Errr...who the **** is Owen Smith when he's at his gran's?

[Burney]

Quite funny to watch them oppose Corbyn with one of the few people in the Labour Party even less qualified for a senior post than he is. They might as well have put a shop dummy up against him.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

The only Owen Smith I know is an out and out scoundrel.

Funny one, I thought Angela Eagle would have had a much better chance of ousting the dictator.

[Burney]

The only Owen Smith I know is an out and out scoundrel.

Funny one, I thought Angela Eagle would have had a much better chance of ousting the dictator.

Nah. Eagle is tainted by having actually been in power and having actually supported her party when in power. She is therefore 'Blairite scum' and has no chance of getting any votes from the left. Smith, on the other hand, is a 'clean skin' opportunist who can pretend to be a lefty and therefore take votes off Corbyn - that's the theory, anyway.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

The left is only going to vote for Corbyn. This is the closest they've got to power since the Zinoviev letters. Their only hope is to get the right an centre, or what's left of it, and the anti-Corbyn soft-left.

[Burney]

The left is only going to vote for Corbyn. This is the closest they've got to power since the Zinoviev letters. Their only hope is to get the right an centre, or what's left of it, and the anti-Corbyn soft-left.

I am starting to wonder if it's all just an elaborate hoax designed to raise funds for the Labour Party. After all, you've got both sides encouraging people to pay up and join in order to vote against the other. :sherlock:

Nah. That would be too clever for Labour.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

It's 1979/82 all over again. I think Labour splits if Corbyn wins again but the bad news is that this may result in a new SDP/Liberal type realigning of British politics where old failures dress up in new clothes to have another attempt at power.

[Burney]

It's 1979/82 all over again. I think Labour splits if Corbyn wins again but the bad news is that this may result in a new SDP/Liberal type realigning of British politics where old failures dress up in new clothes to have another attempt at power.

On one level, I would actually welcome a moderate, centrist, social democratic party that I could actually consider voting for. I genuinely don't think it's healthy for there to be no opposition. However, I fear that the left is simply too broad a church ever to contain all the ideological shades in one or even two parties. Under the FPTP system, I fear you'd more realistically be looking at a fragmented left and near-perpetual Tory government.

[Ash]

It's 1979/82 all over again. I think Labour splits if Corbyn wins again but the bad news is that this may result in a new SDP/Liberal type realigning of British politics where old failures dress up in new clothes to have another attempt at power.

Labour should split. It abandoned socialism and the working class years ago and is now a party for the PC middle classes to feel good about themselves and their lofty opinions. The referendum showed that the only party that gives a **** about the working class is UKIP, and there needs to be a non-nationalist alternative to them, as a matter of some urgency, before we end up with the far-right **** that is appearing elsewhere in Europe.

[Burney]

Labour should split. It abandoned socialism and the working class years ago and is now a party for the PC middle classes to feel good about themselves and their lofty opinions. The referendum showed that the only party that gives a **** about the working class is UKIP, and there needs to be a non-nationalist alternative to them, as a matter of some urgency, before we end up with the far-right **** that is appearing elsewhere in Europe.

They abandoned socialism because people stopped voting for it. Saying Labour abandoned socialism is a bit like saying that electrical shops 'abandoned' video recorders and tape decks. You can't sell what no-one's buying.

[Ash]

Under the FPTP system, I fear you'd more realistically be looking at a fragmented left and near-perpetual Tory government.

Which would eventually lead to electoral reform. It was rejected before but it was a fudge of an option that time round. A perpetual one-party state would change people's minds.

Oh, and there have been plenty of moderate, centrist, social democratic parties in recent years to chose from.

[Burney]

Which would eventually lead to electoral reform. It was rejected before but it was a fudge of an option that time round. A perpetual one-party state would change people's minds.

Oh, and there have been plenty of moderate, centrist, social democratic parties in recent years to chose from.

No there haven't. The LibDems were to the left of Labour under the Blair/Brown era, while even during that period the Labour party was still predicated on class hatred, envy, metropolitanism and a doctrinaire adherence to identity politics. Those things - in addition to the fact that it still had room for people like Corbyn, Skinner et al - meant I could never, ever vote for it.

[Ash]

They abandoned socialism because people stopped voting for it. Saying Labour abandoned socialism is a bit like saying that electrical shops 'abandoned' video recorders and tape decks. You can't sell what no-one's buying.

They say Vinyl is coming back in, though. :thumbup:

Seriously, I'm not saying that unreconstructed Old Labour should return, but there needs to be something fresh on the left side of politics to offer an alternative to nationalism and a 'labour' party that only represents the views of the new ruling class and their cohorts of gobby middle-class cheerleaders.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

A mild market-sensitive form of socialism is possible. Labour's problem is the people on the left who join to overthrow capitalism and find this is impossible. The collapse of the Soviet Union and its satellite states was the worst possible advertising for those who believed in the inevitable triumph of the left,and showed up exactly what they'd done with power when they had a monopoly of it.

UKIP may well have had its highpoint, unless May drifts too far into the centre and ignores concerns on immigration and so forth. The name tells you its purpose and that purpose, by their own admission, has been achieved by Brexit.

[Burney]

A mild market-sensitive form of socialism is possible. Labour's problem is the people on the left who join to overthrow capitalism and find this is impossible. The collapse of the Soviet Union and its satellite states was the worst possible advertising for those who believed in the inevitable triumph of the left,and showed up exactly what they'd done with power when they had a monopoly of it.

UKIP may well have had its highpoint, unless May drifts too far into the centre and ignores concerns on immigration and so forth. The name tells you its purpose and that purpose, by their own admission, has been achieved by Brexit.

Well this is the thing, isn't it? 'The left' is now a meaningless term, encompassing as it does everyone from market capitalists with a social agenda to people who want to storm Buckingham Palace and run the country via Soviet. The idea that such a broad church can be represented by a single party is patently absurd.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

Yes, but it's unlikely to lead to permanent Tory rule. People don't like one-party states even when there are theoretical alternatives. If the left (and I agree left/right is now largely meaningless) fragments, so will the other side.