From the weekends 'explosions' in New York I noticed something odd in the US media.

[Pat Vegas]

First person to get any sort of backlash over this event was Trump for calling it a bomb :hehe:

Everyone knows they were 'devices' and explosions'

[Burney]

First person to get any sort of backlash over this event was Trump for calling it a bomb :hehe:

Everyone knows they were 'devices' and explosions'

It's always alarming to find oneself agreeing with a Katie Hopkins article in the Mail, but there you go

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3796893/KATIE-HOPKINS-Fear-suddenly-politicians-terrified-T-word.html

Of course The Guardian went its usual route and immediately worried about the statistically insignificant 'backlash' rather than - y'know - the people who are trying to kill innocent people:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/19/new-york-bomb-muslim-americans-backlash

[World's End Stella]

It's always alarming to find oneself agreeing with a Katie Hopkins article in the Mail, but there you go

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3796893/KATIE-HOPKINS-Fear-suddenly-politicians-terrified-T-word.html

Of course The Guardian went its usual route and immediately worried about the statistically insignificant 'backlash' rather than - y'know - the people who are trying to kill innocent people:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/19/new-york-bomb-muslim-americans-backlash

Yeah, can't imagine why violence committed by Muslims might lead people to think that there is a fundamental problem with intolerance and violence within our Muslim communities.

From the Times:

A popular imam and broadcaster was accused yesterday of inflaming divisions among Muslims after he condemned a murdered religious leader for his use of “voodoo” witchcraft.

Ajmal Masroor declared that Jalal Uddin was guilty of practices that were “totally forbidden in Islam”. Mr Uddin, an elderly Sufi scholar, was beaten to death after hardline religious students labelled him a sorcerer.

Sufis claimed that Mr Masroor’s criticism of the 71-year-old imam provided “a theological justification” for murder. The broadcaster claimed that Mr Uddin’s “grave sin” was a form of faith healing whose use is widespread among traditional south Asian Muslims. It involves the wearing of amulets, known as taweez, that contain Koranic verses to bring protection and good fortune.
Ajmal Masroor accused Mr Uddin of practising black magic and committing a grave sin
Sang Tan/AP

The young killers, from Rochdale, Greater Manchester, were disciples of the conservative Salafi tradition whose strict interpretation of Islamic law is used by terrorists to justify the slaying of those they deem to be non-Muslim.

Users of taweez have been beheaded in Saudi Arabia and in Isis-controlled territory in Iraq and Syria. After one of Mr Uddin’s murderers was sentenced to life imprisonment last week, commentators warned that the killing was evidence that a Sunni “civil war” in Britain was turning violent. Mr Masroor, 44, an imam at four London mosques who was a Liberal Democrat candidate in the 2010 general election, presents a show on two Islamic satellite channels and has written regularly for The Guardian.

He is generally regarded as a moderate voice within Islam and says he is under police protection after being named on an Islamic State hit list.

On Friday, Mr Masroor described Mr Uddin’s murder as barbaric but proceeded to equate the “evil” of Isis ideology with the “evil” of taweez. He accused Mr Uddin of practising black magic and committing a grave sin.

His comments on a Facebook blog provoked hostility among Muslims. Supporters condemned Sufis for following a warped ideology more in common with Hindu traditions. Critics accused Mr Masroor of promoting sectarianism and exploiting an “innocent person’s murder”. Mohammed Shafiq, of the Rochdale-based Ramadhan Foundation, described Mr Uddin as “a kind and thoughtful man”.

Haras Rafiq, of the counterextremism Quilliam Foundation, said Mr Masroor had provided theological justification for Mr Uddin’s murder.

Mr Masroor last night defended his comments but rejected claims that he was encouraging sectarianism.

He said: “There’s no room in my understanding of Islam for taweez and all such superstitious mumbo-jumbo.”

[Burney]

He said: “There’s no room in my understanding of Islam for taweez and all such superstitious mumbo-jumbo.”

:clap: The man's a comedy genius!

[Monty92]

:clap: The man's a comedy genius!

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[World's End Stella]

I like this bit:

'He is generally regarded as a moderate voice within Islam'

So a moderate voice within our Muslim communities is comfortable qualifying an elderly man being beaten to death with a theological justification. Which sort of illuminates the rather enormous elephant in the room in this whole Islam/Terrorism debate.

Specifically, to what extent is there a correlation between a general culture of intolerance and violence within our Muslim communities, and the more extreme forms of intolerance and violence that we see with ISIS and Al Qaeda? Or to put it in practical terms, do men and women within our Muslim communities who hold homophobic beliefs, who think that women should cover up and not leave the home without a male relative and who support forced marriages (to use but three examples), in some way contribute to the radicalisation of members of their communities? And if so, isn't true that we will only solve this problem when our Muslim communities understand this relationship and work with us to address it?

That or we could just go down the Guardian route and blame Western imperialism, racism and capitalism until we turn blue in the face.

[Burney]

I like this bit:

'He is generally regarded as a moderate voice within Islam'

So a moderate voice within our Muslim communities is comfortable qualifying an elderly man being beaten to death with a theological justification. Which sort of illuminates the rather enormous elephant in the room in this whole Islam/Terrorism debate.

Specifically, to what extent is there a correlation between a general culture of intolerance and violence within our Muslim communities, and the more extreme forms of intolerance and violence that we see with ISIS and Al Qaeda? Or to put it in practical terms, do men and women within our Muslim communities who hold homophobic beliefs, who think that women should cover up and not leave the home without a male relative and who support forced marriages (to use but three examples), in some way contribute to the radicalisation of members of their communities? And if so, isn't true that we will only solve this problem when our Muslim communities understand this relationship and work with us to address it?

That or we could just go down the Guardian route and blame Western imperialism, racism and capitalism until we turn blue in the face.

Well the whole idea of 'moderate Islam' is a total fiction, I'm afraid. It just means muslims who haven't actively killed anyone yet.

[Ash]

Well the whole idea of 'moderate Islam' is a total fiction, I'm afraid. It just means muslims who haven't actively killed anyone yet.

But taking the "all muslims are murderers" line is like the "all men are rapists" line - hyperbolic, divisive and unhelpful. If you haven't known and befriended secular muslims then, well, I'm surprised and a little disappoint.

[World's End Stella]

Well the whole idea of 'moderate Islam' is a total fiction, I'm afraid. It just means muslims who haven't actively killed anyone yet.

By 'moderate Islam' I mean Muslims who practice a moderate form of Islam. There is no shortage of people who consider themselves Muslims but who are quite happy to keep their religious and social/political views separate. And many if not most of those people hold social/political views consistent with a secular democracy.

It is the silence of this particular part of our Muslim communities when it comes to Islamic terrorism which is the issue, I think.

[eastgermanautos]

First person to get any sort of backlash over this event was Trump for calling it a bomb :hehe:

Everyone knows they were 'devices' and explosions'

I see some benefit in not creating a city-wide panic. And, additionally, in lynch mobs not killing every Moslem in sight. The latter which tends to happen in low-information countries in Central Europe or wherever.

[Burney]

But taking the "all muslims are murderers" line is like the "all men are rapists" line - hyperbolic, divisive and unhelpful. If you haven't known and befriended secular muslims then, well, I'm surprised and a little disappoint.

That isn't what I'm saying. My point is that, in order to be an observant Muslim, you have to believe a variety of deeply unpleasant things.
I have of course known what you call 'secular Muslims', but you have to remember that by the terms of that faith and in the eyes of many of their co-religionists, such people are not real Muslims.

[eastgermanautos]

I like this bit:

'He is generally regarded as a moderate voice within Islam'

So a moderate voice within our Muslim communities is comfortable qualifying an elderly man being beaten to death with a theological justification. Which sort of illuminates the rather enormous elephant in the room in this whole Islam/Terrorism debate.

Specifically, to what extent is there a correlation between a general culture of intolerance and violence within our Muslim communities, and the more extreme forms of intolerance and violence that we see with ISIS and Al Qaeda? Or to put it in practical terms, do men and women within our Muslim communities who hold homophobic beliefs, who think that women should cover up and not leave the home without a male relative and who support forced marriages (to use but three examples), in some way contribute to the radicalisation of members of their communities? And if so, isn't true that we will only solve this problem when our Muslim communities understand this relationship and work with us to address it?

That or we could just go down the Guardian route and blame Western imperialism, racism and capitalism until we turn blue in the face.

What about that dude who killed the Muslim college students down in South Carolina? You don't live in places where there's a real threat of mob or vigilante violence. Most of the US outside the northeast and California is danger territory. That's the Troof.

[eastgermanautos]

Well the whole idea of 'moderate Islam' is a total fiction, I'm afraid. It just means muslims who haven't actively killed anyone yet.

It's kind of bullsh!t, dude. You have a moderate conservative leader. So you don't really have a fear that things are gonna get out of hand. Of course, with a guy like Trump, we could have a real Kristallnacht on our hands.

[Sir C]

It's kind of bullsh!t, dude. You have a moderate conservative leader. So you don't really have a fear that things are gonna get out of hand. Of course, with a guy like Trump, we could have a real Kristallnacht on our hands.

I am sure that the innate good sense and sense of proportion of the American people will... oh.

As you were.

[World's End Stella]

but you have to remember that by the terms of that faith and in the eyes of many of their co-religionists, such people are not real Muslims.

Yes, but that isn't really relevant to the argument as to whether or not there is a 'moderate Islam'. Just because the psychopaths of ISIS don't believe there is, doesn't mean there isn't.

[eastgermanautos]

I am sure that the innate good sense and sense of proportion of the American people will... oh.

As you were.

:hehe: .

[Burney]

Yes, but that isn't really relevant to the argument as to whether or not there is a 'moderate Islam'. Just because the psychopaths of ISIS don't believe there is, doesn't mean there isn't.

ISIS is a symptom of a much larger regressive movement of Islam that has arisen in opposition to precisely the sort of western-influenced 'moderation' you describe, though. And the problem is that the scripture favours the conservatives and not the modernisers. In that sense, the conservatives have a point: theirs is 'real' Islam and 'modern' or to use an oxymoron 'secular Islam' is not.

[World's End Stella]

ISIS is a symptom of a much larger regressive movement of Islam that has arisen in opposition to precisely the sort of western-influenced 'moderation' you describe, though. And the problem is that the scripture favours the conservatives and not the modernisers. In that sense, the conservatives have a point: theirs is 'real' Islam and 'modern' or to use an oxymoron 'secular Islam' is not.

That's true but that can be overcome provided the moderate members of the Muslim communities are vocal enough within their communities and willing to engage with people outside of their communities to solve the problem.

So far, I have under-whelmed in this regard. And watching some of them continually engage in deflection and avoidance in articles like that one in the Guardian is rather galling.

[Burney]

That's true but that can be overcome provided the moderate members of the Muslim communities are vocal enough within their communities and willing to engage with people outside of their communities to solve the problem.

So far, I have under-whelmed in this regard. And watching some of them continually engage in deflection and avoidance in articles like that one in the Guardian is rather galling.

That's because your expectations are based on the premise that what these people actually want is to live in a tolerant, liberal western society based on the principle of equality under the law. They don't. Even the 'moderate' ones believe things about women, gays, unbelievers and apostates that would make your eyes water.
This is the fundamental misunderstanding. Moderate Islam is a western fantasy for the simple reason that Islam isn't moderate.

[World's End Stella]

That's because your expectations are based on the premise that what these people actually want is to live in a tolerant, liberal western society based on the principle of equality under the law. They don't. Even the 'moderate' ones believe things about women, gays, unbelievers and apostates that would make your eyes water.
This is the fundamental misunderstanding. Moderate Islam is a western fantasy for the simple reason that Islam isn't moderate.

That's a generalisation, Burney. And with the passage of time, I think it is a generalisation that will become less and less valid.

[Burney]

That's a generalisation, Burney. And with the passage of time, I think it is a generalisation that will become less and less valid.

It's not really a generalisation so much as a statement of theological fact (another oxymoron). Look in the Q'uran if you don't believe me. You have to understand that their religion is very, very real to these people. They actually believe this stuff and asking them to tone it down a bit for western consumption is deeply offensive. We look at this religion and ask why they can't have a reformation or an enlightenment, ignoring the uniquely complex structural, historical, economic and sociological reasons that led to our reformation and enlightenment. It's not likely to happen.