We're not a bad lot really, are we?

[Sir C]

We have, effectively, a power vacuum at the top of governement, there is no functioning opposition party, 50% of the population are angry with the other 50%, and we're facing the biggest political, constitutional and economic changes in 70 years.

In most other countries there would be tanks on the streets now. There would be barricades and petrol bombs.

We put the kettle on and have a whinge on social media.

wd Brits. :clap:

[Pat Vegas]

I thought you were talking about Awimb :-(

[Burney]

We have, effectively, a power vacuum at the top of governement, there is no functioning opposition party, 50% of the population are angry with the other 50%, and we're facing the biggest political, constitutional and economic changes in 70 years.

In most other countries there would be tanks on the streets now. There would be barricades and petrol bombs.

We put the kettle on and have a whinge on social media.

wd Brits. :clap:

Well it's only politics at the end of the day, isn't it? All good fun, really. Nothing serious. :shrug:

My favourite thing is the odd bedfellows it's created, with southern, middle-class Tory Brexiteers speaking of their damp-eyed solidarity with white, working class northerners who've never voted Tory in their lives and Guardianista lefties suddenly letting the mask slip to reveal their rampant snobbery, ageism and anti-democratic instincts to side with the likes of Goldman Sachs against the uppity oiks. It's hilarious, really. :hehe:

[Ash]

My favourite thing is the odd bedfellows it's created, with southern, middle-class Tory Brexiteers speaking of their damp-eyed solidarity with white, working class northerners who've never voted Tory in their lives and Guardianista lefties suddenly letting the mask slip to reveal their rampant snobbery, ageism and anti-democratic instincts to side with the likes of Goldman Sachs against the uppity oiks. It's hilarious, really. :hehe:

I have been saying for nearly 20 years that the old notions of left and right are not applicable as they were, and that the current establishment is not the establishment of old. When what considers itself the Left lines up behind the IMF, World Bank, CBI, plus every capitalist and financial institution going, and siding with the leaderships of the three main parties, 80% of MPs, almost all the newspapers and the entire 'luvvie' celebrity class, and against what they consider to be "the mob", you know we are living in Interesting Times.

[Burney]

I have been saying for nearly 20 years that the old notions of left and right are not applicable as they were, and that the current establishment is not the establishment of old. When what considers itself the Left lines up behind the IMF, World Bank, CBI, plus every capitalist and financial institution going, and siding with the leaderships of the three main parties, 80% of MPs, almost all the newspapers and the entire 'luvvie' celebrity class, and against what they consider to be "the mob", you know we are living in Interesting Times.

Yes. I was musing yesterday that we may be moving into a post-democratic era where people view convenience, wealth and comfort as being vastly more important than something as abstract as democracy. During the referendum, I lost count of the number of people to whom I outlined my objections to the undemocratic nature of the EU only for them to largely agree, but say 'Yes, but it doesn't really matter, does it?' (or words to that effect). They care more about cheap flights and weekend city breaks than they do about fundamental principles of government and the EU it seems to me, is largely predicated on the idea that if you keep the middle classes happy, they'll stop caring about democracy*. They seem largely to be right. :-(

*Until such time as something happens they don't like and they wake up to the fact that there's **** all they can do about it, of course.

[Ash]

Yes. I was musing yesterday that we may be moving into a post-democratic era where people view convenience, wealth and comfort as being vastly more important than something as abstract as democracy. During the referendum, I lost count of the number of people to whom I outlined my objections to the undemocratic nature of the EU only for them to largely agree, but say 'Yes, but it doesn't really matter, does it?' (or words to that effect). They care more about cheap flights and weekend city breaks than they do about fundamental principles of government and the EU it seems to me, is largely predicated on the idea that if you keep the middle classes happy, they'll stop caring about democracy*. They seem largely to be right. :-(

*Until such time as something happens they don't like and they wake up to the fact that there's **** all they can do about it, of course.

Do these people remember the Berlin Wall? Perhaps those of us who do value democracy more. I have been keeping my head down at work but soon the next person who ways they want this overturned might hear a little word or two about Chartists and Suffragettes.

[Burney]

Do these people remember the Berlin Wall? Perhaps those of us who do value democracy more. I have been keeping my head down at work but soon the next person who ways they want this overturned might hear a little word or two about Chartists and Suffragettes.

Ironically, although many of those who voted to Remain are among the first to moan about globalisation and neoliberal capitalism, they are in many cases its beneficiaries and - by voting Remain - were voting to support it.

[redgunamo]

Do these people remember the Berlin Wall? Perhaps those of us who do value democracy more. I have been keeping my head down at work but soon the next person who ways they want this overturned might hear a little word or two about Chartists and Suffragettes.

Yeah, but the Germans (from either side really, but especially the west) would never have voted in favour of re-unification. Ossies are thick, lazy, spoilt *******s, according to them. Hardly German at all, and so they've had to foot the bill for the whole fiasco.

[Burney]

Yeah, but the Germans (from either side really, but especially the west) would never have voted in favour of re-unification. Ossies are thick, lazy, spoilt *******s, according to them. Hardly German at all, and so they've had to foot the bill for the whole fiasco.

When talking to Eastern Europeans of my acquaintance about my reasons for voting Leave, they struggle to grasp why I find the EU insufficiently democratic. But then, as I've pointed out, many of them were born under communism, so their expectations of what constitutes democracy are pretty ****ing low.

[eastgermanautos]

I would have thought you were highly in favor of Brexit. No? Change of heart?

[Burney]

I would have thought you were highly in favor of Brexit. No? Change of heart?

Who are you asking here, ega?

[Sir C]

I would have thought you were highly in favor of Brexit. No? Change of heart?

I was ambivalent, seeing merit in both sides of the argument and possibly a little fearful of the potential issues with leaving.

Now that the decision has been made, I'm in favour of going with it and making the best of it.

[eastgermanautos]

Who are you asking here, ega?

Charlie. But don't hesitate to jump in. Actually, I don't want to come across as a complete prick. It's kind of a messed up situation. And this producer I know is not able to contribute to my movie, so it's collateral damage for me as well. She's still going to help me pitch something to the BBC though. :-/

[Burney]

Charlie. But don't hesitate to jump in. Actually, I don't want to come across as a complete prick. It's kind of a messed up situation. And this producer I know is not able to contribute to my movie, so it's collateral damage for me as well. She's still going to help me pitch something to the BBC though. :-/

Oh I voted Leave. I've found the EU's increasingly dominant role in British public life offensive for many years and jumped at the chance to **** them off.

[redgunamo]

When talking to Eastern Europeans of my acquaintance about my reasons for voting Leave, they struggle to grasp why I find the EU insufficiently democratic. But then, as I've pointed out, many of them were born under communism, so their expectations of what constitutes democracy are pretty ****ing low.

Right. And frightening too, all that personal responsibility.

See, it's not just about voting, is it. It's about having control over your own life and dealing with the consequences of your own decisions. They are simply not used to this and it terrifies them.

They think we're all terribly brave :hehe:

Which, I suppose, we *are* :-\

[Alexism - Atheoist]

So B, as I'm trying to get a complete picture of this issue, could you elaborate a bit on the undemocratic aspects of the EU that drove you away?

And I've heard a couple of times that this referendum isn't binding? What's the story there?

[Burney]

Right. And frightening too, all that personal responsibility.

See, it's not just about voting, is it. It's about having control over your own life and dealing with the consequences of your own decisions. They are simply not used to this and it terrifies them.

They think we're all terribly brave :hehe:

Which, I suppose, we *are* :-\

We're quite pig-headed, I suppose. Which amounts to the same thing, when push comes to shove.

[eastgermanautos]

Oh I voted Leave. I've found the EU's increasingly dominant role in British public life offensive for many years and jumped at the chance to **** them off.

Okay. .....

[eastgermanautos]

Okay. .....

Not actually expressive of doubt. Just that I was trying to get ten characters.

[Snin]

The belgiums keep going with no government at all..the itlaians are pretty good at making do with no one in power and just welcoming whoever sweeps in ( a'la classic line in Catch 22 ..under facists we were the best fac etc ) ..i think its just really the french, germans and greeks who lose the plot..the ruskis just keep on keeping on too..think its human nature..weused to just live for our village at the end of day and our house is our castle

[Burney]

So B, as I'm trying to get a complete picture of this issue, could you elaborate a bit on the undemocratic aspects of the EU that drove you away?

And I've heard a couple of times that this referendum isn't binding? What's the story there?


The sole body within the EU that can propose legislation is the Commission, which is composed of unelected appointees and hordes of civil servants. They control the entire legislative direction of the institution and are completely unaccountable to Europe's people.
When you vote in a state, congressional or presidential election, you vote for a set of legislative proposals, don't you? And, by doing so (if your side wins) you to some extent get to control the direction in which legislation goes over the next few years. And, if your representatives let you down, you can kick them out. No such opportunity exists within the EU.
The nearest we have (had) are EU Parliamentary elections, where you vote for a party whose voice is then invariably drowned out in the Babel of a parliament that vaguely represents the disparate views of 27 member states of 500 million people with just 736 members (the maths will tell you just how inadequately represented the people therefore are), who are elected by tiny turnouts (around 35% on average, I believe) and who can do little to influence the direction in which the EU moves, since they are part of an entirely reactive body with absolutely no power to propose legislation, merely to amend or (in very rare cases) block it. Essentially, people in Europe barely vote for this parliament because they know it is pointless.
The only other body worthy of note is the Council of Ministers, which is composed of the leading Ministers of member states. Again, this body can only react to the overall legislative direction of things and the voice of one country is usually drowned out.
In addition to this, large sections of British Law have been superseded by EU law in recent years - these are laws that have not been approved by the electorate of this country and yet still govern us.
There is a vast democratic deficit within the EU. Essentially, we are being governed from afar without adequate representation or redress - something to which I believe your countrymen objected some time ago.

[Burney]

Not actually expressive of doubt. Just that I was trying to get ten characters.


Sure. Sorry to hear about your funding, though.

[eastgermanautos]

The belgiums keep going with no government at all..the itlaians are pretty good at making do with no one in power and just welcoming whoever sweeps in ( a'la classic line in Catch 22 ..under facists we were the best fac etc ) ..i think its just really the french, germans and greeks who lose the plot..the ruskis just keep on keeping on too..think its human nature..weused to just live for our village at the end of day and our house is our castle

I think that Sir Walter Raleigh would have taken exception to your views.

[Ash]

See, it's not just about voting, is it. It's about having control over your own life and dealing with the consequences of your own decisions. They are simply not used to this and it terrifies them.


This is the advantage of voting for the losing side in elections and things. You get to bitch and moan and blame other peope if anything goes wrong.

[Snin]

he can get on his bike imo .. his pretty average bike at that

[redgunamo]

This is the advantage of voting for the losing side in elections and things. You get to bitch and moan and blame other peope if anything goes wrong.

No, you don't, A. Loyal opposition and a' that.

You shake hands, say Well Played and then invite the winner for a pint. There *is* no losing side; we're all on the *same* side.

Behaving like an abandoned wife does no good at all.

[redgunamo]

Yes. I was musing yesterday that we may be moving into a post-democratic era where people view convenience, wealth and comfort as being vastly more important than something as abstract as democracy. During the referendum, I lost count of the number of people to whom I outlined my objections to the undemocratic nature of the EU only for them to largely agree, but say 'Yes, but it doesn't really matter, does it?' (or words to that effect). They care more about cheap flights and weekend city breaks than they do about fundamental principles of government and the EU it seems to me, is largely predicated on the idea that if you keep the middle classes happy, they'll stop caring about democracy*. They seem largely to be right. :-(

*Until such time as something happens they don't like and they wake up to the fact that there's **** all they can do about it, of course.

That time has already come, I'm afraid. People handed over sovereignty over their own lives to the companies that employ them to the point that beggared their future prospects, while their firms have made hay through globalisation.

Somehow people forgot the difference between work, or working, and actually, simply, just making money. And, for decades now, have voted and acted accordingly.

I suppose it's what Jorge was on about when he claimed the middle classes have been taking it in the arse for decades. Thing is though, they've actually done it to themselves :-\

[Burney]

Oh. Bugger. :-(

[redgunamo]

Oh. Bugger. :-(

Oh, it's actually true? I was just talking for the birds; thought I'd been watching too many heist movies .. :-(