics are racist cos they were discovered by white men.

She actually says Newton is wrong because he can't explain what happens in some village where they can summon up lightening using "you call it black magic, we call it witchcraft."

A white Saffer (off camera) says no you can't and all hell breaks lose. He is forced to apologise for saying that you can't summon up lightening on pain of expulsion.

It's part of the #Rhodesmustfall and #Feesmustfall. This is #ScienceMustFall. (You can imagine the responses on the twitter page.)

They want to replace western science with African stuff.

In 50 years, when Indians and Chinese are winning loads of Nobels and they aren't, they'll still be blaming colonialism for all their problems.

I've seen they've been rioting at their universities and all sorts. They seem determined to ruin their country entirely and make it the same success story that the rest of sub-Saharan Africa is. Ho-hum.

[Sir C]

Oh, btw, I've always been an anti-imperialist leftie. But one thing I found out at the OU was that 3 out of every 4 Africans were slaves, and it had always been like that.

They had always had a pre-feudal, slave-based socio-econ system. There were only two free wage labour jobs, leather tanning and metal work. Everything else was done by slaves. So wars were fought to capture PoWs as slaves, not to gain land. As slave ownership equated wealth, not land ownership as in feudal societies.

This had always been the case - before the Euro trade started in the C16th, before the Arab trade started in the C8th.

So us stopping slavery is a bit of a problem for lefties like me. Still, at least we murdered 15m Indians in the 1877-8 famine by our free market obsession exporting grain from the famine hit areas and at least we reduced India's share of global GDP from 25% when we arrived to 4% when we left.

But Africa's a bit tricky now I know what they were like before we arrived.

I'm going to be frank with you here g. You seem to me to be much too reasoned, balanced and intelligent - in short, capable of cogent thought - to actually be a lefty. I think you think you're a lefty, because culturally you've been persuaded that that is what you must be, but unfortunately for you, your brain does strange, anti-lefty things like examining evidence and drawing conclusions based on fact rather than mindless dogma.

A subscription to the Telegraph could be enough to bring you firmly into the warmth of the goodies.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

I'm going to be frank with you here g. You seem to me to be much too reasoned, balanced and intelligent - in short, capable of cogent thought - to actually be a lefty. I think you think you're a lefty, because culturally you've been persuaded that that is what you must be, but unfortunately for you, your brain does strange, anti-lefty things like examining evidence and drawing conclusions based on fact rather than mindless dogma.

A subscription to the Telegraph could be enough to bring you firmly into the warmth of the goodies.

Look, I know most lefties are stupid, and that their PC views are actually making things worse in many cases. {Eg shouting "racist" at genuine concerns has led to the rise of the far right across the continent.}

I know that whenever true socialism has been tried (eg USSR, Venezuela, Cuba etc} it has made things worse for the people they claim to help. And that consequently, human nature may mean we will never succeed.

But there are two reasons why I'll always be a lefty. One is that its heart is in the right place. Gandhi may have had warped views about asking the Japs politely to stop if they had invaded, but what he stood for - bringing down the greatest empire the world had ever seen using peace and love - is an inspiration to us all.

But secondly, it's that many (indeed most) of the things you now consider to either be essential parts of your conservative outlook or acceptable and sensible in the modern world were introduced by lefties.

By lefty here, I mean the radicals who were fighting against the power structures to spread power and wealth both downwards and outwards.

Simon de Montford calling a parliament which included members of the 3rd estate, the Commons. That was left wing.

And even the Reformation as Martin Luther's attack on the Catholic power structure must be considered left-wing.

The Whigs who invited over Billy O and consequently gave us the Glorious Rev and Bill of Rights were lefties by my definition. I take it you think a constitutional monarchy with permanent parliaments is a good think?

Cromwell was a lefty and the restored monarchy had less power than before the civil war.

The abolition of the slave trade and the emancipation of the slaves? Lefties by the standard of the day. The Great Reform Act and subsequent reforms? Even the Peelites who split the Tories over Corn Law repeal and free trade were basically lefties - this is why the rump fused with the Whigs to form the Liberal party. Factory Acts and trade unions. The People's Budget with pensions, health and unemployment insurance, and the consequent Parliament Act taking away the right of the Lords to veto the will of the people.

And then Labour stuff like an NHS, divorce, gay lib, free speech, etc etc.

I'd imagine you'd support all those things and would consider some or many of them essential parts of your conservative world view. And rightly so.

So in short, without lefties, we'd have had none of those things. We'd still be living with no representation under an autocratic monarch who ruled by dictat, using cruel and unusual punishments, with no free speech and the Church and the state keeping you down.

That is why I'm a lefty, C.

{Though I'm much closer to being a radical whig than I am to the modern PC identity-politics victimhood brigade. I can't stand that lot.}

[TheCurly]

Look, I know most lefties are stupid, and that their PC views are actually making things worse in many cases. {Eg shouting "racist" at genuine concerns has led to the rise of the far right across the continent.}

I know that whenever true socialism has been tried (eg USSR, Venezuela, Cuba etc} it has made things worse for the people they claim to help. And that consequently, human nature may mean we will never succeed.

But there are two reasons why I'll always be a lefty. One is that its heart is in the right place. Gandhi may have had warped views about asking the Japs politely to stop if they had invaded, but what he stood for - bringing down the greatest empire the world had ever seen using peace and love - is an inspiration to us all.

But secondly, it's that many (indeed most) of the things you now consider to either be essential parts of your conservative outlook or acceptable and sensible in the modern world were introduced by lefties.

By lefty here, I mean the radicals who were fighting against the power structures to spread power and wealth both downwards and outwards.

Simon de Montford calling a parliament which included members of the 3rd estate, the Commons. That was left wing.

And even the Reformation as Martin Luther's attack on the Catholic power structure must be considered left-wing.

The Whigs who invited over Billy O and consequently gave us the Glorious Rev and Bill of Rights were lefties by my definition. I take it you think a constitutional monarchy with permanent parliaments is a good think?

Cromwell was a lefty and the restored monarchy had less power than before the civil war.

The abolition of the slave trade and the emancipation of the slaves? Lefties by the standard of the day. The Great Reform Act and subsequent reforms? Even the Peelites who split the Tories over Corn Law repeal and free trade were basically lefties - this is why the rump fused with the Whigs to form the Liberal party. Factory Acts and trade unions. The People's Budget with pensions, health and unemployment insurance, and the consequent Parliament Act taking away the right of the Lords to veto the will of the people.

And then Labour stuff like an NHS, divorce, gay lib, free speech, etc etc.

I'd imagine you'd support all those things and would consider some or many of them essential parts of your conservative world view. And rightly so.

So in short, without lefties, we'd have had none of those things. We'd still be living with no representation under an autocratic monarch who ruled by dictat, using cruel and unusual punishments, with no free speech and the Church and the state keeping you down.

That is why I'm a lefty, C.

{Though I'm much closer to being a radical whig than I am to the modern PC identity-politics victimhood brigade. I can't stand that lot.}

A small point.The countries you mention were not "true socialist" countries.They were Leninist/Stalinist/Marxist.I very much doubt any country,anywhere have attempted "true socialism".Maybe 13 blokes in Judea a while back.

[Sir C]

We're in danger of arguing semantics here, I'm afraid. Most of us are actually pretty centrist at the place in time in which we find ourselves. Common sense and experience has brought the vast majority to a period of social and economic (small l) liberalism. What I would term 'lefties' now are the lunatic fringe of extreme PC, identity politics, automatic presumption that, in any situation, the West/UK/USA is in the wrong.

[Burney]

Look, I know most lefties are stupid, and that their PC views are actually making things worse in many cases. {Eg shouting "racist" at genuine concerns has led to the rise of the far right across the continent.}

I know that whenever true socialism has been tried (eg USSR, Venezuela, Cuba etc} it has made things worse for the people they claim to help. And that consequently, human nature may mean we will never succeed.

But there are two reasons why I'll always be a lefty. One is that its heart is in the right place. Gandhi may have had warped views about asking the Japs politely to stop if they had invaded, but what he stood for - bringing down the greatest empire the world had ever seen using peace and love - is an inspiration to us all.

But secondly, it's that many (indeed most) of the things you now consider to either be essential parts of your conservative outlook or acceptable and sensible in the modern world were introduced by lefties.

By lefty here, I mean the radicals who were fighting against the power structures to spread power and wealth both downwards and outwards.

Simon de Montford calling a parliament which included members of the 3rd estate, the Commons. That was left wing.

And even the Reformation as Martin Luther's attack on the Catholic power structure must be considered left-wing.

The Whigs who invited over Billy O and consequently gave us the Glorious Rev and Bill of Rights were lefties by my definition. I take it you think a constitutional monarchy with permanent parliaments is a good think?

Cromwell was a lefty and the restored monarchy had less power than before the civil war.

The abolition of the slave trade and the emancipation of the slaves? Lefties by the standard of the day. The Great Reform Act and subsequent reforms? Even the Peelites who split the Tories over Corn Law repeal and free trade were basically lefties - this is why the rump fused with the Whigs to form the Liberal party. Factory Acts and trade unions. The People's Budget with pensions, health and unemployment insurance, and the consequent Parliament Act taking away the right of the Lords to veto the will of the people.

And then Labour stuff like an NHS, divorce, gay lib, free speech, etc etc.

I'd imagine you'd support all those things and would consider some or many of them essential parts of your conservative world view. And rightly so.

So in short, without lefties, we'd have had none of those things. We'd still be living with no representation under an autocratic monarch who ruled by dictat, using cruel and unusual punishments, with no free speech and the Church and the state keeping you down.

That is why I'm a lefty, C.

{Though I'm much closer to being a radical whig than I am to the modern PC identity-politics victimhood brigade. I can't stand that lot.}

Cromwell, Simon De Montfort and Martin Luther lefties? :hehe: One was landed gentry who crushed the diggers, another was an actual Baron with an actual castle and the last was a virulent anti-semite who vehemently opposed the Peasants War. Lefties, indeed! Mind you, the anti-semitism fits, I suppose.

Simply claiming people you happen to like as lefties doesn't justify leftism, I'm afraid.

[Burney]

A small point.The countries you mention were not "true socialist" countries.They were Leninist/Stalinist/Marxist.I very much doubt any country,anywhere have attempted "true socialism".Maybe 13 blokes in Judea a while back.

Thing is, c, they all started out with the intention of being true socialist countries, but soon found out that there's no way of convincing everyone to go along with socialism without the use of imprisonment, torture and murder because human nature won't allow it. Claiming it's a good idea in principle when it always fails in practice is like continuing to believe in a medical procedure even though it keeps killing the patient.

[TheCurly]

[QUOTE=Burney;4133517]Thing is, c, they all started out with the intention of being true socialist countries, but soon found out that there's no way of convincing everyone to go along with socialism without the use of imprisonment, torture and murder because human nature won't allow it. Claiming it's a good idea in principle when it always fails in practice is like continuing to believe in a medical procedure even though it keeps killing the patient.[/QUO

Fully agreed

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

We're in danger of arguing semantics here, I'm afraid. Most of us are actually pretty centrist at the place in time in which we find ourselves. Common sense and experience has brought the vast majority to a period of social and economic (small l) liberalism. What I would term 'lefties' now are the lunatic fringe of extreme PC, identity politics, automatic presumption that, in any situation, the West/UK/USA is in the wrong.

Yeah. It is basically all semantics at this point. Still, at least you know what I mean by lefty, and the sort of lefty I think I am. It's more in opposition to (small and large C) conservatives who would have made any of the changes listed above.

As such, Cameron's Gay Marriage was left-wing, though the rest of his rule clearly wasn't. Conversely, I think that many self-called lefties who believe in divisive identity politics aren't really left-wing, in the way that Stalin's autocracy wasn't.

I'm not saying Black History Month, for example, is the equivalent of the Gulags and show trials, though interestingly Seamus Milne is a self-declared Stalinist.

[Ganpati's Goonerz--AFC's Aboriginal Fertility Cult]

Thing is, c, they all started out with the intention of being true socialist countries, but soon found out that there's no way of convincing everyone to go along with socialism without the use of imprisonment, torture and murder because human nature won't allow it. Claiming it's a good idea in principle when it always fails in practice is like continuing to believe in a medical procedure even though it keeps killing the patient.

I'm afraid I basically agree with all of that.

It's just most on my side wish there was a way it could be made to work -in part because we don't want to believe humanity is like that.

One thing, though. AJP Taylor claims that GB's "War Socialism" of 1940-5 was the most united the country's ever been. This is an example of socialism working in practice. Even the coercion such as conscription and rights restrictions had the overwhelming support of the population.

So perhaps we on the left should be trying to organise a major global conflict to see our dream of a British socialist utopia realised.