The team I'd play and the team Wenger will play tonight.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

Me:

Cech

Bellerin Mustafi Koscielny Gibbs


Theo Iwobi Xhaka Ozil Alexis


Perez


Wenger will play Ospina, Monreal, Cazorla and stick Alexis up front again

[redgunamo]

Me:

Cech

Bellerin Mustafi Koscielny Gibbs


Theo Iwobi Xhaka Ozil Alexis


Perez


Wenger will play Ospina, Monreal, Cazorla and stick Alexis up front again

I think we're all desperate to see more of our two new big money signings. Things *are* going alright though, in fairness.

[Sir C]

Me:

Cech

Bellerin Mustafi Koscielny Gibbs


Theo Iwobi Xhaka Ozil Alexis


Perez


Wenger will play Ospina, Monreal, Cazorla and stick Alexis up front again

The 'Alexis as centre forward' experiment, decried as folly by so many, is clearly starting to bear fruit. I imagine that he will be keen to continue with it as it continues to improve with familiarity.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

I think we're all desperate to see more of our two new big money signings. Things *are* going alright though, in fairness.

I'm quite easy about not seeing them if we're doing well. But Xhaka has to play tonight with Coq out and with Girouf missing it's a chance to give Perez a run-out and see how he links with the other small fleet-flooted boys.

If it doesn't work then bring Santi on for him in the second half. It's also about using our squad.

[Burney]

The 'Alexis as centre forward' experiment, decried as folly by so many, is clearly starting to bear fruit. I imagine that he will be keen to continue with it as it continues to improve with familiarity.

Maybe he's got Alexis back on the gear? :cloud9: He was rubbish when it wore off last year.

[redgunamo]

The 'Alexis as centre forward' experiment, decried as folly by so many, is clearly starting to bear fruit. I imagine that he will be keen to continue with it as it continues to improve with familiarity.

The problem for Alexis, and indeed the team, is that if we don't win the league, it will be deemed to have failed. The first thing we, I mean, of course "Arsene Wenger", will do is look for a "proper" striker.

[SWv2]

Me:

Cech

Bellerin Mustafi Koscielny Gibbs


Theo Iwobi Xhaka Ozil Alexis


Perez


Wenger will play Ospina, Monreal, Cazorla and stick Alexis up front again

I must say you do take this whole thing very seriously M.

[Ash]

The problem for Alexis, and indeed the team, is that if we don't win the league, it will be deemed to have failed. The first thing we, I mean, of course "Arsene Wenger", will do is look for a "proper" striker.

It surely won't have failed if he gets 35 goals and we come second to a 110-point Man City.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

I must say you do take this whole thing very seriously M.

Well it is an Arsenal forum. We have a game tonight. Makes more sense to talk about that than lunch or Corbyn to me.

[redgunamo]

It surely won't have failed if he gets 35 goals and we come second to a 110-point Man City.

Oh, of course, we'll win the famous old Not Playing a Proper Striker and Finishing Second Cup, I suppose. I just feel everyone wants more than that, at this stage.

[SWv2]

It surely won't have failed if he gets 35 goals and we come second to a 110-point Man City.

For a club of Arsenal's size not winning the league is failure.

[SWv2]

Well it is an Arsenal forum. We have a game tonight. Makes more sense to talk about that than lunch or Corbyn to me.

I agree on Corbyn, less so lunch.

For the record I would have an additional midfield resource in the side, possibly Elneny.

[Ash]

For a club of Arsenal's size not winning the league is failure.

So you agree with Mourinho? Wenger is a specialist in failure.

[SWv2]

So you agree with Mourinho? Wenger is a specialist in failure.

I would not go that far as I think it is both excessive and silly.

Look, we are a massive club on the domestic scene, a club whose primary aim every season has to be to win the league therefore not winning it is failure. You can dress up your second and third place finishes any way you want but it is very much secondary to the big cup.

Then you have the whole secondary argument about how CL qualification is success, so how can you have both success and failure in one.

Well you can.

[Luis Anaconda]

I would not go that far as I think it is both excessive and silly.

Look, we are a massive club on the domestic scene, a club whose primary aim every season has to be to win the league therefore not winning it is failure. You can dress up your second and third place finishes any way you want but it is very much secondary to the big cup.

Then you have the whole secondary argument about how CL qualification is success, so how can you have both success and failure in one.

Well you can.

:nod: Much like you can be talking utter utter *******s and yet make senses at the same time

[SWv2]

:nod: Much like you can be talking utter utter *******s and yet make senses at the same time

Exactly, and I am first to admit that in this case.

Very good match last night I thought, fair result the draw.

[Luis Anaconda]

Exactly, and I am first to admit that in this case.

Very good match last night I thought, fair result the draw.

It was. I was surprised at the Real team though - without Casemiro or someone of his ilk they are simply a shambles at the back, particularly against a team as rampant as Dortmund at the moment. Probably luck Dembele likes a shot just over the bar. Given the pending transfer ban, Real's failure to buy sufficient back-up is awfully strange

[Sir C]

Well it is an Arsenal forum. We have a game tonight. Makes more sense to talk about that than lunch or Corbyn to me.

What's wrong with discussing lunch? Food is fundamental to life. Indeed, one wonders if there is a more important issue worthy of discussion.

[SWv2]

It was. I was surprised at the Real team though - without Casemiro or someone of his ilk they are simply a shambles at the back, particularly against a team as rampant as Dortmund at the moment. Probably luck Dembele likes a shot just over the bar. Given the pending transfer ban, Real's failure to buy sufficient back-up is awfully strange

The antics of the keeper defied logic. I know your average foreign may on occasion seek to punch instead of catch but he was taking the piss. To then punch the ball into the oncoming players was simply hilarious.

Casemiro was injured only last week but given the importance that ZZ (correctly) gave to the role to have what appears no real backup is pish for a club of their size.

Disappointed that Mor did not start still a very fine side given current absences.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

What's wrong with discussing lunch? Food is fundamental to life. Indeed, one wonders if there is a more important issue worthy of discussion.

Nothing. I love food. But it isn't righter than talking about an Arsenal game on an Arsenal matchday. That's all. Some people seem to think the latter odd. Which I think is odd.

[Luis Anaconda]

The antics of the keeper defied logic. I know your average foreign may on occasion seek to punch instead of catch but he was taking the piss. To then punch the ball into the oncoming players was simply hilarious.

Casemiro was injured only last week but given the importance that ZZ (correctly) gave to the role to have what appears no real backup is pish for a club of their size.

Disappointed that Mor did not start still a very fine side given current absences.
Indeed - Götze is a massive waste of space in that line up, a player who has regressed quite considerably.

I think Navas is a good keeper but bizarre last night, shame it wasn't the despicable Ramos who he punched it on to. From the ridiculous to the sublime, there was at least one pass from Modric which I would happily watch over and over again- such a lovely player to watch.

Would love to See Atletico v Bayern tonight - that could be a cracker as well. Will have quarter of an eye on it

[Sir C]

Nothing. I love food. But it isn't righter than talking about an Arsenal game on an Arsenal matchday. That's all. Some people seem to think the latter odd. Which I think is odd.

Oh, I see. Yes, you are right, objecting to discussion of an Arsenal game on an Arsenal forum is, indeed, strange.

[SWv2]

.... there was at least one pass from Modric which I would happily watch over and over again- such a lovely player to watch.


There was a pass from Thiago to Ribery last weekend that led to Kimmich's winner. I did actually keep rewinding it to watch it over.

Then I realised the person I was trying to admire it with was 9 and gave up.

[Luis Anaconda]

There was a pass from Thiago to Ribery last weekend that led to Kimmich's winner. I did actually keep rewinding it to watch it over.

Then I realised the person I was trying to admire it with was 9 and gave up.
:hehe: I didn't admire that - my thoughts were along the lines of jammy Bayern ****s tbh

[World's End Stella]

It surely won't have failed if he gets 35 goals and we come second to a 110-point Man City.

Or even if we take a good run at the league, I think. I don't think Wenger, regardless of any decisions he takes, needs to win the league to make the supporters happy. All he needs to do is challenge for the league; be in the mix come May and be a few results away from becoming league champions, even if it doesn't happen.

That's all that the support is really asking, and as we are one of the ten richest clubs in the world it isn't an unreasonable ask imo.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

Or even if we take a good run at the league, I think. I don't think Wenger, regardless of any decisions he takes, needs to win the league to make the supporters happy. All he needs to do is challenge for the league; be in the mix come May and be a few results away from becoming league champions, even if it doesn't happen.

That's all that the support is really asking, and as we are one of the ten richest clubs in the world it isn't an unreasonable ask imo.

People forget challenges. When we didn't win anything for nine years it was often said we hadn't challenged for the league. Which was n't true: at least two seasons during that period we looked like we could win it before falling away. "Challenge" has become a euphemism for "win".

[World's End Stella]

People forget challenges. When we didn't win anything for nine years it was often said we hadn't challenged for the league. Which was n't true: at least two seasons during that period we looked like we could win it before falling away. "Challenge" has become a euphemism for "win".

I would argue it wasn't true enough times. I agree we challenged at least once (lost 2-1 at Old Trafford when that horrible c*nt Webb gave a free kick against Gilberto that was never a foul, no idea what year that was) during that period but I think it's a valid criticism that we didn't challenge enough times and that that, as much as the lack of trophies, was the frustration for many supporters, I think.

Top ten richest clubs in the world should challenge for the league most years, Mo. During that period there were far too many years when it was over in February.

[Sir C]

I would argue it wasn't true enough times. I agree we challenged at least once (lost 2-1 at Old Trafford when that horrible c*nt Webb gave a free kick against Gilberto that was never a foul, no idea what year that was) during that period but I think it's a valid criticism that we didn't challenge enough times and that that, as much as the lack of trophies, was the frustration for many supporters, I think.

Top ten richest clubs in the world should challenge for the league most years, Mo. During that period there were far too many years when it was over in February.

No misplaced sense of entitlement here, no sirree.

304

[redgunamo]

No misplaced sense of entitlement here, no sirree.

304

You're reading too much into it, I feel. Everyone wants their team to finish as high as possible each season. I don't think we're supposed to blandly consume. We must also support and motivate and encourage, engage *and* expect.

[SWv2]

People forget challenges. When we didn't win anything for nine years it was often said we hadn't challenged for the league. Which was n't true: at least two seasons during that period we looked like we could win it before falling away. "Challenge" has become a euphemism for "win".

Define challenge?

In touch with leaders or in the lead in Jan, Feb ... March ... fallen away by April.

[Sir C]

You're reading too much into it, I feel. Everyone wants their team to finish as high as possible each season. I don't think we're supposed to blandly consume. We must support and motivate and encourage, engage and expect.

We should chill the fúck out a little. Encouraging is one thing, expecting is another, demanding is a third.

[redgunamo]

Define challenge?

In touch with leaders or in the lead in Jan, Feb ... March ... fallen away by April.

As the man says, "challenge" is actually just another way of saying "win". It's how you answer if you don't want Sir C to call you spoilt.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

Define challenge?

In touch with leaders or in the lead in Jan, Feb ... March ... fallen away by April.

Yes that's a challenge. What isn't a challenge is if you end up top three with a late burst.

How would you define it otherwise??? Lose the league on the toss of a coin in May???

[redgunamo]

We should chill the fúck out a little. Encouraging is one thing, expecting is another, demanding is a third.

And paying is a fourth and so on. I get you. Nothing wrong with any of that within the context of supporting a football club.

[SWv2]

Yes that's a challenge. What isn't a challenge is if you end up top three with a late burst.

How would you define it otherwise??? Lose the league on the toss of a coin in May???

Dunno, really impossible to define with any sense of logic or accuracy. One of those footballing idioms such as world class which really means **** all.

Personally, and I accept you disagree, I don't see how being top or second in January is challenging for the title as no titles are handed out then. You are simply having a good season to that point.

If you are still in with a decent mathematical shout in late April / May then I think you can with a degree of validity claim to be challenging.

[redgunamo]

Dunno, really impossible to define with any sense of logic or accuracy. One of those footballing idioms such as world class which really means **** all.

Personally, and I accept you disagree, I don't see how being top or second in January is challenging for the title as no titles are handed out then. You are simply having a good season to that point.

If you are still in with a decent mathematical shout in late April / May then I think you can with a degree of validity claim to be challenging.

Both of you, did we challenge last season?

[SWv2]

Both of you, did we challenge last season?

No.

.......

[Mo Britain less Europe]

Both of you, did we challenge last season?

Yes. Although I have a feeling if it hadn't been Leicester making the running perhaps it wouldn't have been seen as a strong challenge.

Challenge means when it looks, for a reasonable period of time, as if you could/might win it.

[SWv2]

Yes. Although I have a feeling if it hadn't been Leicester making the running perhaps it wouldn't have been seen as a strong challenge.

Challenge means when it looks, for a reasonable period of time, as if you could/might win it.

At what point did you think we were going to win it?

[Sir C]

At what point did you think we were going to win it?

Didn't things look promising when we beat Leicester at our place?

[redgunamo]

Yes. Although I have a feeling if it hadn't been Leicester making the running perhaps it wouldn't have been seen as a strong challenge.

Challenge means when it looks, for a reasonable period of time, as if you could/might win it.

OK. So what about the whole "we struggle to get 80 points" thing?

[Mo Britain less Europe]

At what point did you think we were going to win it?

When we were second, Chelsea and Manu were nowhere, Citeh so-so and everyone expected Leicester to collapse.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

OK. So what about the whole "we struggle to get 80 points" thing?

If you win your first 26 games and get 78 points everyone will expect you to win it but if you then lose your last 12 you won't.

Which is to say that a challenge is generally speaking when you're into the second half of the season and you are int he top places within a few points of the leaders. If you're top in March, as we were in 2008, it's certainly a challenge.

[redgunamo]

Didn't things look promising when we beat Leicester at our place?

It reminded me of Chelsea the other year when they took maximum points off the two teams who finished above them :-\

[SWv2]

Didn't things look promising when we beat Leicester at our place?

I genuinely can't remember what the status was after that game.

There was naturally a sense of euphoria gained from beating your nearest rival (were we second?), fuelled by the circumstances of the late winner, cue selfies in the dressing room etc.

I seem to recall, perhaps wrongly, that a loss in that game would in all likelihood written off any chance we had. Not sure if a win mind you catapulted us to a position of ascendancy.

[Sir C]

I genuinely can't remember what the status was after that game.

There was naturally a sense of euphoria gained from beating your nearest rival (were we second?), fuelled by the circumstances of the late winner, cue selfies in the dressing room etc.

I seem to recall, perhaps wrongly, that a loss in that game would in all likelihood written off any chance we had. Not sure if a win mind you catapulted us to a position of ascendancy.

Well one doesn't need to be in a position of ascendancy to be challenging. If, after that result, we were second and within reach of the leaders, as the euphoria would seem to suggest, then we were undoubtedly challenging.

[redgunamo]

If you win your first 26 games and get 78 points everyone will expect you to win it but if you then lose your last 12 you won't.

Which is to say that a challenge is generally speaking when you're into the second half of the season and you are int he top places within a few points of the leaders. If you're top in March, as we were in 2008, it's certainly a challenge.

That's fair enough, I think. In our particular case, it must be the constant top four finishes that skew people's views. Lately, unless we are way clear with two or three matches to play, folks will have their doubts because they have "seen it all before".

Although maybe the business end of the season is called that for a reason after all.

[redgunamo]

Well one doesn't need to be in a position of ascendancy to be challenging. If, after that result, we were second and within reach of the leaders, as the euphoria would seem to suggest, then we were undoubtedly challenging.

Especially as it was *only* Leicester City, as M says.

[SWv2]

Well one doesn't need to be in a position of ascendancy to be challenging. If, after that result, we were second and within reach of the leaders, as the euphoria would seem to suggest, then we were undoubtedly challenging.

I disagree.

[Sir C]

I disagree.

It's all subjective and opinions may vary. Your opinion just happens to be wrong.

[redgunamo]

I genuinely can't remember what the status was after that game.

There was naturally a sense of euphoria gained from beating your nearest rival (were we second?), fuelled by the circumstances of the late winner, cue selfies in the dressing room etc.

I seem to recall, perhaps wrongly, that a loss in that game would in all likelihood written off any chance we had. Not sure if a win mind you catapulted us to a position of ascendancy.

Put it this way, for a long time it looked like we'd struggle to get 80 and Leicester City became the lowest points-scoring champions in years with 81.

It was obviously always felt we'd have to finish ahead of one or two of the traditional, recent champions. They all had unexpectedly poor seasons, leaving us to feast on the soft, white belly meat of Leicester and Spurs :-\

[World's End Stella]

We should chill the fúck out a little. Encouraging is one thing, expecting is another, demanding is a third.

And making a rational observation with no sense of entitlement or emotion is another

[World's End Stella]

If you are still in with a decent mathematical shout in late April / May then I think you can with a degree of validity claim to be challenging.

Yes, that would be my definition, being within touching distance in late April or so. It's what supporters love, knowing you have a chance late in the season so that every game is incredibly important. Can't remember the last time I felt that way. :-(

[redgunamo]

It's all subjective and opinions may vary. Your opinion just happens to be wrong.

Perceptions too, isn't it. Liverpool are apparently the best team since sliced bread yet they've only the same points as us :shrug:

[SWv2]

It's all subjective and opinions may vary. Your opinion just happens to be wrong.

You very clearly set the bar of life much lower than I do which explains a lot.

You are also arrogant, and rude.

[SWv2]

Perceptions too, isn't it. Liverpool are apparently the best team since sliced bread yet they've only the same points as us :shrug:

They are challenging for the title you know.

[World's End Stella]

You very clearly set the bar of life much lower than I do which explains a lot.

You are also arrogant, and rude.

I'm also wrong apparently :-(

We didn't challenge for the league last year imo. I seem to recall spending most of April wondering if we were going to make the top four, not once thinking of actually winning it. That isn't 'challenging'.

[Sir C]

You very clearly set the bar of life much lower than I do which explains a lot.

You are also arrogant, and rude.

Arrogant, certainly. Rude, only ever deliberately.

[redgunamo]

They are challenging for the title you know.

:nod: In September too. Quite a feat. Well done, them.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

If you look at my posts of last season I kept wondering at what point the Leicester situation was becoming a title challenge. To be laughed at of course by the usual crowd of savants, some of whom are no longer with us.

[World's End Stella]

Arrogant, certainly. Rude, only ever deliberately.

You need to get over this idea what anyone who questions Wenger or the team's performance is an entitled, spoiled, whining, overly emotive brat, Charles.

There are a few about, no doubt, but a chap should be able to have a sensible conversation about his football club, team and manager without being accused of that sort of nonsense.

[Sir C]

You need to get over this idea what anyone who questions Wenger or the team's performance is an entitled, spoiled, whining, overly emotive brat, Charles.

There are a few about, no doubt, but a chap should be able to have a sensible conversation about his football club, team and manager without being accused of that sort of nonsense.

You misunderstand me. I come not from a position of defending Wenger, nor the team. I come from a position of having grown up at a time when one supported one's team and hoped for the best for them. Support was not a selfish issue and was certainly not based on 'challenging'. It was a question of selfless loyalty. (Unless you were one of the old cab drivers in the East Stand, they were a fúcking nightmare as well.)

[redgunamo]

You misunderstand me. I come not from a position of defending Wenger, nor the team. I come from a position of having grown up at a time when one supported one's team and hoped for the best for them. Support was not a selfish issue and was certainly not based on 'challenging'. It was a question of selfless loyalty. (Unless you were one of the old cab drivers in the East Stand, they were a fúcking nightmare as well.)

I don't know about that. Weren't you always among those who demanded we leave Highbury as it was, had become, a ****hole?

[Sir C]

I don't know about that. Weren't you always among those who demanded we leave Highbury as it was, had become, a ****hole?

Good Lord no, I would never 'demand' any such thing. I thought leaving Highbury was an unfortunate necessity and, by our final season, it was clear that the dear old place had become an anachronism in the modern game.

[World's End Stella]

You misunderstand me. I come not from a position of defending Wenger, nor the team. I come from a position of having grown up at a time when one supported one's team and hoped for the best for them. Support was not a selfish issue and was certainly not based on 'challenging'. It was a question of selfless loyalty. (Unless you were one of the old cab drivers in the East Stand, they were a fúcking nightmare as well.)

But during that time, when you went down the pub pre-match, didn't you discuss the club, the team, the manager? Didn't anyone at all offer opinions as to what was good or bad or could be improved with any of those three? It would be awfully boring if all the supporters ever did was tell each other how wonderful things were.

Always supporting the team in the ground I absolutely agree with. Why even I, World's End Stella, would cheer Aaron Ramsey were he to do something good while I was in the ground. And one day, that might actually happen :-)

[Ash]

Always supporting the team in the ground I absolutely agree with. Why even I, World's End Stella, would cheer Aaron Ramsey were he to do something good while I was in the ground. And one day, that might actually happen :-)

You'd need to attend a game when he was playing though, for that to happen.

[Luis Anaconda]

You'd need to attend a game when he was playing though, for that to happen.

As long as it's not the Boro game

[redgunamo]

You can't have it both ways, I'm afraid. Either you want us to be able to afford Mesut Özil's wages and play for the European Cup every season or you don't. And if we have him *he* will be the first and loudest one demanding titles and more and more money, not our supporters :shrug:

I repeat, fans only *want* stuff within the usual, traditional context of supporting their football club.


Good Lord no, I would never 'demand' any such thing. I thought leaving Highbury was an unfortunate necessity and, by our final season, it was clear that the dear old place had become an anachronism in the modern game.

[Pokster]

You misunderstand me. I come not from a position of defending Wenger, nor the team. I come from a position of having grown up at a time when one supported one's team and hoped for the best for them. Support was not a selfish issue and was certainly not based on 'challenging'. It was a question of selfless loyalty. (Unless you were one of the old cab drivers in the East Stand, they were a fúcking nightmare as well.)

"selfless loyalty" a bit like the turncoat in your avator?

[Ash]

As long as it's not the Boro game

tbf to the big shouty lad he does know where the bar is.