So it turns out Saudia Arabia is actually just full of progressive, artsy types

[Monty92]

Why on earth didn't they tell us sooner?

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/video/2016/oct/18/saudi-arabian-artists-confront-islamophobia-on-us-road-trip-video

[Sir C]

Why on earth didn't they tell us sooner?

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/video/2016/oct/18/saudi-arabian-artists-confront-islamophobia-on-us-road-trip-video

Next week, the women and the gays have their say.

[TheCurly]

Why on earth didn't they tell us sooner?

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/video/2016/oct/18/saudi-arabian-artists-confront-islamophobia-on-us-road-trip-video

Actually aren't Arabs renowned for their arts? We did some famous Arabey poetry in school.

[Burney]

Why on earth didn't they tell us sooner?

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/video/2016/oct/18/saudi-arabian-artists-confront-islamophobia-on-us-road-trip-video

I would pïss my pants laughing if they turned out to be a terrorist cell hiding in plain sight :hehe:

[Sir C]

Actually aren't Arabs renowned for their arts? We did some famous Arabey poetry in school.

Their art is shíte, c. All geometric patterns. Not a sign of a títty anywhere, ffs.

[Burney]

Actually aren't Arabs renowned for their arts? We did some famous Arabey poetry in school.

Not Saudi Arabs, c. They were basically shïtkicking, camel-bothering desert nomads until Lawrence turned up.

[TheCurly]

Not Saudi Arabs, c. They were basically shïtkicking, camel-bothering desert nomads until Lawrence turned up.

Madey up country you see.Like Tangyikystanland or Norway.

[Burney]

Madey up country you see.Like Tangyikystanland or Norway.

:nod: Or Ireland.

[TheCurly]

:nod: Or Ireland.

Watch it,pal

[Mo Britain less Europe]

Actually my employers have set up a company to sell contemporary Iranian art. Wonder what that is? A fusion or a fission of styles?

[TheCurly]

Actually my employers have set up a company to sell contemporary Iranian art. Wonder what that is? A fusion or a fission of styles?

That's yer Persian Mo,different breed altogether

[Burney]

Actually my employers have set up a company to sell contemporary Iranian art. Wonder what that is? A fusion or a fission of styles?

Yes, but of course Iranians are very much not arabs.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

Not at all. An ancient and venerable culture. But the Arabs imposed their religion on them well over a thousand years ago (I blame the King of Ethiopia) and that hasn't done wonders for their culture methinks.

[Lar d'Arse]

OK Burney, I'll bite.

The only makey uppey bit about Ireland is the bit where the boundary commission fairly arbitrarily decided that there should be a border around six of the 32 counties that should remain in the UK. The reasons for the fact that these six counties had sizeable communities that wanted to remain part of Britain are well documented and were also somewhat makey uppey in first place.

Ironic indeed that the majority of this community voted to remain in the EU but is being exited against it's will by the votes of others within Britain. The troubled history of the island of Ireland would have taken a very different turn had the same attitude been taken when Home Rule and then Independence was being sought or indeed if any plebiscite had ever been conducted within the 32 counties of Ireland as to what the majority on the island wanted in that regard.

[Ash]

OK Burney, I'll bite.

The only makey uppey bit about Ireland is the bit where the boundary commission fairly arbitrarily decided that there should be a border around six of the 32 counties that should remain in the UK. The reasons for the fact that these six counties had sizeable communities that wanted to remain part of Britain are well documented and were also somewhat makey uppey in first place.

Ironic indeed that the majority of this community voted to remain in the EU but is being exited against it's will by the votes of others within Britain. The troubled history of the island of Ireland would have taken a very different turn had the same attitude been taken when Home Rule and then Independence was being sought or indeed if any plebiscite had ever been conducted within the 32 counties of Ireland as to what the majority on the island wanted in that regard.

I think there's a chance that a united Ireland could come about as a consequence of Brexit. If Brexit actually happens.

And of course Burnley's just being a WUM, as is his way.

[Lar d'Arse]

I think there's a chance that a united Ireland could come about as a consequence of Brexit. If Brexit actually happens.

And of course Burnley's just being a WUM, as is his way.

I know he was just wumming - I did acknowledge I was biting!

Ironic also the fact that England and Wales wanting to keep furriners out could also lead to them causing furriners like the Scots and the Northern Irish to leave the United Kingdom. Which may be ultimately what is at play here. And maybe keeping Scots and Norn Irons out of England is exactly what the English want. Indeed they may prefer to be rid of the Welsh also but constitutionally that may be a bit trickier.

[Ash]

I know he was just wumming - I did acknowledge I was biting!

Ironic also the fact that England and Wales wanting to keep furriners out could also lead to them causing furriners like the Scots and the Northern Irish to leave the United Kingdom. Which may be ultimately what is at play here. And maybe keeping Scots and Norn Irons out of England is exactly what the English want. Indeed they may prefer to be rid of the Welsh also but constitutionally that may be a bit trickier.

I think the 'keeping furriners out' bit is being overplayed by those who wish to cast their opponents as savages. Regulating the flow of imported labour according to resources and infrastructure might be another way of looking at the management of borders. And of course, the EU itself only allows freedom of movement within the EU, and not really into it, in most cases, so it doesn't quite have the high ground it likes to claim.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

To be fair to the Britishers they've never tried to keep the citizens of the Republic out. Considering how much hatred there is there its amazing how many millions choose to live in the House of War. And they are allowed to vote and stand for election. Perhaps much of that hatred is one-sdied?

[Lar d'Arse]

Apologies folks - this is long.

My message was not entirely serious and referencing the hard Brexit message from May at the Tory conference and the taking back control sloganistas from before the vote and since.

I don't think the EU has any moral high ground. Certainly the individual countries within it don't. Whether that relates to controlling immigration, borders, finance, trade, international social policy or whatever.

But Ash - have you not hit on one of the big inconsistencies about the whole regulating the flow of labour thing? Leaving the EU gives Britain back control over whether other EU citizens (and maybe a few Norwegians and Swiss etc) can enter the UK but it doesn't change anything about immigration from outside the EU and as I understand it as many people enter the UK annually from outside the EU as from within it. I can't remember the precise stats but the numbers were within 5,000 of each other from memory. So leaving the EU only solves half a problem, if indeed this was a problem in the first place.

And Mo the concept of dislike between the Irish and the English is always way overstated in my mind. There will always be haters on the margin and there is a bit of a running joke which I think runs both directions about the lengthy period during which Ireland was largely controlled and governed from Britain.

But like elsewhere in the World Britain did a lot of good in Ireland for the most part. It did some bad and to be fair Britain did what was best for Britain and given it was in power this was hardly any surprise.

In terms of the Common Travel Area Irish people have assuredly sought work and new lives in England to a far greater extent than the other direction although the traffic isn't all one way. It is however trite to say that we can go back to what it was like before either country joined the EU because we can't. Ireland was not a member of the EU before GB joined. It will however remain a member of the EU after Britain leaves with all the freedom of movement for EU workers that this entails.

And just to conclude, Britain also made mistakes (mostly honestly although some were pretty badly conceived) when it was the controlling power in Ireland and Ireland as an island is still paying for some of those mistakes. We aren't exactly unique in this though. My earlier posts were pointing to the ironies of some of those mistakes when viewed in the light of Brexit. And the irony of Britain in many ways being a union of (admittedly fewer) disparate nations voting to leave a union (admittedly far larger in number) of disparate nations.

This is not me trying to score points, or suggesting that I dislike Britain for these or any other reasons. In the same way as I like most people I meet in Ireland (and dislike quite a number of others) I like most of the people I meet from England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and I may even positively dislike the remainder. There are parts of Ireland I love and bits I can't say I have any liking for. Ditto the UK. The same goes for Germany, France, Spain, Italy and all the other countries in the EU I have been fortunate enough to visit and yes, maybe even Belgium.

[Sir C]

That is a beautifully reasoned, generously spirited, thought-provoking and erudite post Lar; perhaps one should expect nothing less from a chap of your intelligence and obvious capacity for empathy, yet it remains a rare example of sense and decency in the sewer that is the internet. Thank you for taking the time and pains to share it with us.

[Burney]

OK Burney, I'll bite.

The only makey uppey bit about Ireland is the bit where the boundary commission fairly arbitrarily decided that there should be a border around six of the 32 counties that should remain in the UK. The reasons for the fact that these six counties had sizeable communities that wanted to remain part of Britain are well documented and were also somewhat makey uppey in first place.

Ironic indeed that the majority of this community voted to remain in the EU but is being exited against it's will by the votes of others within Britain. The troubled history of the island of Ireland would have taken a very different turn had the same attitude been taken when Home Rule and then Independence was being sought or indeed if any plebiscite had ever been conducted within the 32 counties of Ireland as to what the majority on the island wanted in that regard.

Actually, all that comment was was a lighthearted reference to the fact that there is no such political entity as 'Ireland' (to mean the actual island of Ireland) and that, in the context of what c was saying, yes, it is entirely makey-uppy, since it is a purely imagined entity. Indeed, the great irony is that 'Ireland' has only ever existed as a unified political entity under British rule.

[Burney]

I think there's a chance that a united Ireland could come about as a consequence of Brexit. If Brexit actually happens.

And of course Burnley's just being a WUM, as is his way.


Were it to happen, united Ireland would be an absolutely fantastic consequence of Brexit. It would take a major cost away from the UK (or whatever we'd be then) and give it to Ireland, while also healing the major rift in Anglo-Irish relations.
However, I'm not holding my breath because history.

[redgunamo]

That is a beautifully reasoned, generously spirited, thought-provoking and erudite post Lar; perhaps one should expect nothing less from a chap of your intelligence and obvious capacity for empathy, yet it remains a rare example of sense and decency in the sewer that is the internet. Thank you for taking the time and pains to share it with us.

....Plus one.

[Ash]

....Plus one.

And another.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

Good post Lars. Don't agree with everything but agree with a lot of it and it is a reasoned argument not the bunch of insults and jibes which one often gets in places such as this.

There is an irony, along the lines of what you pointed out about leaving the EU. Having fought to have its independence to gain (or regain) sovereignty from UK - why on Earth is Ireland so keen to give it up to the unelected bunch who run the EU? Instead of one boss - and that would have changed if Home Rule had been given before the First Worls War, I blame the Kaiser for what happened - you now have several. You're in a Union which is run by France and Germany for their benefit, politically, and in which an elite, aristocratic, unelected, oligarchic executive (yes, a handful of them may be Irish) benefits in an outlandish manner from the decisions they take even if everyone else suffers.

UK and Ireland share a language, a whole bunch of culture, and have been through a lot together. Together they would make the core of a better European organisation. To range yourselves against the Auld Enemy (as hard-liners do) for the sake of what happened 100 years ago is plain stupid and, I suspect, self-serving for the peddlers of violence and their heirs and successors.

[Burney]

Good post Lars. Don't agree with everything but agree with a lot of it and it is a reasoned argument not the bunch of insults and jibes which one often gets in places such as this.

There is an irony, along the lines of what you pointed out about leaving the EU. Having fought to have its independence to gain (or regain) sovereignty from UK - why on Earth is Ireland so keen to give it up to the unelected bunch who run the EU? Instead of one boss - and that would have changed if Home Rule had been given before the First Worls War, I blame the Kaiser for what happened - you now have several. You're in a Union which is run by France and Germany for their benefit, politically, and in which an elite, aristocratic, unelected, oligarchic executive (yes, a handful of them may be Irish) benefits in an outlandish manner from the decisions they take even if everyone else suffers.

UK and Ireland share a language, a whole bunch of culture, and have been through a lot together. Together they would make the core of a better European organisation. To range yourselves against the Auld Enemy (as hard-liners do) for the sake of what happened 100 years ago is plain stupid and, I suspect, self-serving for the peddlers of violence and their heirs and successors.

You oughtn't to blame the Kaiser, you ought to blame the leaders of the Easter Rising. Many Irish historians and politicians regard the Rising as the single most disastrous event to have befallen Ireland in the 20th century. I would tend to agree.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

You oughtn't to blame the Kaiser, you ought to blame the leaders of the Easter Rising. Many Irish historians and politicians regard the Rising as the single most disastrous event to have befallen Ireland in the 20th century. I would tend to agree.

Asquith was prepared to give Home Rule until the silly old Kaiser started the war. The leaders of the Easter Rising - w ankers to a man - simply took advantage of the prevarication over Home Rule to accuse UK of perfidy. If Home Rule had gone ahead it would have been far more difficult to rouse the masses and Ireland might well still be in a united kingdom built on looser federal lines today.

[redgunamo]

Not Saudi Arabs, c. They were basically shïtkicking, camel-bothering desert nomads until Lawrence turned up.

They very much all piss in the same pot though. Our studies of the origins of the various breeds of dog through the ages confirmed this.

[Burney]

Asquith was prepared to give Home Rule until the silly old Kaiser started the war. The leaders of the Easter Rising - w ankers to a man - simply took advantage of the prevarication over Home Rule to accuse UK of perfidy. If Home Rule had gone ahead it would have been far more difficult to rouse the masses and Ireland might well still be in a united kingdom built on looser federal lines today.

Thing is, though, the war also meant the best part of the heavily-armed UVF who were ready to resist Home Rule to the death ended up smeared all over Flanders instead, while the officers who mutinied at Curragh when it was suggested they might have to fight them also ended up dead. The irony was that a post-war Ireland would have been a lot easier to grant Home Rule to than a pre-war Ireland. The Easter Rising, however, royally fùcked that up by destroying trust on all sides.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

Thing is, though, the war also meant the best part of the heavily-armed UVF who were ready to resist Home Rule to the death ended up smeared all over Flanders instead, while the officers who mutinied at Curragh when it was suggested they might have to fight them also ended up dead. The irony was that a post-war Ireland would have been a lot easier to grant Home Rule to than a pre-war Ireland. The Easter Rising, however, royally fùcked that up by destroying trust on all sides.

Yes. But a solution could only have been found without violence. There would have been no point putting down a rising by killing lots of people in order to then have to kill lots of people in the future the next time round. A consensus was needed. And you know a lot of southern Irish fought and died in Flanders too, whatever their religious and political convictions.

[Burney]

Yes. But a solution could only have been found without violence. There would have been no point putting down a rising by killing lots of people in order to then have to kill lots of people in the future the next time round. A consensus was needed. And you know a lot of southern Irish fought and died in Flanders too, whatever their religious and political convictions.

Yes. I'm just saying that - if the Rising hadn't happened - Ireland would have been much more ready for Home Rule after the slaughter of 14-18 than it was before the war.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

A missed opportunity.

[Lar d'Arse]

The War was a complicating factor undoubtedly but Berni and Mo you both make the fatal error of assuming Ireland would have been happy with Home Rule.

I completely accept that may well have been the case for the political activists until the turn of the century but it wasn't by the time the Home Rule Bill was passed (the one that was suspended because of the war).

I also accept that even when it was passed the majority of the population on the island would have been very happy with Home Rule although clearly even as early as 1912 the Ulster Covenant showed that regardless of what type of self-governance may have been conceded, Belfast and large swathes of Ulster were terrified of being ruled even only partially from Dublin.

I alluded to mistakes in my longer post. The Rising in 1916 may have been a gravely ill-conceived plan and even the rebel leaders privately (and to some extent publicly) acknowledged this post their surrender. But the biggest mistake of all was made by General Maxwell who I understand may have had some martial law type authority bestowed upon him and determined that the rebel leaders should be killed (Connolly most barbarically). That turned public opinion hugely and meant that Home Rule was never an option post the conclusion of WWI.

[Burney]

The War was a complicating factor undoubtedly but Berni and Mo you both make the fatal error of assuming Ireland would have been happy with Home Rule.

I completely accept that may well have been the case for the political activists until the turn of the century but it wasn't by the time the Home Rule Bill was passed (the one that was suspended because of the war).

I also accept that even when it was passed the majority of the population on the island would have been very happy with Home Rule although clearly even as early as 1912 the Ulster Covenant showed that regardless of what type of self-governance may have been conceded, Belfast and large swathes of Ulster were terrified of being ruled even only partially from Dublin.

I alluded to mistakes in my longer post. The Rising in 1916 may have been a gravely ill-conceived plan and even the rebel leaders privately (and to some extent publicly) acknowledged this post their surrender. But the biggest mistake of all was made by General Maxwell who I understand may have had some martial law type authority bestowed upon him and determined that the rebel leaders should be killed (Connolly most barbarically). That turned public opinion hugely and meant that Home Rule was never an option post the conclusion of WWI.

It was always obvious that - as with other Dominions - Home Rule would have been the harbinger of eventual independence. And it would certainly have been a happier situation than the war, civil war, partition and more war that actually happened. WWI effectively destroyed the UVF as a paramilitary force, meaning that Home Rule would have been much easier to bring in in 1918 than 1914. Also, it's important to remember that the extremists (for that is what they were) of the Easter Rising were a relatively small fraction of the overall republican movement.

As to Maxwell, it's ridiculous to describe his actions as 'barbaric' or even disproportionate. The UK was engaged in a vast global conflict that was killing thousands every day and this was an armed insurrection in the capital city of one of its member countries and threatened to destabilise the war effort. It was by any stretch of the imagination a gross act of treachery that betrayed not only the Crown, but thousands of their fellow Irishmen who were fighting in Flanders. In that context, merely shooting the leaders was actually incredibly lenient. It's fine with hindsight to say it was crass or clumsy, but in the context of the war, where we were shooting our own soldiers just for falling asleep on duty or desertion, killing actual rebels is both understandable and hardly surprising, surely?

[Lar d'Arse]

It may have been understandable given the context of the War but it was still a mistake and the mistake that changed the tide of public opinion towards the rebels. And this was a public many of whom had husbands and sons fighting and being killed in large numbers on the front line. The mistake was acknowledged at the time in Whitehall.

And I didn't describe all the executions as barbaric, only that of Connolly. Perhaps all executions are now seen as barbaric but in the context of the war etc I only described his killing in this manner.

[TheCurly]

It may have been understandable given the context of the War but it was still a mistake and the mistake that changed the tide of public opinion towards the rebels. And this was a public many of whom had husbands and sons fighting and being killed in large numbers on the front line. The mistake was acknowledged at the time in Whitehall.

And I didn't describe all the executions as barbaric, only that of Connolly. Perhaps all executions are now seen as barbaric but in the context of the war etc I only described his killing in this manner.

On the plus side - smashing rebel song he got

[Burney]

It may have been understandable given the context of the War but it was still a mistake and the mistake that changed the tide of public opinion towards the rebels. And this was a public many of whom had husbands and sons fighting and being killed in large numbers on the front line. The mistake was acknowledged at the time in Whitehall.

And I didn't describe all the executions as barbaric, only that of Connolly. Perhaps all executions are now seen as barbaric but in the context of the war etc I only described his killing in this manner.

I don't deny it was a mistake, but it's one of those mistakes that people with 20/20 hindsight wag the finger about as though it were crushingly obvious to the people on the ground at the time when it clearly wasn't. Such finger-wagging annoys me, that's all.

The thing the Irish forget about the Easter Rising is that, while it's a pivotal and massive thing in the Irish consciousness, it is very little known over here now, while at the time to mainland Britain it was barely even a sideshow given what was going on in France and Belgium. The casualty level was equivalent to a pretty good day on the Western Front and for that reason, the British didn't exactly have their best people on it and neither were they really paying that much attention. In such situations, mistakes are inevitable. Equally, I'm always suspicious of the explanation that public opinion turned 180 degrees upon the execution. I've never seen any clear evidence to that effect beyond Yeats' poem, to be honest.

[Lar d'Arse]

OK B

I think you'll acknowledge that the context of my original missive I was not exactly finger-wagging about any mistakes that were made.

I also think we have got a little off point relative to my original point, accepting fully that it is rare any thread doesn't get off point and that a significant percentage end up with you and c talking about food.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

I think the problem is exceptionalism, where everyone believes that what is happening to them or on their patch is the centre of the universe. I agree that after 1916 Home Rule was probably a non-starter. But if it wasn't acceptable before 1914 then frankly the idea that Irish people should have special treatment in the UK in the post-independence is frankly ridiculous. You do not break a relationship only in order top ursue the other party to his homeland to demand rights on the spurious grounds that you were n a relatonship which you no longer want to continue.

[Lar d'Arse]

I think the only part of that post I understood was the first sentence; and the problem is that for most people what is happening to them on their patch is the centre of their universe.

[Burney]

OK B

I think you'll acknowledge that the context of my original missive I was not exactly finger-wagging about any mistakes that were made.

I also think we have got a little off point relative to my original point, accepting fully that it is rare any thread doesn't get off point and that a significant percentage end up with you and c talking about food.

Fair dos. :-)

The uncle's not looking too good, btw. Be lucky if he sees out the year :-(

[Mo Britain less Europe]

I think the only part of that post I understood was the first sentence; and the problem is that for most people what is happening to them on their patch is the centre of their universe.

If there is an insect which holds the key to a cure for cancer but you feed it to your pet canary, it's good for the canary and maybe for you but not for mankind.

The failure to understand the consequences of a victory for the central powers was a huge mistake.

The other point being you cannot hate a country but want to live in it, benefit from it whist telling the locals that you hate what they did 100 years ago. I would never live in a country whose values I reject and I would suggest Irish people who truly believe the events of 1916 make British people in 2016 evil should do the same.

[Sir C]

OK B

I think you'll acknowledge that the context of my original missive I was not exactly finger-wagging about any mistakes that were made.

I also think we have got a little off point relative to my original point, accepting fully that it is rare any thread doesn't get off point and that a significant percentage end up with you and c talking about food.

Well that's charming, I must say. And after I was nice to you, as well.

:harumph:

[Lar d'Arse]

If there is an insect which holds the key to a cure for cancer but you feed it to your pet canary, it's good for the canary and maybe for you but not for mankind.

The failure to understand the consequences of a victory for the central powers was a huge mistake.

The other point being you cannot hate a country but want to live in it, benefit from it whist telling the locals that you hate what they did 100 years ago. I would never live in a country whose values I reject and I would suggest Irish people who truly believe the events of 1916 make British people in 2016 evil should do the same.

I accept there are haters but if you think that is what I have been trying to say then you haven't been reading my posts.

[Lar d'Arse]

Fair dos. :-)

The uncle's not looking too good, btw. Be lucky if he sees out the year :-(

Sorry to hear that b.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

I accept there are haters but if you think that is what I have been trying to say then you haven't been reading my posts.

Nope. I don't that's what YOU are saying. I think that there are plenty people who say that, can't quantify the number.