I know we've done our days Allan bashing but

[Herbette Chapman - aged 15]

I've just discovered that one of the little ****s that murdered the french priest had been in custody but was allowed to leave custody with an electronic tag. The decision was taken by an independent judge despite objections from the french prosecutors.

[Ash]

I've just discovered that one of the little ****s that murdered the french priest had been in custody but was allowed to leave custody with an electronic tag. The decision was taken by an independent judge despite objections from the french prosecutors.

Is the independent judge available for comment?

[Monty92]

I've just discovered that one of the little ****s that murdered the french priest had been in custody but was allowed to leave custody with an electronic tag. The decision was taken by an independent judge despite objections from the french prosecutors.

This is the logical conclusion of the pandemic of moral blindness and delusion currently afflicting much of Europe.

Personally, I blame the citizens of Europe far more than politicians. Politics exists upstream from culture.

[Ash]

Personally, I blame the citizens of Europe far more than politicians. Politics exists upstream from culture.

That's upside down, dear. The prevailing ideas within society generally come from the Ruling Class, as Uncle Karl pointed out.

How's the sprog doing?

[redgunamo]

That's upside down, dear. The prevailing ideas within society generally come from the Ruling Class, as Uncle Karl pointed out.

How's the sprog doing?

He was a kraut though, so it probably made sense to him.

[Monty92]

That's upside down, dear. The prevailing ideas within society generally come from the Ruling Class, as Uncle Karl pointed out.

How's the sprog doing?

You think the prevailing ideas within today's society generally come from our politicians?

[Burney]

It's the inevitable consequence of this absurd pretence that we should treat these barbarians as though they were part of our society - with all the rights and privileges that entails - rather than as a an unwelcome and hostile alien presence within it.

[Ash]

You think the prevailing ideas within today's society generally come from our politicians?

A wider group of the powerful, including political, media, academia and business classes. The 'opinion' makers. And I use the word 'society' loosely in the way the Victorians used it. For them it was the upper-middle classes upwards. I was referring to a wider middle class. The proles have a habit of sticking two fingers up to that, as we have seen.

[Burney]

He didn't say politicians, he said the ruling class. Very different things these days.

[Monty92]

It's the inevitable consequence of this absurd pretence that we should treat these barbarians as though they were part of our society - with all the rights and privileges that entails - rather than as a an unwelcome and hostile alien presence within it.

The only caveat I *would* make is that we (and our secular, enlightened counterparts) do share one thing in common with these barbarians: we are all highly critical of the self-inflicted degradation of much of western culture.

Other than their belief in revelation and the supernatural, are you absolutely sure we share less in common with your average Allan than your average western, reality TV-watching, Instagram using, vapid narcissistic cretin?

[Monty92]

He didn't say politicians, he said the ruling class. Very different things these days.

I know. But my original post he was replying to referred to politicians.

[redgunamo]

It's the inevitable consequence of this absurd pretence that we should treat these barbarians as though they were part of our society - with all the rights and privileges that entails - rather than as a an unwelcome and hostile alien presence within it.

Yes. I rather think that's how my hounds feel since I introduced a wife and children into the household.

Quite right too, actually. Guzzling brutes.

[Monty92]

A wider group of the powerful, including political, media, academia and business classes. The 'opinion' makers. And I use the word 'society' loosely in the way the Victorians used it. For them it was the upper-middle classes upwards. I was referring to a wider middle class. The proles have a habit of sticking two fingers up to that, as we have seen.

But arguably the most powerful and influential ideas today come from special interest groups, who have of course infiltrated the ruling class, but remain powerful even where they haven't.

[Burney]

The significant difference is that we are critical of current western culture from the perspective of wanting to revive and improve it, whereas they are critical of it from the perspective of wanting to destroy it.

[Monty92]

The significant difference is that we are critical of current western culture from the perspective of wanting to revive and improve it, whereas they are critical of it from the perspective of wanting to destroy it.

But a devil's advocate might say that they want to destroy it because of our efforts to impose it on them.

I know you've pointed out that the Islamic world has been at war with the west for centuries, but there's no denying that modern Islamic fundamentalism was a direct response to our exploits in their lands.

[Burney]

Well actually it was a direct response to the increasing westernisation of previously Islamic societies that started to embrace more modern, secular ideas (Nasser's Egypt, for instance). Those theocratic ideas were then succoured by the most conservative of all the middle eastern countries - Saudi Arabia, which has promulgated its regressive, ultra-conservative brand of Islam worldwide.

[Monty92]

Well actually it was a direct response to the increasing westernisation of previously Islamic societies that started to embrace more modern, secular ideas (Nasser's Egypt, for instance). Those theocratic ideas were then succoured by the most conservative of all the middle eastern countries - Saudi Arabia, which has promulgated its regressive, ultra-conservative brand of Islam worldwide.

And what of the west's post-war support for the creation of the state of Israel and, specifically, the humiliating defeat of Egypt during the six-day war? These cannot be analysed purely within the paradigm of Islamism.

[Burney]

Oh, the establishment of Israel and the defeat of the Arab countries are certainly nurtured as a Muslim humiliation by Islamic fundamentalists, but they are merely one contributory factor amongst many.
Ultimately, radical Islam is more part of an argument amongst Muslims than its about the west. It's equivalent to the counter-reformation in Europe - a return to what they see as untainted 'real' Islamic values and a reaction to more secular ideas. We - as in The west - are simply what they have to kick against.

[redgunamo]

Oh, the establishment of Israel and the defeat of the Arab countries are certainly nurtured as a Muslim humiliation by Islamic fundamentalists, but they are merely one contributory factor amongst many.
Ultimately, radical Islam is more part of an argument amongst Muslims than its about the west. It's equivalent to the counter-reformation in Europe - a return to what they see as untainted 'real' Islamic values and a reaction to more secular ideas. We - as in The west - are simply what they have to kick against.

Yes. The trouble is that too many of their old strongman leaders managed to die of old age, rather than be offed in the prime of life by their own people. Even their own bodyguards. To protect this easy life, these gentlemen increasingly used us as a pressure valve.

Stands to reason it would come to this, current pass.