This is just getting silly now. Donald Tusk is claiming Brexit could lead to the

[Burney]

downfall of western civilisation :hehe:

I suppose we should be flattered, really. People are always queuing up to tell us how irrelevant and insignificant the UK is and now here we are holding the fate of civilisation in our hands...

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Ash]

downfall of western civilisation :hehe:

I suppose we should be flattered, really. People are always queuing up to tell us how irrelevant and insignificant the UK is and now here we are holding the fate of civilisation in our hands...

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I'm expecting Cameron will sternly warn us soon that the sky will literally fall on our heads if we leave.

[Burney]

I'm expecting Cameron will sternly warn us soon that the sky will literally fall on our heads if we leave.

Yes. They're relying on the idea that constant repetition of prophecies of doom will have a cumulative effect, but I'm not sure they're right. I'm not sure the law of diminishing returns doesn't come into play here.

[SWv2]

The bloke from House of Cards?

[Billy Goat Sverige]

The bloke from House of Cards.

Ready for a beating? HEJA SVERIGE!!!

[SWv2]

Ready for a beating? HEJA SVERIGE!!!

You can **** off you IKEA ****.

#COYBIG

[Billy Goat Sverige]

You can **** off you IKEA ****.

#COYBIG

:hehe: I did laugh this morning. Chaps on morning TV were predicting two and three goal margins. The teams are evenly matched but for the big nosed **** up front.

[SWv2]

1-1 and the worst game so far would be my guess.

I do love a bit of Zlatan all the same, might keep that to myself for the next 2 hours. I got into shedloads of bother when Henry did his handball.

[Burney]

1-1 and the worst game so far would be my guess.

I do love a bit of Zlatan all the same, might keep that to myself for the next 2 hours. I got into shedloads of bother when Henry did his handball.

I've got Sweden in my sweepstake, so Ireland can **** off imo. One's ancestry is one thing, but money is another.

[Luis Anaconda]

1-1 and the worst game so far would be my guess.

I do love a bit of Zlatan all the same, might keep that to myself for the next 2 hours. I got into shedloads of bother when Henry did his handball.
First bit was right - not sure about the second. Though as it was the first game I've watched I guess I could agree. Particularly as the second one was Belgium Italy - that was a corker :)

[eastgermanautos]

First bit was right - not sure about the second. Though as it was the first game I've watched I guess I could agree. Particularly as the second one was Belgium Italy - that was a corker :)

I love that you have somebody named Donald Tusk.

[Alberto Balsam Rodriguez]

While there are some rather over the top predictions coming from the Remain group, the Brexit team have still failed to deliver one valid reason to leave.

[eastgermanautos]

I can think of one. A recollection of the ill effects of the Hundred Years War.

[Burney]

While there are some rather over the top predictions coming from the Remain group, the Brexit team have still failed to deliver one valid reason to leave.

The one unarguably valid reason to leave - and the reason I will be voting to do so - is that the EU is an undemocratic institution that utterly undermines the sovereignty of Parliament. The only body within it that can propose law is an unelected Commission, meaning that its entire legislative agenda is set not by the people of Europe, but by a technocratic body with zero electoral or democratic mandate. That is not democracy by any stretch of the imagination.

It all depends whether you care about democracy or not, I guess. I do, so I will be voting to get the hell out of the stinking, rotten organisation.

[The Jorge]

1-1 and the worst game so far would be my guess.

I do love a bit of Zlatan all the same, might keep that to myself for the next 2 hours. I got into shedloads of bother when Henry did his handball.

And there speaks a man who didnt watch the Norn Iron game.

[The Jorge]

downfall of western civilisation :hehe:

I suppose we should be flattered, really. People are always queuing up to tell us how irrelevant and insignificant the UK is and now here we are holding the fate of civilisation in our hands...

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Nearly, neeeeeeeearly as fanciful as the idea that, if we do leave, they'll spend £100m a week more on the NHS and match the funding for farmers and education.

[eastgermanautos]

Come come, my dear man. Democracy is naught but the tyranny of the majority. What's needed is a timocracy.

[Burney]

Nearly, neeeeeeeearly as fanciful as the idea that, if we do leave, they'll spend £100m a week more on the NHS and match the funding for farmers and education.

People on the Remain side seem to be getting confused about this referendum. It's a referendum - not an election campaign. The leave campaign is not a prospective government and is therefore not required to outline spending plans. All they have to do is outline an argument as to why being in the EU is a bad thing - something they are doing rather effectively at the moment.

[The Jorge]

People on the Remain side seem to be getting confused about this referendum. It's a referendum - not an election campaign. The leave campaign is not a prospective government and is therefore not required to outline spending plans. All they have to do is outline an argument as to why being in the EU is a bad thing - something they are doing rather effectively at the moment.

You're kidding me, right? You think it's the remain side who are confused about whether it's an election or referendum when you have a Boris jostling for a position as the next PM and Gove, Patel and IDS promising they'll spend all of this money from a phoney figure on the NHS?

I'm not so sure they are actually doing a very good job of convincing people the EU is a bad thing. They seem to be mostly focussing on xenophobia and lies.

[Pokster]

Nearly, neeeeeeeearly as fanciful as the idea that, if we do leave, they'll spend £100m a week more on the NHS and match the funding for farmers and education.

errr.... whatever the outcome we will still have a Tory Govt and a majority of MP's who support remian... so who knows what spending plans will take place if we leave, we don't even know if Dave would resign (he should)

[The Jorge]

errr.... whatever the outcome we will still have a Tory Govt and a majority of MP's who support remian... so who knows what spending plans will take place if we leave, we don't even know if Dave would resign (he should)

Indeed, the idea that this bunch of ****s want to do anything but strip the NHS bare, let alone "stand up to the elites", is just utterly amazing.

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/AB6E/production/_88368834_88368833.jpg

[Pokster]

You're kidding me, right? You think it's the remain side who are confused about whether it's an election or referendum when you have a Boris jostling for a position as the next PM and Gove, Patel and IDS promising they'll spend all of this money from a phoney figure on the NHS?

I'm not so sure they are actually doing a very good job of convincing people the EU is a bad thing. They seem to be mostly focussing on xenophobia and lies.

Both sides are failing to convince anyone about anything (apart from the lies both sides have been spouting)... if psople focussed on the economy then remain would win, if they concentrate on immigration the leave will win

[Burney]

You're kidding me, right? You think it's the remain side who are confused about whether it's an election or referendum when you have a Boris jostling for a position as the next PM and Gove, Patel and IDS promising they'll spend all of this money from a phoney figure on the NHS?

I'm not so sure they are actually doing a very good job of convincing people the EU is a bad thing. They seem to be mostly focussing on xenophobia and lies.

The fact that the question of the EU represents a struggle for the heart of the Conservative Party is hardly a new thing, j. Of course there's jockeying for position, but that is not an issue that matters to most of the people who are going to vote in this referendum. As far as the economics are concerned, the waters are so muddied (because the brutal truth is that no-one knows what's going to happen if we vote out) as to essentially stalemate and thereby neuter the issue altogether.

Oh, and the lazy and patronising categorisation by Remain of people's genuine concerns about sovereignty and immigration as 'xenophobia and lies' has been a huge help to the Leave campaign, illustrating as it does just how out of touch Remain is from people's everyday concerns. Please keep it up until polling day. :thumbup:

[The Jorge]

Both sides are failing to convince anyone about anything (apart from the lies both sides have been spouting)... if psople focussed on the economy then remain would win, if they concentrate on immigration the leave will win

I cant disagree there, and it doesnt bode well for the remain camp that Gordon "Midas Touch" Brown has been wheeled out to bring his easy charm and rictus grin to proceedings.

I do think it's slightly amazing that we're seemingly sleepwalking into a massive economic shock though, less than a decade after one of biggest depressions we've ever known too, purely on the basis of prejudice by and large.

[The Jorge]

The fact that the question of the EU represents a struggle for the heart of the Conservative Party is hardly a new thing, j. Of course there's jockeying for position, but that is not an issue that matters to most of the people who are going to vote in this referendum. As far as the economics are concerned, the waters are so muddied (because the brutal truth is that no-one knows what's going to happen if we vote out) as to essentially stalemate and thereby neuter the issue altogether.

Oh, and the lazy and patronising categorisation by Remain of people's genuine concerns about sovereignty and immigration as 'xenophobia and lies' has been a huge help to the Leave campaign, illustrating as it does just how out of touch Remain is from people's everyday concerns. Please keep it up until polling day. :thumbup:

This isnt lying or xenophobia then? Also, I think it's worth pointing out that 94% of economists think leaving the EU will have a negative effect on the economy in the short and medium term.

http://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/article_large/public/thumbnails/image/2016/06/13/13/untitled.png

[Burney]

I cant disagree there, and it doesnt bode well for the remain camp that Gordon "Midas Touch" Brown has been wheeled out to bring his easy charm and rictus grin to proceedings.

I do think it's slightly amazing that we're seemingly sleepwalking into a massive economic shock though, less than a decade after one of biggest depressions we've ever known too, purely on the basis of prejudice by and large.

What I find more amazing is the sight of your own resident revolutionary decrying and deriding the people's expression of a deep-seated and long-held frustration with a remote and largely unaccountable elite who they feel have wielded too much power over them for too long. I would have thought that would have been right up your Straße, tbh.

Funny old game, politics, innit? :hehe:

[The Jorge]

What I find more amazing is the sight of your own resident revolutionary decrying and deriding the people's expression of a deep-seated and long-held frustration with a remote and largely unaccountable elite who they feel have wielded too much power over them for too long. I would have thought that would have been right up your Straße, tbh.

Funny old game, politics, innit? :hehe:

I think we've got bigger, more powerful and less accountable elites here. I dont think we should confuse taking back control with giving them more.

[Burney]

This isnt lying or xenophobia then? Also, I think it's worth pointing out that 94% of economists think leaving the EU will have a negative effect on the economy in the short and medium term.

http://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/article_large/public/thumbnails/image/2016/06/13/13/untitled.png


It's sensationalist, sure, but I don't see it as lying or xenophobia, no. The EU has been accepting young, male Islamic migrants (I notice everyone's stopped pretending they're refugees, btw) largely unchecked at an alarming rater lately. They have also mislaid about half a million of them, ffs! I think those are legitimate concerns.

So is it sensationalist? Yes. A bit crass? Sure. Xenophobic or a lie? No.

Oh, and from a Remain camp that has consistently tried to batter the public into submission with doom-mongering for months now, accusations of sensationalism are pretty rich.

[Burney]

I think we've got bigger, more powerful and less accountable elites here. I dont think we should confuse taking back control with giving them more.

I think that's bull****. I also think it's a convenient way of avoiding the fact that you're now happy to be a toadying lickspittle of an undemocratic, plutocratic elite that you only support because it isn't British.

[The Jorge]

It's sensationalist, sure, but I don't see it as lying or xenophobia, no. The EU has been accepting young, male Islamic migrants (I notice everyone's stopped pretending they're refugees, btw) largely unchecked at an alarming rater lately. They have also mislaid about half a million of them, ffs! I think those are legitimate concerns.

So is it sensationalist? Yes. A bit crass? Sure. Xenophobic or a lie? No.

Oh, and from a Remain camp that has consistently tried to batter the public into submission with doom-mongering for months now, accusations of sensationalism are pretty rich.

It's literally stoking "fear of the other". It's textbook xenophobia. Continuing to use a false figure that has been comprehensively discredited by people on every side of the argument is lying.

The guy in Orlando was a second generation Afghan ffs.

[The Jorge]

I think that's bull****. I also think it's a convenient way of avoiding the fact that you're now happy to be a toadying lickspittle of an undemocratic, plutocratic elite that you only support because it isn't British.

And you're happy to be a toadying lickspittle of an undemocratic, plutocratic elite that you only support simply because it is British.

Sides of a coin and all that.

[Ash]

This isnt lying or xenophobia then?

A political program that aims at the destruction of western democracy, mass slaughter of homosexuals, enslavement of women, and mass conversions at fruit-knife point *can* accurately be described as a real threat to our way of life, I think.

[Burney]

It's literally stoking "fear of the other". It's textbook xenophobia. Continuing to use a false figure that has been comprehensively discredited by people on every side of the argument is lying.

The guy in Orlando was a second generation Afghan ffs.

It's alerting people to the very real dangers posed by Islamic immigration to this country. These are fears that have been shown to be valid again and again.

Also, the fact that he was second generation is irrelevant - so were the guys who did the 7/7 bombing. What is it that they had in common? Oh, yes, the fact that they were muslim. So if you have a serious security problem caused by a certain ethnic or religious group, how does inviting more of that group into a country make sense? And how does making that obvious point about security make one xenophobic?

[The Jorge]

A political program that aims at the destruction of western democracy, mass slaughter of homosexuals, enslavement of women, and mass conversions at fruit-knife point *can* accurately be described as a real threat to our way of life, I think.

Clearly, but issuing something like that a day after 50 people have been murdered might be described as a teensy bit crass, quite a bit more as sensationalist and very, very much as fearmongering, no?

[Pokster]

[QUOTE=The Jorge;4117079]This isnt lying or xenophobia then? Also, I think it's worth pointing out that 94% of economists think leaving the EU will have a negative effect on the economy in the short and medium term.

It is how big and long lasting the negative effect is that counts... somthing that they haven't been able to explain at all.

[Burney]

And you're happy to be a toadying lickspittle of an undemocratic, plutocratic elite that you only support simply because it is British.

Sides of a coin and all that.

Maybe. At least that makes me a loyal subject and is consistent with my long-held and expressed beliefs.

It makes you a leetle bit the hypocrite, no? :shrug:

NTTAWWT

[The Jorge]

It's alerting people to the very real dangers posed by Islamic immigration to this country. These are fears that have been shown to be valid again and again.


Also, the fact that he was second generation is irrelevant - so were the guys who did the 7/7 bombing. What is it that they had in common? Oh, yes, the fact that they were muslim. So if you have a serious security problem caused by a certain ethnic or religious group, how does inviting more of that group into a country make sense? And how does making that obvious point about security make one xenophobic?

Explain to me how membership of the EU would make any difference to this.

[Ash]

I think we've got bigger, more powerful and less accountable elites here. I dont think we should confuse taking back control with giving them more.

Lets just take this one logical step at a time.

1. Power over 28 countries is MORE power than power over one country.
2. An unelected legislature is LESS accountable than an elected one.

3 You're wrong.

[The Jorge]

Maybe. At least that makes me a loyal subject and is consistent with my long-held and expressed beliefs.

It makes you a leetle bit the hypocrite, no? :shrug:

NTTAWWT

Um, no. I think you'll find I've pretty consistently been an internationalist in favour of people having enshrined and inalienable rights.

[Burney]

Explain to me how membership of the EU would make any difference to this.

:sigh: It means that, when (not if) these migrants become EU citizens, we will not be required under EU law to allow them seamless and unhindered entry to our country and would have the power to deport anyone we wished to.

[The Jorge]

Lets just take this one logical step at a time.

1. Power over 28 countries is MORE power than power over one country.
2. An unelected legislature is LESS accountable than an elected one.

3 You're wrong.

We've been through this, Ash.

[Burney]

We've been through this, Ash.

Our national electoral system allows us the possibility of changing the way things in our country work if enough people want to.
The EU affords us no such ability.
There's the difference.

[Ash]

Clearly, but issuing something like that a day after 50 people have been murdered might be described as a teensy bit crass, quite a bit more as sensationalist and very, very much as fearmongering, no?

Yes, but that wasn't your original point. Let us not pretend that every dire utterance of doom from Dave Cameroon is not fearmongering, though. Nor the shrill portrayal of the British working class as knuckle-dragging xenophobes by the running dogs of EU autocracy. :thumbup:

[Burney]

Um, no. I think you'll find I've pretty consistently been an internationalist in favour of people having enshrined and inalienable rights.

People in this country had those rights when the gutters of your European chums were running red with blood.
I need no lectures from Europeans on 'rights', thank you very much.
And, of course, the one right the EU actively seeks to deny its citizens is the right to actually change anything by voting. All other rights are pretty meaningless set next to that.

[The Jorge]

Our national electoral system allows us the possibility of changing the way things in our country work if enough people want to.
The EU affords us no such ability.
There's the difference.

Of course it does, just that it will take longer as a larger consensus is needed.

[The Jorge]

People in this country had those rights when the gutters of your European chums were running red with blood.
I need no lectures from Europeans on 'rights', thank you very much.
And, of course, the one right the EU actively seeks to deny its citizens is the right to actually change anything by voting. All other rights are pretty meaningless set next to that.

Nice call back, Enoch. We didnt have those rights then and we're risking losing them now.

[Ash]

We've been through this, Ash.

Well, you've ignored it before and you'll ignore it again. "Yeah, but the QUEEN".

The answer to not-enough democracy is not even less democracy.

[Burney]

Of course it does, just that it will take longer as a larger consensus is needed.

How so? Only the Commission can propose law. The Commission is self-perpetuating and self-serving. Elected representatives may only vote on what is proposed and the EU Parliament is deliberately designed to be a disparate Babel in which no opposition to that legislation can ever effectively be mustered because of the sheer multiplicity of wildly differing political standpoints. It is a sham.

It doesn't matter how you vote in a European election, nothing will change because the system is purpose-designed to ensure that is the case.

[The Jorge]

Well, you've ignored it before and you'll ignore it again. "Yeah, but the QUEEN".

The answer to not-enough democracy is not even less democracy.

Now look who's offering the reductive arguments.

[The Jorge]

How so? Only the Commission can propose law. The Commission is self-perpetuating and self-serving. Elected representatives may only vote on what is proposed and the EU Parliament is deliberately designed to be a disparate Babel in which no opposition to that legislation can ever effectively be mustered because of the sheer multiplicity of wildly differing political standpoints. It is a sham.

It doesn't matter how you vote in a European election, nothing will change because the system is purpose-designed to ensure that is the case.

And the parliament can vote to accept or reject those, as well as propose amendments.

[Ash]

Now look who's offering the reductive arguments.

That is not reductive. I made a logical proposition. You offered no counter, saying we'd done it before. Before you'd pointed to the imperfections of democracy in this country. So I countered that with another logical proposition.

And you accuse me of being reductive? Booo!

[The Jorge]

That is not reductive. I made a logical proposition. You offered no counter, saying we'd done it before. Before you'd pointed to the imperfections of democracy in this country. So I countered that with another logical proposition.

And you accuse me of being reductive? Booo!

You're forgetting the "Well, you've ignored it before and you'll ignore it again. "Yeah, but the QUEEN"." bit there.

The EU, and the rights it has given us, is an affront to the people who hold power in this country and if you think it's you or I, or the voting public at large, who really hold the power in this country than you need to look up more on your perambulations.

[Ash]

You're forgetting the "Well, you've ignored it before and you'll ignore it again. "Yeah, but the QUEEN"." bit there.

No, I'm just saying I have't seen a genuine refutation of the point, just obfuscation.


The EU, and the rights it has given us, is an affront to the people who hold power in this country and if you think it's you or I, or the voting public at large, who really hold the power in this country than you need to look up more on your perambulations.

Most of the rights we enjoy were fought for over hundreds of years, and not paternally granted. If the glorious EU is such an affront to the people in power, why are so many of them imploring us to remain part of it?

[Alberto Balsam Rodriguez]

The one unarguably valid reason to leave - and the reason I will be voting to do so - is that the EU is an undemocratic institution that utterly undermines the sovereignty of Parliament. The only body within it that can propose law is an unelected Commission, meaning that its entire legislative agenda is set not by the people of Europe, but by a technocratic body with zero electoral or democratic mandate. That is not democracy by any stretch of the imagination.

It all depends whether you care about democracy or not, I guess. I do, so I will be voting to get the hell out of the stinking, rotten organisation.

As someone who does not really spend much time on European politics, what are the European parliamentary elections that we all probably had the opportunity to vote in. I'm sure we voted a couple of years ago in some European elections? I could be mistaken.

[The Jorge]

Yes, but that wasn't your original point. Let us not pretend that every dire utterance of doom from Dave Cameroon is not fearmongering, though. Nor the shrill portrayal of the British working class as knuckle-dragging xenophobes by the running dogs of EU autocracy. :thumbup:

Where did I say it was the working class?

Also, it's probably worth pointing out that 26 members of the government are unelected. Our government. And they're only accountable to the PM.

[Burney]

As someone who does not really spend much time on European politics, what are the European parliamentary elections that we all probably had the opportunity to vote in. I'm sure we voted a couple of years ago in some European elections? I could be mistaken.

Nobody spends any time on European politics for the simple reason that we all know our votes count for **** all. Check out the EU voter turnout if you don't believe me.
The European Parliament invariably pursues a roughly centrist line because it is a fudge where coalitions constantly have to be made on the fly - usually to little effect - because it is has no adversarial principle.
In other words, it invariably just follows the Commission's centre-left, corporatist line.

The single biggest group in the EU parliament is an anti-EU group. But can they change anything? Of course not. That is the point.

Because it cannot propose legislation, it has no means to set a truly democratic agenda. That agenda-setting is left entirely to unelected bureaucrats.

That is not democracy. It is a sham designed to appease idiots who know no better.

[Alberto Balsam Rodriguez]

Nobody spends any time on European politics for the simple reason that we all know our votes count for **** all. Check out the EU voter turnout if you don't believe me.
The European Parliament invariably pursues a roughly centrist line because it is a fudge where coalitions constantly have to be made on the fly - usually to little effect - because it is has no adversarial principle.
In other words, it invariably just follows the Commission's centre-left, corporatist line.

The single biggest group in the EU parliament is an anti-EU group. But can they change anything? Of course not. That is the point.

Because it cannot propose legislation, it has no means to set a truly democratic agenda. That agenda-setting is left entirely to unelected bureaucrats.

That is not democracy. It is a sham designed to appease idiots who know no better.

Maybe you are right regarding the voting outcome, I do not know. I;ll take your word for it. As I said, I do not spend much time on European politics. Why is that? Perhaps because it doesn't have a negative effect on my life. Is the EU perfect? Far from it. Are we going to be better off outside it? Very, very difficult to say.

[Burney]

Maybe you are right regarding the voting outcome, I do not know. I;ll take your word for it. As I said, I do not spend much time on European politics. Why is that? Perhaps because it doesn't have a negative effect on my life. Is the EU perfect? Far from it. Are we going to be better off outside it? Very, very difficult to say.

But that's exactly it. The erosion of the democratic principle has been gradual and insidious. You barely notice it until one day you wake up and realise you are having laws that do affect your daily life imposed on you by people you can't vote for and can't get rid of. One answer is to do as you seem to want to and shrug your shoulders and say 'Oh, well. It's not great, but it could be worse, I suppose.' The other is to take the view that democratic sovereignty is actually pretty important, stand on principle and vote to leave.

[The Jorge]

:sigh: It means that, when (not if) these migrants become EU citizens, we will not be required under EU law to allow them seamless and unhindered entry to our country and would have the power to deport anyone we wished to.

We've managed to deport just shy of 7000 people as it is. We're not allowed to deport anyone who would face the death penalty, torture or are likely to face persecution for their political beliefs though. This is what a civilised country would do, surely.

[The Jorge]

But that's exactly it. The erosion of the democratic principle has been gradual and insidious. You barely notice it until one day you wake up and realise you are having laws that do affect your daily life imposed on you by people you can't vote for and can't get rid of. One answer is to do as you seem to want to and shrug your shoulders and say 'Oh, well. It's not great, but it could be worse, I suppose.' The other is to take the view that democratic sovereignty is actually pretty important, stand on principle and vote to leave.

Or you could realise that, on balance, sacrificing those pretty nebulous things is probably worth it for a frictionless access to our main trading market and having the pick of the best and brightest of over 500m people.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

It's coming home...it's coming home, sovereignty's coming home!!!

[Burney]

We've managed to deport just shy of 7000 people as it is. We're not allowed to deport anyone who would face the death penalty, torture or are likely to face persecution for their political beliefs though. This is what a civilised country would do, surely.

Well I'm actually talking about EU citizens here. Our power to deport or refuse entry to undesirables (those with criminal records, for instance) would be greatly increased by Brexit. Our readiness to accept genuine political asylum cases would be unaffected.

[Burney]

Or you could realise that, on balance, sacrificing those pretty nebulous things is probably worth it for a frictionless access to our main trading market and having the pick of the best and brightest of over 500m people.

The principle of democratic accountability is not a nebulous thing. Nor should it be lightly dismissed. I have the deepest suspicion of anyone who doesn't take it extremely seriously.

[The Jorge]

The principle of democratic accountability is not a nebulous thing. Nor should it be lightly dismissed. I have the deepest suspicion of anyone who doesn't take it extremely seriously.

I've not heard you be that enthusiastic about reforming the house of lords or working towards a republic before this, what's changed?

[Mo Britain less Europe]

You can laugh all you like but who's going to save us from the Mekon after we leave the EU?

[The Jorge]

You can laugh all you like but who's going to save us from the Mekon after we leave the EU?

Lord Hague of Closetton?

[Burney]

I've not heard you be that enthusiastic about reforming the house of lords or working towards a republic before this, what's changed?

:yawn: Neither of those things seriously impinges on the principle of democratic accountability, since their powers are strictly limited. By contrast, the powers of the EU Commission are well-nigh total. Comparing the minor democratic shortfall of our legislative system with the major one of the EU as though they were equivalent is fatuous in the extreme.

[The Jorge]

:yawn: Neither of those things seriously impinges on the principle of democratic accountability, since their powers are strictly limited. By contrast, the powers of the EU Commission are well-nigh total. Comparing the minor democratic shortfall of our legislative system with the major one of the EU as though they were equivalent is fatuous in the extreme.

The principle of hereditary heads of state and hereditary membership to the upper chamber isnt at odds with democracy? That's some advanced sophistry for this time in the morning.

[Burney]

The principle of hereditary heads of state and hereditary membership to the upper chamber isnt at odds with democracy? That's some advanced sophistry for this time in the morning.

Add odds with it? Sure. Does it fatally undermine it? Absolutely not.

In the UK the elected body has ultimate de facto primacy over the unelected bodies. The EU cannot say the same.

[The Jorge]

Add odds with it? Sure. Does it fatally undermine it? Absolutely not.

In the UK the elected body has ultimate de facto primacy over the unelected bodies. The EU cannot say the same.

Ah right, just as long as you understand your sudden hard on for democracy is, at best, a semi