Anyone watch the Brexit thing on BBC2 last night?

[Burney]

Oddly (and I do not speak as a fan of the man, generally) Farage came out of it rather well and as about the only person involved who was on the side he was on purely out of conviction rather than calculation about what he could get out of it. Boris, on the other hand, came out of it very badly. Heseltine and Ashdown came across as pompous cùnts, while Jacob Rees-Mogg was rather endearing, but ought to shoot his tailor. Double-breasted suits are not designed for beanpole types like him.
It also made it clear just what a terrible idea Bob Geldof's Remain flotilla was and how badly it backfired.
The funny thing is, though, that it all seems an awfully long time ago. It was only three months ago, but it felt like looking back on a different time. Strange.

[World's End Stella]

Oddly (and I do not speak as a fan of the man, generally) Farage came out of it rather well and as about the only person involved who was on the side he was on purely out of conviction rather than calculation about what he could get out of it. Boris, on the other hand, came out of it very badly. Heseltine and Ashdown came across as pompous cùnts, while Jacob Rees-Mogg was rather endearing, but ought to shoot his tailor. Double-breasted suits are not designed for beanpole types like him.
It also made it clear just what a terrible idea Bob Geldof's Remain flotilla was and how badly it backfired.
The funny thing is, though, that it all seems an awfully long time ago. It was only three months ago, but it felt like looking back on a different time. Strange.

Yes, although it was as I worked my way through a rather fine bottle of Burgundy :groan: :-(

MY recollection is not dissimilar to yours although while the details are foggy, at some point I remember thinking 'no wonder these f*ckwits lost the vote' as I watched yet another really lame Remain person speaking

[Sir C]

Oddly (and I do not speak as a fan of the man, generally) Farage came out of it rather well and as about the only person involved who was on the side he was on purely out of conviction rather than calculation about what he could get out of it. Boris, on the other hand, came out of it very badly. Heseltine and Ashdown came across as pompous cùnts, while Jacob Rees-Mogg was rather endearing, but ought to shoot his tailor. Double-breasted suits are not designed for beanpole types like him.
It also made it clear just what a terrible idea Bob Geldof's Remain flotilla was and how badly it backfired.
The funny thing is, though, that it all seems an awfully long time ago. It was only three months ago, but it felt like looking back on a different time. Strange.

I didn't see it, no; indeed, I consciously avoided it. I appear to be suffering from Brexit fatigue, which doesn't bode well for my mental state in the months to come given that we haven't even really got started yet.

There is every chance, of course, that Jacob's suit was originally tailored for his father, or even for his grandfather, perhaps in the 30s, when double breasted was the only option for the young buck around town.

[Burney]

Yes, although it was as I worked my way through a rather fine bottle of Burgundy :groan: :-(

MY recollection is not dissimilar to yours although while the details are foggy, at some point I remember thinking 'no wonder these f*ckwits lost the vote' as I watched yet another really lame Remain person speaking

Remain's problem was that it didn't have a message that anyone could really sign up to. It mostly preached to the converted and tried to scare or shame everyone else into compliance.

[Burney]

I didn't see it, no; indeed, I consciously avoided it. I appear to be suffering from Brexit fatigue, which doesn't bode well for my mental state in the months to come given that we haven't even really got started yet.

There is every chance, of course, that Jacob's suit was originally tailored for his father, or even for his grandfather, perhaps in the 30s, when double breasted was the only option for the young buck around town.

It was actually rather good fun - and not unamusing. It wasn't really about the arguments (which we've all rehearsed to death, I agree), but about the way it played out with the various individuals involved. A number of the politicos were surprisingly frank.

[World's End Stella]

Remain's problem was that it didn't have a message that anyone could really sign up to. It mostly preached to the converted and tried to scare or shame everyone else into compliance.

Yes, I think that's correct. They responded to the Leave campaign's negativity (immigration scaremongering, EU mistrust etc) with their own version, which was a mistake as Remain could never really be as negative as Leave. Focusing on the benefits of the EU and the promising future of one of the largest single markets in the world would have been much more effective.

I think it was Heseltine and Ashdown, were they on a stage together at one point? I seem to recall thinking they both looked and sounded ridiculous, like a couple of dinosaurs who should be retired in the south of France, not on a stage in England.

[Burney]

Yes, I think that's correct. They responded to the Leave campaign's negativity (immigration scaremongering, EU mistrust etc) with their own version, which was a mistake as Remain could never really be as negative as Leave. Focusing on the benefits of the EU and the promising future of one of the largest single markets in the world would have been much more effective.

I think it was Heseltine and Ashdown, were they on a stage together at one point? I seem to recall thinking they both looked and sounded ridiculous, like a couple of dinosaurs who should be retired in the south of France, not on a stage in England.

Well the difference in the negative campaigning was that Leave could point to actual negatives that people felt and experienced on things like immigration, the refugee crisis, the Eurozone' handling of Greece and Italy, the EU's lack of democracy and transparency, clear ambitions to becoming a federal body, etc, etc, while Remain's negativity had perforce to be based on conjecture and hypothetical. There was only ever going to be one winner in such an argument.

[World's End Stella]

Well the difference in the negative campaigning was that Leave could point to actual negatives that people felt and experienced on things like immigration, the refugee crisis, the Eurozone' handling of Greece and Italy, the EU's lack of democracy and transparency, clear ambitions to becoming a federal body, etc, etc, while Remain's negativity had perforce to be based on conjecture and hypothetical. There was only ever going to be one winner in such an argument.

Er, yes, that's exactly what I meant when I said 'Remain could never really be as negative as Leave' :-)

[Mo Britain less Europe]

The problem with Remain is that it had few arguments beyond the stirring up of fear which they grotesquely overplayed. And no answer to most of the issues concerning the leave voters.

[Burney]

Er, yes, that's exactly what I meant when I said 'Remain could never really be as negative as Leave' :-)

Perhaps. It's not what you wrote, though. :shrug:

[Mo Britain less Europe]

The people who ran the Brexit campaign were their own bosses. The EU bosses weren't involved so it was underlings of underlings, with no decision-making powers, who were largely involved.

[Burney]

The people who ran the Brexit campaign were their own bosses. The EU bosses weren't involved so it was underlings of underlings, with no decision-making powers, who were largely involved.

Yes. They were hamstrung by the fact that they couldn't make any promises that the things that people disliked would get better. With the Scotch referendum, the government at least had the power to offer certain things in return for a No vote. By the EU's nature, it was impossible for any Remain campaigner to say that anything would improve. They were limited to saying things like 'We can transform it from within', which rang utterly hollow to people who'd watched us try and fail to do that very thing for four decades.