Meanwhile, over at The Guardian, vicious arguments between 'Remainers' and

[Sir C]

'Brexiters'; intemperate language, accusations of xenophobia, racism and God knows what else.

In real life I am yet to encounter anyone who gives a ****. Are we failing to give this serious matter the consideration it deserves?

[Burney]

'Brexiters'; intemperate language, accusations of xenophobia, racism and God knows what else.

In real life I am yet to encounter anyone who gives a ****. Are we failing to give this serious matter the consideration it deserves?

Polly Toynbee complaining about the fear tactics of the Leave campaign is pretty ****ing funny, I must say.

Thing is, I think everyone stopped believing a word anyone says on the matter ages ago, so all these doom-laden pronouncements just wash over us all. Its numbed everyone into a torpor and no-one is seen as being a fair dealer in the matter.

[The Jorge]

'Brexiters'; intemperate language, accusations of xenophobia, racism and God knows what else.

In real life I am yet to encounter anyone who gives a ****. Are we failing to give this serious matter the consideration it deserves?

I give a ****, if that helps.

I cant imagine that the Gruan is any more brutal than cabinet meetings right now though.

[Pokster]

Polly Toynbee complaining about the fear tactics of the Leave campaign is pretty ****ing funny, I must say.

Thing is, I think everyone stopped believing a word anyone says on the matter ages ago, so all these doom-laden pronouncements just wash over us all. Its numbed everyone into a torpor and no-one is seen as being a fair dealer in the matter.

I agree, the lies and stretching of the truth in both sides figures is laughable..... The remain camp are actually making **** up that they have no way of proving but nobody seems to seriously question them about it

[Pokster]

Polly Toynbee complaining about the fear tactics of the Leave campaign is pretty ****ing funny, I must say.

Thing is, I think everyone stopped believing a word anyone says on the matter ages ago, so all these doom-laden pronouncements just wash over us all. Its numbed everyone into a torpor and no-one is seen as being a fair dealer in the matter.

I agree, the lies and stretching of the truth in both sides figures is laughable..... The remain camp are actually making sh1t up that they have no way of proving but nobody seems to seriously question them about it

[SWv2]

I briefly listened to a radio discussion on this last week.

I think (though I missed her) Katie Hopkins was on saying leave, then George Galloway was on saying leave, which put him on the same side as Boris Johnson. Jeremy Corbyn in public is saying stay but Galloway said he is a liar as in private he is saying leave.

In summary no person really appeared to know anything absolute, simply rumours of doom and/or wanting to reclaim sovereign powers.

Eventually I grew weary of the debate so put on the Amorphous Androgynous.

[Luis Anaconda]

I agree, the lies and stretching of the truth in both sides figures is laughable..... The remain camp are actually making **** up that they have no way of proving but nobody seems to seriously question them about it

tbf they have 40 years of lies from the likes of the Daily Mail and Express to make up ground on

[The Jorge]

I agree, the lies and stretching of the truth in both sides figures is laughable..... The remain camp are actually making **** up that they have no way of proving but nobody seems to seriously question them about it

Yes, but it's *nothing* compared to the lies from the leave camp who are just off in fantasy land.

[Burney]

I give a ****, if that helps.

I cant imagine that the Gruan is any more brutal than cabinet meetings right now though.

I'm sort of fatalistic about it now, as I don't think the way I'll vote will win - which I think is a pity - but I'm increasingly convinced that the whole project is unsustainable anyway. It's going to collapse under its own weight, it's just a question of when.

Look at France at the moment, for instance. You've got a socialist government having to use water cannon to impose vaguely sane labour laws that actually make it worthwhile employing people in the face of increasingly militant unions. All of that is grist to the Front National's mill and they want out even more than UKIP. It's long been my belief that France will be the country that breaks the EU, since its sense of exceptionalism simply won't stand for having to compromise or kowtow to others. France either has to be at the head of the EU or it will be opposed to it.

[Burney]

Yes, but it's *nothing* compared to the lies from the leave camp who are just off in fantasy land.

Rubbish, j. You have to admit that the hysteria from Remain has been pitched at an intensity that is genuinely absurd.

[Sir C]

I briefly listened to a radio discussion on this last week.

I think (though I missed her) Katie Hopkins was on saying leave, then George Galloway was on saying leave, which put him on the same side as Boris Johnson. Jeremy Corbyn in public is saying stay but Galloway said he is a liar as in private he is saying leave.

In summary no person really appeared to know anything absolute, simply rumours of doom and/or wanting to reclaim sovereign powers.

Eventually I grew weary of the debate so put on the Amorphous Androgynous.

Katie Hopkins and George Galloway? Good Lord. I don't envy you being subjected to that pair of maniacs, however brief the period.

[The Jorge]

Rubbish, j. You have to admit that the hysteria from Remain has been pitched at an intensity that is genuinely absurd.

The pitch might be a bit high but they do have comparitively rock-solid evidence, most of the leave camp's stuff seems to be around an agenda of economic liberalisation where "freedom" means people losing almost all of their rights.

Also, the leave camp are flat out lying about things like Turkey.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxSz4levAxc

[redgunamo]

I'm sort of fatalistic about it now, as I don't think the way I'll vote will win - which I think is a pity - but I'm increasingly convinced that the whole project is unsustainable anyway. It's going to collapse under its own weight, it's just a question of when.

Look at France at the moment, for instance. You've got a socialist government having to use water cannon to impose vaguely sane labour laws that actually make it worthwhile employing people in the face of increasingly militant unions. All of that is grist to the Front National's mill and they want out even more than UKIP. It's long been my belief that France will be the country that breaks the EU, since its sense of exceptionalism simply won't stand for having to compromise or kowtow to others. France either has to be at the head of the EU or it will be opposed to it.

Oh, right. I did wonder what all the fuss was about.

[redgunamo]

The pitch might be a bit high but they do have comparitively rock-solid evidence, most of the leave camp's stuff seems to be around an agenda of economic liberalisation where "freedom" means people losing almost all of their rights.

Also, the leave camp are flat out lying about things like Turkey.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxSz4levAxc

Can the UK stop Turkey joining the EU?

[The Jorge]

Can the UK stop Turkey joining the EU?

Yes, they have a Veto, as do each of the other countries in the EU.

[Burney]

The pitch might be a bit high but they do have comparitively rock-solid evidence, most of the leave camp's stuff seems to be around an agenda of economic liberalisation where "freedom" means people losing almost all of their rights.

Also, the leave camp are flat out lying about things like Turkey.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxSz4levAxc

Their evidence is very far from rock solid and you know it. The Leave arguments over sovereignty and the EU on the other hand, are unanswerable. If you don't give a **** about sovereignty, then fine, but you can't deny it is compromised and undermined by our membership of the EU. It's just a fact.

And how do you know they're lying about Turkey? The EU desperately needs Turkey to control the immigration problem right now and you can bet your arse that Turkey's long-term price for that is EU membership just as surely as its short-term price is de facto freedom of movement within the EU for its citizens.

[Burney]

Yes, they have a Veto, as do each of the other countries in the EU.

Having a veto and being able to use it are very different things.

[Burney]

Oh, right. I did wonder what all the fuss was about.

Kicked off at an oil terminal in Marseilles yesterday, I believe.

[The Jorge]

Having a veto and being able to use it are very different things.

:hehe: Right talk me through that one.

[redgunamo]

Having a veto and being able to use it are very different things.

Angie can be most persuasive, when she wants to be. And the whole world knows there's no sense differing with a German woman once she's bent on persuading you of something :-|

[Burney]

:hehe: Right talk me through that one.

Ask yourself why we've been so consistently outvoted in the Council of Ministers, but have so rarely used our veto.

[The Jorge]

Ask yourself why we've been so consistently outvoted in the Council of Ministers, but have so rarely used our veto.

To save the veto for the important things, because that's what it is for.

Are you seriously suggesting that any PM that felt strongly about Turkey joining would somehow not be allowed to exercise their veto? I mean, it does look like Penny is lying there.

[Luis Anaconda]

Angie can be most persuasive, when she wants to be. And the whole world knows there's no sense differing with a German woman once she's bent on persuading you of something :-|

The Voice of Experience

[The Jorge]

Angie can be most persuasive, when she wants to be. And the whole world knows there's no sense differing with a German woman once she's bent on persuading you of something :-|

She just needs a massage from a real strong man

http://p.fod4.com/p/media/9b1534760d/LzQvKzc8R3mCWE1qjl46_George%20Bush%20Angela%20Merk el.gif

[Burney]

To save the veto for the important things, because that's what it is for.

Are you seriously suggesting that any PM that felt strongly about Turkey joining would somehow not be allowed to exercise their veto? I mean, it does look like Penny is lying there.

I'm saying that other pressures can be brought to bear, yes. I'm also saying that any time we have used our veto, it has caused huge ructions and calls for us to be sidelined from such votes. That would happen in this instance.

Are you seriously trying to say that there haven't been similar stitch-ups in the past?

[The Jorge]

I'm saying that other pressures can be brought to bear, yes. I'm also saying that any time we have used our veto, it has caused huge ructions and calls for us to be sidelined from such votes. That would happen in this instance.

Are you seriously trying to say that there haven't been similar stitch-ups in the past?

Not that I can think of. Though I do think we're also phenomenally bad at playing the EU game.

[Burney]

You don't remember the 2002 Chirac-Schroeder deal on the CAP that basically overrode all discussion prior to that then, no? That's how the EU operates. It will ultimately do whatever it wants to do regardless. All debate is strictly cosmetic.

[Brentwood]

I'm going to vote remain because I think Mark Carney is pretty well respected and independent and says we should remain

I also think it is unlikely that we will leave and suddenly the EU member countries will individually give us better trade agreements than the one we'd be walking away from.

Apart from that, it just becomes a personality contest where I'm making my decision based on the people representing each camp (seeing as nobody can possibly know what will happen for sure)

[Burney]

I'm going to vote remain because I think Mark Carney is pretty well respected and independent and says we should remain

I also think it is unlikely that we will leave and suddenly the EU member countries will individually give us better trade agreements than the one we'd be walking away from.

Apart from that, it just becomes a personality contest where I'm making my decision based on the people representing each camp (seeing as nobody can possibly know what will happen for sure)

If you believe Mark Carney is independent, you're out of your mind. He's a fully paid-up Remainer and has been from the word go.

https://twitter.com/markabroad/status/735050390203469824?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw