Donald Tusk seems very fond of Rumours.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

wibblewibble

[The Jorge]

wibblewibble

'Tusk' and 'Rumours'? Someone's a big Fleetwood Mac fan

[Mo Britain less Europe]

How come you guessed that? It's a Mystery to Me.

[Luis Anaconda]

'Tusk' and 'Rumours'? Someone's a big Fleetwood Mac fan

M does like to Go his own way

[Luis Anaconda]

wibblewibble
Rumours or Little Lies?

[Mo Britain less Europe]

I can't help feeling frustrated you don't all see how the EU is an Albatross round our necks.

[Billy Goat Sverige]

wibblewibble

I see Osborne has been doing some more scaremongering today. I think they've overplayed that hand now. It seems to be getting voters backs up and pushing the undecided more towards voting to leave.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

I see Osborne has been doing some more scaremongering today. I think they've overplayed that hand now. It seems to be getting voters backs up and pushing the undecided more towards voting to leave.

Oh Well.....

[The Jorge]

I see Osborne has been doing some more scaremongering today. I think they've overplayed that hand now. It seems to be getting voters backs up and pushing the undecided more towards voting to leave.

What a time to stop believing Osborne's ****, eh?

[Mo Britain less Europe]

What a time to stop believing Osborne's ****, eh?

It's Not That Funny is it?

[Billy Goat Sverige]

What a time to stop believing Osborne's ****, eh?

I saw this a little earlier. Quite a good read..

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/george-osborne-threatens-punish-voters-tax-rises-defy-brexit/

[The Jorge]

It's Not That Funny is it?

No, I dont think it is. He's scaremongering but I dont think he's too far off the truth.

Something like 30bn has been wiped off of the FTSE value in the last few weeks alone.

Mind you, you'll all get to wave your little plastic flags and sing about how great the queen is.

[The Jorge]

I saw this a little earlier. Quite a good read..

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/george-osborne-threatens-punish-voters-tax-rises-defy-brexit/

This whole business has made everyone behave totally out of character. I've just read that the Speccy have started advocating "borrow and stimulate" approaches to economic downturns.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

No, I dont think it is. He's scaremongering but I dont think he's too far off the truth.

Something like 30bn has been wiped off of the FTSE value in the last few weeks alone.

Mind you, you'll all get to wave your little plastic flags and sing about how great the queen is.

To be fair she was a Beautiful Child.

[The Jorge]

To be fair she was a Beautiful Child.

Oh Daddy


jhvhjv

[Burney]

What a time to stop believing Osborne's ****, eh?

The Remain campaign has been appallingly judged. It has seemingly taken no account of the public mood and simply kept trying to bully the electorate with ever more dire warnings and threats. It has come across as arrogant, threatening, mendacious and patronising. This has been entirely counter-productive, as it has made much of the country dig its heels in, stick its jaw out and prepare to stick two fingers up to the increasingly disconnected political and corporate class.
The better option would have been to concentrate on the superficial things that people like about the EU (not having to worry about lots of different currencies when going abroad, ease of travel, etc), but it's too late for that now.

[The Jorge]

The Remain campaign has been appallingly judged. It has seemingly taken no account of the public mood and simply kept trying to bully the electorate with ever more dire warnings and threats. It has come across as arrogant, threatening, mendacious and patronising. This has been entirely counter-productive, as it has made much of the country dig its heels in, stick its jaw out and prepare to stick two fingers up to the increasingly disconnected political and corporate class.
The better option would have been to concentrate on the superficial things that people like about the EU (not having to worry about lots of different currencies when going abroad, ease of travel, etc), but it's too late for that now.

That's mostly fair enough, I'm just amazed that people have managed to see through these ****s at the worst time possible. I've said all along that they'd lead us out of Yerp and I do suspect it's almost an act of deliberate self-sabotage.

Though I like the idea you arent one of the "political and corporate class"

[Burney]

That's mostly fair enough, I'm just amazed that people have managed to see through these ****s at the worst time possible. I've said all along that they'd lead us out of Yerp and I do suspect it's almost an act of deliberate self-sabotage.

Though I like the idea you arent one of the "political and corporate class"

I wish, mate. They're much richer than me. :-)

Mind you, Labour hasn't come out of this terribly well either. Corbyn actually had an opportunity to appear to be in touch with the electorate for once, by following his actual beliefs and campaigning to leave. Instead, he's fudged it and pretended to be pro-Remain, which has only had the effect of making him look weak, uncertain and prepared to shelve his much-vaunted principles to keep his party happy. As it is, he's got every chance of ending up on the losing side of the argument without even having demonstrated a principled stance.

[The Jorge]

I wish, mate. They're much richer than me. :-)

Mind you, Labour hasn't come out of this terribly well either. Corbyn actually had an opportunity to appear to be in touch with the electorate for once, by following his actual beliefs and campaigning to leave. Instead, he's fudged it and pretended to be pro-Remain, which has only had the effect of making him look weak, uncertain and prepared to shelve his much-vaunted principles to keep his party happy. As it is, he's got every chance of ending up on the losing side of the argument without even having demonstrated a principled stance.

I think he knows full well what the Leave end game is though. If only the rest of the people voting Out werent so fixated on a flat out hatred of foreigners they'd realise they're voting to surrender a massive amount of employment and civil rights.

[Burney]

I think he knows full well what the Leave end game is though. If only the rest of the people voting Out werent so fixated on a flat out hatred of foreigners they'd realise they're voting to surrender a massive amount of employment and civil rights.

Going back to your 'seeing through them' thing, I'm not sure you're quite right there. Politics is largely a question of seeing which way the public is going and then getting in front of them and saying 'Follow me!' Cameron and Osborne have found themselves in this campaign having to try and drag a public that is at best ambivalent about and at worst viscerally opposed to the EU in a direction they don't much want to go. In doing so, they have built up huge personal resentment towards them. By contrast, the last two elections were a case of taking the country in a direction it was already going.

However this vote goes, Cameron and Osborne are Finnish imo. They have expended vast amounts of political capital on a largely unpopular cause and they will not be forgiven by their core, grassroots supporters.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

Going back to your 'seeing through them' thing, I'm not sure you're quite right there. Politics is largely a question of seeing which way the public is going and then getting in front of them and saying 'Follow me!' Cameron and Osborne have found themselves in this campaign having to try and drag a public that is at best ambivalent about and at worst viscerally opposed to the EU in a direction they don't much want to go. In doing so, they have built up huge personal resentment towards them. By contrast, the last two elections were a case of taking the country in a direction it was already going.

However this vote goes, Cameron and Osborne are Finnish imo. They have expended vast amounts of political capital on a largely unpopular cause and they will not be forgiven by their core, grassroots supporters.

Cameron and Osborne are dead meat. It's either PM Johnson or PM Corbyn next (that's why he's so lukewarm about his professed support for Remain).

There is a huge crisis in the complete loss of faith in the politicians but they still control the system. They can only be overthrown by a political insurgency but there is always the danger the insurgents are fakes or are seduced and go native. Or that you unleash such waves of populism that it will lead to mob rule.

[Ash]

The Remain campaign has been appallingly judged. It has seemingly taken no account of the public mood and simply kept trying to bully the electorate with ever more dire warnings and threats. It has come across as arrogant, threatening, mendacious and patronising. This has been entirely counter-productive, as it has made much of the country dig its heels in, stick its jaw out and prepare to stick two fingers up to the increasingly disconnected political and corporate class.
The better option would have been to concentrate on the superficial things that people like about the EU (not having to worry about lots of different currencies when going abroad, ease of travel, etc), but it's too late for that now.

Where are you seeing this defiance, btw?

I admit to not devouring this debate in every media source, and it might be that people I have been associating with in the last couple of months have been predominantly yer right-on liberal middle-class types, but the mood I get from them is than anyone considering Brexit is utter scum.

[Ash]

I wish, mate. They're much richer than me. :-)

Mind you, Labour hasn't come out of this terribly well either. Corbyn actually had an opportunity to appear to be in touch with the electorate for once, by following his actual beliefs and campaigning to leave. Instead, he's fudged it and pretended to be pro-Remain, which has only had the effect of making him look weak, uncertain and prepared to shelve his much-vaunted principles to keep his party happy. As it is, he's got every chance of ending up on the losing side of the argument without even having demonstrated a principled stance.

He would have been slaughtered for not toeing the party line on this, though, by the people who have been slaughtering him for everything from his principles to his appearance over the last six months.

I am disappointed, of course, and this is the kind of reason why I preferred him as an MP, and why I voted for him as my MP, so that he could take his position on such things without a huge You Can't Say That as leader of the party thing going on.

Having said that, there is something commendable in his luke-warm campaign so far, his talking up the nice things, without the fearmongering and worse, sanctimonious finger pointing. He has also come out against TTIP, claiming that his government would oppose and veto it (assuming that is possible). If Remain win, that could win Labour the next election, if they don't stab him in the back first.

[Burney]

Where are you seeing this defiance, btw?

I admit to not devouring this debate in every media source, and it might be that people I have been associating with in the last couple of months have been predominantly yer right-on liberal middle-class types, but the mood I get from them is than anyone considering Brexit is utter scum.

Ah, but you see I don't live in North London. :-) The other day outside Tesco I heard an apparently frail old lady giving some Remain **** in a t-shirt who told her she was being lied to by the media an absolute verbal kicking. It did my heart good :-D

[Ash]

I think he knows full well what the Leave end game is though. If only the rest of the people voting Out werent so fixated on a flat out hatred of foreigners they'd realise they're voting to surrender a massive amount of employment and civil rights.

This where Corbyn understand working class concerns, though. You won't see him playing the xenophopbia card at every turn. On the contrary, he recognises that it is true that large influxes of people puts a strain on resouces in the immediacy, and that while the best solution is to be able to provide the new level of resources, people aren't just being evil racists for being concerned about them.

I have been reading in some detail about the arrival of the Hugenots in London in the 17th Century. While the long term benefits are of course beyond dispute, the short-term consequences were pretty painful for a lot of people. Those that wanted them the most were the rich and powerful, who wanted to wear the finest silks and could afford them. Those who lost their livelihoods and starved did not benefit at first.

[The Jorge]

This where Corbyn understand working class concerns, though. You won't see him playing the xenophopbia card at every turn. On the contrary, he recognises that it is true that large influxes of people puts a strain on resouces in the immediacy, and that while the best solution is to be able to provide the new level of resources, people aren't just being evil racists for being concerned about them.

I have been reading in some detail about the arrival of the Hugenots in London in the 17th Century. While the long term benefits are of course beyond dispute, the short-term consequences were pretty painful for a lot of people. Those that wanted them the most were the rich and powerful, who wanted to wear the finest silks and could afford them. Those who lost their livelihoods and starved did not benefit at first.

This whole "strain on resources" thing is a red herring in itself though. Where the Hugenots thing differs massively is that both the LSE and the IFS have published studies saying that immigration from EU countries has not placed a strain on public services, and certainly not when placed alongside the real strains that ridiculous government cuts have, and that immigrants are far less likely to be a net burden than your indigenousers.

[Burney]

This whole "strain on resources" thing is a red herring in itself though. Where the Hugenots thing differs massively is that both the LSE and the IFS have published studies saying that immigration from EU countries has not placed a strain on public services, and certainly not when placed alongside the real strains that ridiculous government cuts have, and that immigrants are far less likely to be a net burden than your indigenousers.

Yes, but nobody believes figures from the IFS or the LSE, since they're known to be biased. :shrug:

[Ash]

This whole "strain on resources" thing is a red herring in itself though. Where the Hugenots thing differs massively is that both the LSE and the IFS have published studies saying that immigration from EU countries has not placed a strain on public services, and certainly not when placed alongside the real strains that ridiculous government cuts have, and that immigrants are far less likely to be a net burden than your indigenousers.

Do those reports say there is enough housing to go around? Prices seem to suggest otherwise.

[The Jorge]

Yes, but nobody believes figures from the IFS or the LSE, since they're known to be biased. :shrug:

:hehe: Yes, biased in as much as they received very small sums for taking part in europe wide programmes amounting to peanuts, and were totally transparent about it and even included the fact on the website report page.

**** me, you myopic brexiters

[The Jorge]

Do those reports say there is enough housing to go around? Prices seem to suggest otherwise.

Do you really think that's due to immigration? It's worth its own thread, that

[Burney]

:hehe: Yes, biased in as much as they received very small sums for taking part in europe wide programmes amounting to peanuts, and were totally transparent about it and even included the fact on the website report page.

**** me, you myopic brexiters

And you're naive if you believe that direct funding is the only way the EU exerts influence over opinion-forming bodies like that.

There's always a nice little stipend with the Commission or on some Advisory Group if you keep coming up with the right answers and trotting out the pro-EU line. The thing is corrupt to its core.

[The Jorge]

And you're naive if you believe that direct funding is the only way the EU exerts influence over opinion-forming bodies like that.

There's always a nice little stipend with the Commission or on some Advisory Group if you keep coming up with the right answers and trotting out the pro-EU line. The thing is corrupt to its core.

:hehe: of course it is, but I'm prepared to wager a fair amount of our soon-to-be-Weimar-marklike currency that it's a great deal more transparent than the Aaron Banks funded Leave campaign.

[Burney]

:hehe: of course it is, but I'm prepared to wager a fair amount of our soon-to-be-Weimar-marklike currency that it's a great deal more transparent than the Aaron Banks funded Leave campaign.

'Weimar-like currency'? :hehe: This from the guy who claims the Leave campaign lies?

Also, the Leave campaign is just that - a campaign group. The EU is a supra-national governmental body. The first isn't required to meet exacting standards of fiscal transparency. The second is - but of course doesn't.

[The Jorge]

And you're naive if you believe that direct funding is the only way the EU exerts influence over opinion-forming bodies like that.

There's always a nice little stipend with the Commission or on some Advisory Group if you keep coming up with the right answers and trotting out the pro-EU line. The thing is corrupt to its core.

You're as bad as Ash, that was hyperbole for comedic effect.

Banks is on record as saying the NHS should be privatised, watch him make some serious hay should the sun shine fortuitously post-brexit. He's bent as a nine bob note, which is why he's found such willing bedfellows with people like Grayling, IDS and Gove.

Also, is £30bn off the stock market this week a Remainian lie?

[Burney]

You're as bad as Ash, that was hyperbole for comedic effect.

Banks is on record as saying the NHS should be privatised, watch him make some serious hay should the sun shine fortuitously post-brexit. He's bent as a nine bob note, which is why he's found such willing bedfellows with people like Grayling, IDS and Gove.

Also, is £30bn off the stock market this week a Remainian lie?

The stock markets always hate change. It spooks them. Then they recover. It's not a reason not to do something.

And I've no problem with the NHS being privatised :shrug:

[The Jorge]

And I've no problem with the NHS being privatised :shrug:

:retardedrolleyessmiley:

[Burney]

:retardedrolleyessmiley:

:shrug: It's hardly a novel position from me, is it?

[The Jorge]

:shrug: It's hardly a novel position from me, is it?

No, you are truly the loyalest of subjects

[redgunamo]

And you're naive if you believe that direct funding is the only way the EU exerts influence over opinion-forming bodies like that.

There's always a nice little stipend with the Commission or on some Advisory Group if you keep coming up with the right answers and trotting out the pro-EU line. The thing is corrupt to its core.

*From* its core, imo.

[Burney]

*From* its core, imo.

Fair point.

Nice hols?

[redgunamo]

Fair point.

Nice hols?

Going to see Axel Rose & AC/DC tonight :-|

[Burney]

Going to see Axel Rose & AC/DC tonight :-|

Ah. Yes. That. Bad business. Still, a man's got to do what a man's got to do.

[Ash]

Do you really think that's due to immigration? It's worth its own thread, that

Answering a question by asking a different question. You should be a politician. :hehe:

[The Jorge]

Answering a question by asking a different question. You should be a politician. :hehe:

Why do you think that. Ash?

Also, you realise you asked a question before that, yes?

[Ash]

*From* its core, imo.

Oh, well bowled.

[Ash]

Why do you think that. Ash?

Also, you realise you asked a question before that, yes?

Supply and demand. There are lots of reasons for house price inflation. Not building enough houses is part of it. London being such a great place to live that people from all over want to live here is another. London being a property money-laundering capital is another, of course.

And my question was in response to a statement, not a question. :ner:

[The Jorge]

Supply and demand. There are lots of reasons for house price inflation. Not building enough houses is part of it. London being such a great place to live that people from all over want to live here is another. London being a property money-laundering capital is another, of course.

And my question was in response to a statement, not a question. :ner:

Do you honestly think that's a fair summation of matters?