So this moron has been arrested and charged for wearing an offensive t-shirt.

[Sir C]

Are we really at the point where poor manners are a matter for the judicial system? And who gets to decide what is, or isn't, offensive? Is it legal to wear a 'Jesus is a ****' t-shirt, or not?

[Burney]

Are we really at the point where poor manners are a matter for the judicial system? And who gets to decide what is, or isn't, offensive? Is it legal to wear a 'Jesus is a ****' t-shirt, or not?

Hmmm. I can see both sides on that one. You could say it's the old 'freedom of speech isn't the freedom to shout 'fire' in a crowded theatre' thing, couldn't you? At what point does wearing a t-shirt designed to offend and incite anger constitute a breach of the peace? Although I agree that one saying that God/Muhammed is a **** would be just as bad.

[Sir C]

Hmmm. I can see both sides on that one. You could say it's the old 'freedom of speech isn't the freedom to shout 'fire' in a crowded theatre' thing, couldn't you? At what point does wearing a t-shirt designed to offend and incite anger constitute a breach of the peace? Although I agree that one saying that God/Muhammed is a **** would be just as bad.

The possibility of arrest for expressing a point of view just makes me very, very nervous.

Perhaps the police should be given the power to say, '**** off home and change your shirt, you ridiculous child.'

[Burney]

The possibility of arrest for expressing a point of view just makes me very, very nervous.

Perhaps the police should be given the power to say, '**** off home and change your shirt, you ridiculous child.'

Well in a better, simpler time, the police would never have needed to get involved, since society would have self-policed, the fellow would simply have been rendered a few teeth lighter and nobody would even have considered involving plod. Now, though, everyone wants to get offended or screech about their rights, but they all want some other **** to do the dirty work for them. We're all about rights without responsibilities these days.

[The Jorge]

The possibility of arrest for expressing a point of view just makes me very, very nervous.

Perhaps the police should be given the power to say, '**** off home and change your shirt, you ridiculous child.'

The polis love a bit of Section 5 abuse though, it's their favouritest catch-all charge.

Obviously, I blame Thatcher, for it was her govt that brought it in.

[Burney]

The polis love a bit of Section 5 abuse though, it's their favouritest catch-all charge.

Obviously, I blame Thatcher, for it was her govt that brought it in.

Phew! I thought you were going to get through a morning without blaming Thatcher for something there, j.

[The Jorge]

Phew! I thought you were going to get through a morning without blaming Thatcher for something there, j.

Well it's literally her and Douglas Hurd who are to blame

[Ash]

You could say it's the old 'freedom of speech isn't the freedom to shout 'fire' in a crowded theatre' thing, couldn't you?

I always find that a bit of a straw man, tbh, for reasons that it shouldn't be necessary to spell out. Especially to a man who routinely offends Guardian readers with his comments.


At what point does wearing a t-shirt designed to offend and incite anger constitute a breach of the peace? Although I agree that one saying that God/Muhammed is a **** would be just as bad.

At what point do we consider anything that offends anybody to be incitement to anger etc? Once the offensive is unnaceptable people start queing up to get things they don't like to hear branded as beyond the pale.

[Sir C]

Well it's literally her and Douglas Hurd who are to blame

It's literally 26 years since she left office. Has there not been a single government in 26 years that could have undone some of these appalling things she did?

[The Jorge]

It's literally 26 years since she left office. Has there not been a single government in 26 years that could have undone some of these appalling things she did?

Not really, no. Though I do enjoy you and berni vociferously complaining about her laws.

[redgunamo]

I always find that a bit of a straw man, tbh, for reasons that it shouldn't be necessary to spell out. Especially to a man who routinely offends Guardian readers with his comments.



At what point do we consider anything that offends anybody to be incitement to anger etc? Once the offensive is unnaceptable people start queing up to get things they don't like to hear branded as beyond the pale.

That's the idea; there's nowadays decent money in it.

[IUFG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05FKtPJO8IQ

[Sir C]

Not really, no. Though I do enjoy you and berni vociferously complaining about her laws.

Why? We don't live in a North Korea. I don't have to agree with everything a politician does, nor do you have to hate everything someone does or says just because you disagree with some specifics. Why the need for this either/or extremism about everything? I find it upsettingly bovine because, I suspect, that with the benefit of a decent schooling you could have been quite sentient :-(

[The Jorge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05FKtPJO8IQ

:music: :music:

[Sir C]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05FKtPJO8IQ

Good Lord! That's quite a racket, i!

[IUFG]

I think that might be the point, c

[The Jorge]

Why? We don't live in a North Korea. I don't have to agree with everything a politician does, nor do you have to hate everything someone does or says just because you disagree with some specifics. Why the need for this either/or extremism about everything? I find it upsettingly bovine because, I suspect, that with the benefit of a decent schooling you could have been quite sentient :-(

Oh bless. Whereas if you'd gone to the local comp...

[Sir C]

Oh bless. Whereas if you'd gone to the local comp...

Well I expect my Latin would now be execrable, for a start.

[Sir C]

I think that might be the point, c

Oh. :-( I'm afraid I'm not very up to date with modern music, i.

[Ash]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05FKtPJO8IQ

Someone needs to tell the keyboard player that the theatrics don't work. Everything has been tried, but only way to look cool behind the keyboards is to play something good on it imo.

[7sisters]

Are we really at the point where poor manners are a matter for the judicial system? And who gets to decide what is, or isn't, offensive? Is it legal to wear a 'Jesus is a ****' t-shirt, or not?

Well, it's pretty offensive, even to an agnostic such as me. I don't object to the chaps opinion but just in the same way you'd tell a bunch of kids in the park to pack in the swearing in front of your three year old, there really are other more acceptable ways and forums in which to direct your opinions.

[The Jorge]

Well, it's pretty offensive, even to an agnostic such as me. I don't object to the chaps opinion but just in the same way you'd tell a bunch of kids in the park to pack in the swearing in front of your three year old, there really are other more acceptable ways and forums in which to direct your opinions.

I honestly thought that shirt would garner more sympathy on here than it has

[Herbette Chapman - aged 15]

Are we really at the point where poor manners are a matter for the judicial system? And who gets to decide what is, or isn't, offensive? Is it legal to wear a 'Jesus is a ****' t-shirt, or not?

Considering that Mahommed's first wife was 11 years old, would wearing one of those "The Prophet was a *****phile" t-shirts land me in hot water d'ya think? That nasty little ginger fella NFE on SIMB used to sell such t-shirts at WHL with impunity apparently

[Sir C]

Considering that Mahommed's first wife was 11 years old, would wearing one of those "The Prophet was a *****phile" t-shirts land me in hot water d'ya think? That nasty little ginger fella NFE on SIMB used to sell such t-shirts at WHL with impunity apparently

If you were wearing one of those, I'm not sure that the police ought to be your first concern, to be honest. You're more likely to have your head chopped off with a fruit knife, than get nicked.

[Sir C]

Well, it's pretty offensive, even to an agnostic such as me. I don't object to the chaps opinion but just in the same way you'd tell a bunch of kids in the park to pack in the swearing in front of your three year old, there really are other more acceptable ways and forums in which to direct your opinions.

I agree, but is that a reason to arrest someone?

[7sisters]

I agree, but is that a reason to arrest someone?

On balance, possibly.. If you remove the t-shirt element and create a different scenario where someone repeatedly bellows the word **** in an open shopping centre, would you not expect the police or some type of security to move in at some point ?

[Sir C]

On balance, possibly.. If you remove the t-shirt element and create a different scenario where someone repeatedly bellows the word **** in an open shopping centre, would you not expect the police or some type of security to move in at some point ?

Well, ideally I'd like the police, security, or indeed members of the public to simply knee the **** in the *******s and throw him out onto the street.

But, you know, arrest? Like, with cells and courts and everything?

[7sisters]

Well, ideally I'd like the police, security, or indeed members of the public to simply knee the **** in the *******s and throw him out onto the street.

But, you know, arrest? Like, with cells and courts and everything?

Will he end up getting charged ? I thought they'd treat him like some drunk who gets scraped off the pavement at 4am and turfed out of the cell by midday with a flea in his ear.
Perhaps a caution with a fine :shrug:

[redgunamo]

Will he end up getting charged ? I thought they'd treat him like some drunk who gets scraped off the pavement at 4am and turfed out of the cell by midday with a flea in his ear.
Perhaps a caution with a fine :shrug:

That's what I thought too, basically a yellow card.

[redgunamo]

Considering that Mahommed's first wife was 11 years old, would wearing one of those "The Prophet was a *****phile" t-shirts land me in hot water d'ya think? That nasty little ginger fella NFE on SIMB used to sell such t-shirts at WHL with impunity apparently

Different matter in the third world, I'm afraid. You can't wait until you're forty to get on with things as most of 'em are old or dead by that time.

[Fast Eddie]

Oh I say.

148

[Ash]

On balance, possibly.. If you remove the t-shirt element and create a different scenario where someone repeatedly bellows the word **** in an open shopping centre, would you not expect the police or some type of security to move in at some point ?

But it isn't the same. It's not remotely the same. Being able to avert one's eyes from something we'd rather not see is very different from someone screaming in our ear.

[7sisters]

But it isn't the same. It's not remotely the same. Being able to avert one's eyes from something we'd rather not see is very different from someone screaming in our ear.

It's not the same but there is a link. Averting one's eyes is not a solution in any real sense as you'd need to actually take in the offensive wording before doing so, no ?

[Ash]

It's not the same but there is a link. Averting one's eyes is not a solution in any real sense as you'd need to actually take in the offensive wording before doing so, no ?

OH NOES I HAVE SEEN A BAD WORD! GOUGE OUT MINE EYES!

People go out of their way to get offended by things and then over-react.

[7sisters]

OH NOES I HAVE SEEN A BAD WORD! GOUGE OUT MINE EYES!

People go out of their way to get offended by things and then over-react.

Well that's one way of looking at it. You'd have to see it from other perspectives. Yes.. I'd be offended if some prick was that desperate for attention that they'd risk going to the lengths to use such an offensive term in front of my young children.
In my world it could be deemed as something of a challenge as to whether or not anyone was actually going to do anything about it.
It shows a total lack of respect towards anyone possessing an ounce of decency.
I'd suggest if someone took him by the arm and into a quiet alley and kicked the living **** out of him, the majority of people wouldn't be rushing to his aid ?

[redgunamo]

Well in a better, simpler time, the police would never have needed to get involved, since society would have self-policed, the fellow would simply have been rendered a few teeth lighter and nobody would even have considered involving plod. Now, though, everyone wants to get offended or screech about their rights, but they all want some other **** to do the dirty work for them. We're all about rights without responsibilities these days.

And, of course, many would actually agree with the sentiments expressed on the t-shirt while being appalled at the wearer's lack of social subtlety and public discretion. But often the nuance of this particular view will get lost and ignored in the noise created by those who object to the message itself.

Thank God for Twitter, I suppose :-\