Ok, here's my considered response to those calling me a **** below re Arse/Spurs

[Monty92]

Here’s what we know about Arsenal and Spurs this season:

Spurs are seen to have had an outstanding season while Arsenal are seen to have had a highly disappointing one. This is despite the fact that Arsenal finished above Spurs, albeit by the smallest of margins.

The reasons for this discrepancy are:

1.DIFFERING EXPECTATIONS
After brief flirtations with the top four following several years of significant spending, this season they not only achieved a CL position but also challenged for the title. And they did so with an impressively low net spend since Pocchetino arrived at the club.
By contrast, Arsenal have been striving to make a serious title challenge for several years and, as we are led to believe, have now had three years where we’ve not had to sell any big players and have also had the funds to compete on a more level playing field with the world’s biggest clubs (albeit still at a distinct disadvantage). In spite of this, after Christmas we were unable to build anything close to the kind of momentum required to win the league. To make matters worse, the quality of football was often unconvincing. And of course the biggest compounding factor: when it became apparent that Chelsea, Man Utd and Man City were all under-performing to varying degrees, you would hope that the team would be suitably emboldened to capitalise on this weakened field. They failed to do so – and pretty miserably, too.

2. QUALITY OF FOOTBALL
Not only did Spurs achieve their start-of-season aim of finishing in the top four, they did so playing a distinctive brand of high-energy football of the type associated with many of the world’s pre-eminent managers (Klopp, Simeone, Guardiola).
By contrast, Arsenal appeared to demonstrate many of their time-honoured flaws, or, to put it bluntly, a squad that simply isn’t good enough in terms of personnel, tactical cohesion or mentality.

All of this makes total sense. But I do think there are some points to consider:

1) Leicester won the league on 81 points. Not a notably high points total but still higher than two title wins since the turn of the decade. So, even though the usual suspects did not challenge this season, to win the league we still had to beat the kind of points total you would have expected from one of the usual suspects.
2) I can't help thinking there is an inconsistency in saying that Arsenal missed a great opportunity to win the league, but not to say the same about Spurs. Any fan or pundit asked before the season to make a snap judgement on Spurs, hypothetically, finishing below Leicester would have said that it would be a disappointing season. We know that Leicester proved to be a much better team than anyone gave them credit for – good enough to only lose three games all season. But it still seems odd that Arsenal would be castigated for failing to finish above them, while Spurs are hailed for not only finishing below them, but us too.
3) This is not the first season in recent memory Spurs have finished in the top four. They did so under the much maligned Harry Redknapp, also playing a generally attacking, exciting brand of football. This was also achieved during a season in which the usual suspects were far more competitive. Is there not an argument that Redknapp’s achievement was the greater?

I can, of course, see why Pocchetino is seen as a manager with good potential. Without knowing the ins and outs of his management style, he clearly convinces those who work with him and, as an outsider, that is perhaps the most compelling evidence of a manager’s quality.

But I don’t think, at this stage, we can say with particular confidence that he’s a better manager than Wenger – or will be in the future. And yet, I think most of our fans (both moderates and banner****s) would swap them in a heartbeart. This strikes me as bizarre and further proof that what people actually want is change for changes sake.

[The Jorge]

Here’s what we know about Arsenal and Spurs this season:

I'm not quoting all this.

For the record, I wasnt calling you a ****. I was gently reminding Ash that this is very much your "bit" and it's useful for stimulating debate. You're basically a shock jock.

[Luis Anaconda]

For the record, I wasnt calling you a ****. I was gently reminding Ash that this is very much your "bit" and it's useful for stimulating debate. You're basically a shock jock.

I wasn't calling him **** either - but the **** is a bit of a ****, though. The ****

[PSRB]

Here’s what we know about Arsenal and Spurs this season:

Spurs are seen to have had an outstanding season while Arsenal are seen to have had a highly disappointing one. This is despite the fact that Arsenal finished above Spurs, albeit by the smallest of margins.

The reasons for this discrepancy are:

1.DIFFERING EXPECTATIONS
After brief flirtations with the top four following several years of significant spending, this season they not only achieved a CL position but also challenged for the title. And they did so with an impressively low net spend since Pocchetino arrived at the club.
By contrast, Arsenal have been striving to make a serious title challenge for several years and, as we are led to believe, have now had three years where we’ve not had to sell any big players and have also had the funds to compete on a more level playing field with the world’s biggest clubs (albeit still at a distinct disadvantage). In spite of this, after Christmas we were unable to build anything close to the kind of momentum required to win the league. To make matters worse, the quality of football was often unconvincing. And of course the biggest compounding factor: when it became apparent that Chelsea, Man Utd and Man City were all under-performing to varying degrees, you would hope that the team would be suitably emboldened to capitalise on this weakened field. They failed to do so – and pretty miserably, too.

2. QUALITY OF FOOTBALL
Not only did Spurs achieve their start-of-season aim of finishing in the top four, they did so playing a distinctive brand of high-energy football of the type associated with many of the world’s pre-eminent managers (Klopp, Simeone, Guardiola).
By contrast, Arsenal appeared to demonstrate many of their time-honoured flaws, or, to put it bluntly, a squad that simply isn’t good enough in terms of personnel, tactical cohesion or mentality.

All of this makes total sense. But I do think there are some points to consider:

1) Leicester won the league on 81 points. Not a notably high points total but still higher than two title wins since the turn of the decade. So, even though the usual suspects did not challenge this season, to win the league we still had to beat the kind of points total you would have expected from one of the usual suspects.
2) I can't help thinking there is an inconsistency in saying that Arsenal missed a great opportunity to win the league, but not to say the same about Spurs. Any fan or pundit asked before the season to make a snap judgement on Spurs, hypothetically, finishing below Leicester would have said that it would be a disappointing season. We know that Leicester proved to be a much better team than anyone gave them credit for – good enough to only lose three games all season. But it still seems odd that Arsenal would be castigated for failing to finish above them, while Spurs are hailed for not only finishing below them, but us too.
3) This is not the first season in recent memory Spurs have finished in the top four. They did so under the much maligned Harry Redknapp, also playing a generally attacking, exciting brand of football. This was also achieved during a season in which the usual suspects were far more competitive. Is there not an argument that Redknapp’s achievement was the greater?

I can, of course, see why Pocchetino is seen as a manager with good potential. Without knowing the ins and outs of his management style, he clearly convinces those who work with him and, as an outsider, that is perhaps the most compelling evidence of a manager’s quality.

But I don’t think, at this stage, we can say with particular confidence that he’s a better manager than Wenger – or will be in the future. And yet, I think most of our fans (both moderates and banner****s) would swap them in a heartbeart. This strikes me as bizarre and further proof that what people actually want is change for changes sake.

Villas-Boas got spurs 5th with 2 more points and was fired.......

[SWv2]

In the absence of death or resignation then all managerial change is change for change's sake.

[Ash]

For the record, I wasnt calling you a ****. I was gently reminding Ash that this is very much your "bit" and it's useful for stimulating debate. You're basically a shock jock.

I think I was probably the one who called him a ****.

Nice reply, Monty, and I would say that you can't genuinely and objectively compare two managers at different clubs without rewinding time and putting them in each others position, but what about the value of the players v points scored comparison? Not perfect but it is at least some quantifiable metric which supports the notion that Poch has had a better season than Arsene, even though that doesn't necessarily make him a better manager.

[Monty92]

In the absence of death or resignation then all managerial change is change for change's sake.

Hang on....you read my whole post? :yikes:

[redgunamo]

I wasn't calling him **** either - but the **** is a bit of a ****, though. The ****

I should've just called him a **** :-(

[SWv2]

Hang on....you read my whole post? :yikes:

Yes, and to completely up front with you let me state my position that I do think you are a ****.

[Luis Anaconda]

Hang on....you read my whole post? :yikes:

:hehe: Someone had to

[Monty92]

I think I was probably the one who called him a ****.

Nice reply, Monty, and I would say that you can't genuinely and objectively compare two managers at different clubs without rewinding time and putting them in each others position, but what about the value of the players v points scored comparison? Not perfect but it is at least some quantifiable metric which supports the notion that Poch has had a better season than Arsene, even though that doesn't necessarily make him a better manager.

But even by that metric, Pocchetino may have out-performed Wenger this season, but Wenger out-performed every manager in England for about eight seasons. So my point stands - there is simply not enough evidence to say with any confidence that he's a better manager. So why would so many swap him, if not for the reason I conclude?

[Ash]

But even by that metric, Pocchetino may have out-performed Wenger this season, but Wenger out-performed every manager in England for about eight seasons. So my point stands - there is simply not enough evidence to say with any confidence that he's a better manager. So why would so many swap him, if not for the reason I conclude?

Because Arsene is nearing the end of his time, one way or another, Poch is a very promising young manager, and change will happen sooner or later, and not for its own sake. I wouldn't swap them now, but it's not so outrageous that some people might want to take a bit of a punt, even if they're not banner****s.

[Monty92]

Because Arsene is nearing the end of his time, one way or another, Poch is a very promising young manager, and change will happen sooner or later, and not for its own sake. I wouldn't swap them now, but it's not so outrageous that some people might want to take a bit of a punt, even if they're not banner****s.

You’re being disingenuous. They would swap him because, instinctively, they think he’s the better manager, despite there not being the evidence to back this up. With the support of the club and its fans, Wenger could conceivably stay for another half a decade. That’s longer than most managers survive in one job today.

[SWv2]

I find supporting Arsenal to be quite boring at the moment, or predictable perhaps a better word.

I know we are not going to win the league as we simply appear to be lacking whatever that final ingredient is – players, management, luck … whatever. I don’t see a massive desire within the club to strive to improve, or at least I did not last summer with the signing only of one player in Cech.

I know at the beginning of the season that we have no ****ing hope in Europe to the point that I don’t even really see any point in our annual involvement other than making up numbers and allowing UEFA to facilitate group structures and a draw. And of course the financial rewards but forgive me for not really getting much excitement from them.

Last season was incredibly predictable in how it all panned out.

Personally, and perhaps incorrectly, I lay it at the feet of the manager. The buck stops with him as such.

I would like to see change at managerial level to see what it brings about, to see if a new incumbent can achieve more given the huge resources available to him. I know this brings no guarantee of success, even the success we have now which in reality is not success but is seen as success.

That’s not to say Wenger is a bad manager, or that Pochetinno is better, or Koeman or whoever else is this summer’s fancied one.

I am just bored of the old **** now.

I am not a banner****.

[Ash]

You’re being disingenuous. They would swap him because, instinctively, they think he’s the better manager, despite there not being the evidence to back this up. With the support of the club and its fans, Wenger could conceivably stay for another half a decade. That’s longer than most managers survive in one job today.

If you're so keen for evidence today, where is your evidence that 'they' all want to swap him? Is there evidence that Arsene is better than Poch *today*? This doesn't count past achievements. Players have their day. Managers can too.

[Monty92]

I find supporting Arsenal to be quite boring at the moment, or predictable perhaps a better word.

I know we are not going to win the league as we simply appear to be lacking whatever that final ingredient is – players, management, luck … whatever. I don’t see a massive desire within the club to strive to improve, or at least I did not last summer with the signing only of one player in Cech.

I know at the beginning of the season that we have no ****ing hope in Europe to the point that I don’t even really see any point in our annual involvement other than making up numbers and allowing UEFA to facilitate group structures and a draw. And of course the financial rewards but forgive me for not really getting much excitement from them.

Last season was incredibly predictable in how it all panned out.

Personally, and perhaps incorrectly, I lay it at the feet of the manager. The buck stops with him as such.

I would like to see change at managerial level to see what it brings about, to see if a new incumbent can achieve more given the huge resources available to him. I know this brings no guarantee of success, even the success we have now which in reality is not success but is seen as success.

That’s not to say Wenger is a bad manager, or that Pochetinno is better, or Koeman or whoever else is this summer’s fancied one.

I am just bored of the old **** now.

I am not a banner****.

Or to put it more succinctly, change for change's sake.

[SWv2]

Or to put it more succinctly, change for change's sake.

Perhaps so.

I have no fear of change, you do. It is quite obvious as more often than not you equate the departure of Wenger with absolute doom and failure. You rarely if ever countenance the option that a successor may continue the good work done and reap the benefits of the club structure now in place.

[Sir C]

I find supporting Arsenal to be quite boring at the moment, or predictable perhaps a better word.

I know we are not going to win the league as we simply appear to be lacking whatever that final ingredient is – players, management, luck … whatever. I don’t see a massive desire within the club to strive to improve, or at least I did not last summer with the signing only of one player in Cech.

I know at the beginning of the season that we have no ****ing hope in Europe to the point that I don’t even really see any point in our annual involvement other than making up numbers and allowing UEFA to facilitate group structures and a draw. And of course the financial rewards but forgive me for not really getting much excitement from them.

Last season was incredibly predictable in how it all panned out.

Personally, and perhaps incorrectly, I lay it at the feet of the manager. The buck stops with him as such.

I would like to see change at managerial level to see what it brings about, to see if a new incumbent can achieve more given the huge resources available to him. I know this brings no guarantee of success, even the success we have now which in reality is not success but is seen as success.

That’s not to say Wenger is a bad manager, or that Pochetinno is better, or Koeman or whoever else is this summer’s fancied one.

I am just bored of the old **** now.

I am not a banner****.

You're not bored with following Arsenal, or with Wenger. You're simply older now, and no longer have the enthusiasm of youth.

In short, you are dead inside.

[Monty92]

Perhaps so.

I have no fear of change, you do. It is quite obvious as more often than not you equate the departure of Wenger with absolute doom and failure. You rarely if ever countenance the option that a successor may continue the good work done and reap the benefits of the club structure now in place.

I'm sorry but this is absolutely not true. I have frequently stated that there is absolutely no fundamental reason why change could not be a positive move and that it's entirely possible that his successor move us forwards.

[SWv2]

You're not bored with following Arsenal, or with Wenger. You're simply older now, and no longer have the enthusiasm of youth.

In short, you are dead inside.

You’ll be ****ing dead pal if you keep bitching at me like a wee Dutch bitch.

[Monty92]

If you're so keen for evidence today, where is your evidence that 'they' all want to swap him? Is there evidence that Arsene is better than Poch *today*? This doesn't count past achievements. Players have their day. Managers can too.

No less evidence than there is that Wenger, Koeman and Bilic are better managers than Mourinho.

As for them all wanting to swap him, I said that many of them would. Do you disagree?

[Sir C]

You’ll be ****ing dead pal if you keep bitching at me like a wee Dutch bitch.

Keep your hair on mate. Well, the couple of remaining strands, anyway.

[The Jorge]

You’ll be ****ing dead pal if you keep bitching at me like a wee Dutch bitch.

Is it just me or....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68BrauMLt_0

Cut his arm off, C!

[Ash]

No less evidence than there is that Wenger, Koeman and Bilic are better managers than Mourinho.

So with little or no conclusive evidence when comparing managers either way it all comes down to opinions.


As for them all wanting to swap him, I said that many of them would. Do you disagree?

I have no idea. Some probably do. I don't know about many. Some might still want Brendan Rodgers, or Roberto Martinez, or Gary Monk for all I know. I expect a lot of people would say that Pochettino might be a decent alternative to AW but wouldn't claim to have 'proof' or conclusive evidence.

Maybe with your elitemeejaskillz you could get the Daily Mirror to run a poll, for Arsenal fans, if they would swap Arsene for Mo Po today.

[Monty92]

So with little or no conclusive evidence when comparing managers either way it all comes down to opinions.



I have no idea. Some probably do. I don't know about many. Some might still want Brendan Rodgers, or Roberto Martinez, or Gary Monk for all I know. I expect a lot of people would say that Pochettino might be a decent alternative to AW but wouldn't claim to have 'proof' or conclusive evidence.

Maybe with your elitemeejaskillz you could get the Daily Mirror to run a poll, for Arsenal fans, if they would swap Arsene for Mo Po today.

But we're not even talking about conclusive evidence. There is not any substantive evidence that he's a better manager. On the one metric you pointed out, Wenger has shown himself to be far more successful - and in recent times, too. And, crucially, not just in a season where all the big clubs massively imploded, as Poch has done.

So I put it to you that there is more evidence that Wenger is the better manager. Therefore, it is bizarre to want to swap them, when, as I have said, Wenger could conceivably manage us for many more years. Certainly into his early 70s.

[7sisters]

But we're not even talking about conclusive evidence. There is not any substantive evidence that he's a better manager. On the one metric you pointed out, Wenger has shown himself to be far more successful - and in recent times, too. And, crucially, not just in a season where all the big clubs massively imploded, as Poch has done.

So I put it to you that there is more evidence that Wenger is the better manager. Therefore, it is bizarre to want to swap them, when, as I have said, Wenger could conceivably manage us for many more years. Certainly into his early 70s.

There is no evidence to support Poch over Wenger, nor any other current PL manager come to that. Any meaningful comparison would require at least a ten year tenure and fairly like for like resources.

Consider also the contrasting results of Ranieri at both Chelsea and Lester. Further proof if required that success extends beyond the efforts of one man.

[redgunamo]

Wenger could conceivably manage us for many more years. Certainly into his early 70s.

Especially now that His saucy dollybird wife has run off, poor *******. Asking for it though, I suppose, watching all that football.

[Ash]

Especially now that His saucy dollybird wife has run off, poor *******. Asking for it though, I suppose, watching all that football.

He might also have been asking for it by ****ing the filthy little strumpet in Paris that he kept on the side.

[7sisters]

He might also have been asking for it by ****ing the filthy little strumpet in Paris that he kept on the side.

That's very French of course. I'm not sure they consider that a sin over there, rather par for the course.

[redgunamo]

He might also have been asking for it by ****ing the filthy little strumpet in Paris that he kept on the side.

T'other way about, I reckon; the lifestyle inevitably leads to the strumpets. You always have a choice between spending your time at work or spending it with your family. Too many people simply make the "wrong" choice.

[redgunamo]

Here’s what we know about Arsenal and Spurs this season:

Spurs are seen to have had an outstanding season while Arsenal are seen to have had a highly disappointing one. This is despite the fact that Arsenal finished above Spurs, albeit by the smallest of margins.

The reasons for this discrepancy are:

1.DIFFERING EXPECTATIONS
After brief flirtations with the top four following several years of significant spending, this season they not only achieved a CL position but also challenged for the title. And they did so with an impressively low net spend since Pocchetino arrived at the club.
By contrast, Arsenal have been striving to make a serious title challenge for several years and, as we are led to believe, have now had three years where we’ve not had to sell any big players and have also had the funds to compete on a more level playing field with the world’s biggest clubs (albeit still at a distinct disadvantage). In spite of this, after Christmas we were unable to build anything close to the kind of momentum required to win the league. To make matters worse, the quality of football was often unconvincing. And of course the biggest compounding factor: when it became apparent that Chelsea, Man Utd and Man City were all under-performing to varying degrees, you would hope that the team would be suitably emboldened to capitalise on this weakened field. They failed to do so – and pretty miserably, too.

2. QUALITY OF FOOTBALL
Not only did Spurs achieve their start-of-season aim of finishing in the top four, they did so playing a distinctive brand of high-energy football of the type associated with many of the world’s pre-eminent managers (Klopp, Simeone, Guardiola).
By contrast, Arsenal appeared to demonstrate many of their time-honoured flaws, or, to put it bluntly, a squad that simply isn’t good enough in terms of personnel, tactical cohesion or mentality.

All of this makes total sense. But I do think there are some points to consider:

1) Leicester won the league on 81 points. Not a notably high points total but still higher than two title wins since the turn of the decade. So, even though the usual suspects did not challenge this season, to win the league we still had to beat the kind of points total you would have expected from one of the usual suspects.
2) I can't help thinking there is an inconsistency in saying that Arsenal missed a great opportunity to win the league, but not to say the same about Spurs. Any fan or pundit asked before the season to make a snap judgement on Spurs, hypothetically, finishing below Leicester would have said that it would be a disappointing season. We know that Leicester proved to be a much better team than anyone gave them credit for – good enough to only lose three games all season. But it still seems odd that Arsenal would be castigated for failing to finish above them, while Spurs are hailed for not only finishing below them, but us too.
3) This is not the first season in recent memory Spurs have finished in the top four. They did so under the much maligned Harry Redknapp, also playing a generally attacking, exciting brand of football. This was also achieved during a season in which the usual suspects were far more competitive. Is there not an argument that Redknapp’s achievement was the greater?

I can, of course, see why Pocchetino is seen as a manager with good potential. Without knowing the ins and outs of his management style, he clearly convinces those who work with him and, as an outsider, that is perhaps the most compelling evidence of a manager’s quality.

But I don’t think, at this stage, we can say with particular confidence that he’s a better manager than Wenger – or will be in the future. And yet, I think most of our fans (both moderates and banner****s) would swap them in a heartbeart. This strikes me as bizarre and further proof that what people actually want is change for changes sake.

I do fear for you, when Wenger finally, necessarily does leave us. Do you have some sort of impenetrable Daddy Issues or something?

[Monty92]

I do fear for you, when Wenger finally, necessarily does leave us. Do you have some sort of impenetrable Daddy Issues or something?

What the **** are you talking about? As I've said already in this thread, and countless times previously, there's absolutely no reason why Wenger leaving won't be a positive thing and that maybe he should have left already.

This is in no way inconsistent with anything else I've said.

[redgunamo]

What the **** are you talking about? As I've said already in this thread, and countless times previously, there's absolutely no reason why Wenger leaving won't be a positive thing and that maybe he should have left already.

This is in no way inconsistent with anything else I've said.

Everyone's wondering why you keep banging on about it then.

It's football. **** happens. Everything our club does is a missed opportunity to do or have done something else.

It makes no difference to our support for the club either way.

End of. :shrug:

[Ash]

But we're not even talking about conclusive evidence. There is not any substantive evidence that he's a better manager. On the one metric you pointed out, Wenger has shown himself to be far more successful - and in recent times, too. And, crucially, not just in a season where all the big clubs massively imploded, as Poch has done.

So I put it to you that there is more evidence that Wenger is the better manager. Therefore, it is bizarre to want to swap them, when, as I have said, Wenger could conceivably manage us for many more years. Certainly into his early 70s.

What you mean there is that he has more experience and a longer track record of doing a good job. Not much the younger man can do to compete with that.

[redgunamo]

What you mean there is that he has more experience and a longer track record of doing a good job. Not much the younger man can do to compete with that.

That Pep chap seems to be doing alright.

[Ash]

That Pep chap seems to be doing alright.

But can we prove that Pep is a better manager than Wenger? #roundandroundagain

[Luis Anaconda]

But can we prove that Pep is a better manager than Wenger? #roundandroundagain
I can get witness statements from several thousand Bavarians that wouldn't be too complimentary

[Ash]

But we're not even talking about conclusive evidence. There is not any substantive evidence that he's a better manager. On the one metric you pointed out, Wenger has shown himself to be far more successful - and in recent times, too. And, crucially, not just in a season where all the big clubs massively imploded, as Poch has done.

So I put it to you that there is more evidence that Wenger is the better manager. Therefore, it is bizarre to want to swap them, when, as I have said, Wenger could conceivably manage us for many more years. Certainly into his early 70s.

Also, you've taken the metric that I suggested and applied it to previous seasons, where he does well, but haven't applied it to this one, where he has done less well. We don't know if Poch is a better manager or not but I think we can say he's had a better season. We'll know better this time next year. #judgemenextmay

I'd like Arsene to win the league next year and then take another contract if he wants it. He should delegate a bit though. He's not so young any more.

[redgunamo]

I can get witness statements from several thousand Bavarians that wouldn't be too complimentary

Pah! I said years ago that he would be lucky to get a contract extension there as his face didn't really fit all that well.

[redgunamo]

But can we prove that Pep is a better manager than Wenger? #roundandroundagain

#judgethembothnextmay

[Luis Anaconda]

Pah! I said years ago that he would be lucky to get a contract extension there as his face didn't really fit all that well.

Indeed. Mehr als ein club

[Monty92]

And, for the sake of argument, if Poch became attainable next summer? Or indeed this?

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

****ing flatviewer.

[Monty92]

Are you one of the ****s who helped make this abortion of a new board?

[Alberto Balsam Rodriguez]

Personally, and perhaps incorrectly, I lay it at the feet of the manager. The buck stops with him as such.


I guess it is easy to blame Wenger because there is nothing to compare Wenger to. If Wenger were to leave and a new person does come in, it won't take long to see whether Wenger over achieved, under achieved or whether there are other factors influencing us.

[Mc Gooner]

What the **** are you talking about? As I've said already in this thread, and countless times previously, there's absolutely no reason why Wenger leaving won't be a positive thing and that maybe he should have left already.

This is in no way inconsistent with anything else I've said.

You kinda took the words out of my mouth.

What the **** are you talking about? As I've said already countless times previously, there's absolutely no reason why you leaving wouldn't be a positive thing and that maybe you should have left already.

This is in no way inconsistent with anything I've ever said.

[Alberto Balsam Rodriguez]

It is not necessarily differing expectations. Both teams want to be at the top of the league and challenge for the title.

I think it is fair to say that Spurs challenged for the league right up until the middle of April, while our challenge was petering out by the beginning of March. That is one reason that breeds the perception that Spurs did better than us.

It is probably also fair to say that the comparison between our season to Spurs season is not an equal comparison. Spurs' season is probably being compared to previous Spurs seasons while our season is being compared to our previous campaigns. It is the improvement Spurs appear to have made that seems to be stirring that perception, i.e. they are going in the right direction. The perception of Arsenal's season is that it is same old failings, same old mistakes. Nothing has changed, all of the usual failings are there, we didn't make any outfield signings, etc, etc, basically, a down beat assessment. The other perception is that Spurs have played to close to their potential, while we have played well below it. Whether this is genuinely true is debatable.

Something to consider. Spurs have had something like 13 managers in the last 20 years. It is much easier to see how the current regime is doing compared with previous regimes. It is quite a lot harder to see whether Arsenal are over achieving, under achieving or just about where we should be. We have had Wenger for nearly 20 years, there is nothing to compare it against. We do not know how anyone else would have done as there is just no example of it. I think this lack of ability to compare is a big factor in the differing perceptions of the fans. Those that want change because it is ground hog day and Wenger has taken us as far as he can. Those that want Wenger to stay because he has done wonders to keep things ticking over while we had to manage the stadium fallout and the rise of the sugar daddy. The reality might be somewhere along that spectrum, who knows. I think it will only start to become apparent about a year or so after Wenger leaves.

[Ash]

Some fairly sensible comments there, Alberto Balsam Rodriguez.

Now, tell us who you were on the old board. :-D

[redgunamo]

Some fairly sensible comments there, Alberto Balsam Rodriguez.

Now, tell us who you were on the old board. :-D

With posts like that, this gentleman must be new, I think.

[redgunamo]

You kinda took the words out of my mouth.

What the **** are you talking about? As I've said already countless times previously, there's absolutely no reason why you leaving wouldn't be a positive thing and that maybe you should have left already.

This is in no way inconsistent with anything I've ever said.

No, calling Monty a **** is always the most popular topic on here.

[Alberto Balsam Rodriguez]

A Tony C character ;-)

[Ash]

Monty - further to the discussion, here's a piece that might be considered evidence of Pochettino teams consistently falling apart at the end of the season.

Basically, his team have collapsed in the last four games, in five out of seven seasons.

http://www.7amkickoff.com/2016/pochettinos-spursy-collapse-lauded-by-pundits-who-irrationally-put-them-above-arsenal/

(Now, 7amstatto is not everyone's cup of tea, and he is a notorious flip-flopper, but he works hard with the numbers, even when he seems more interested in the data than the football.)

[Luis Anaconda]

Monty - further to the discussion, here's a piece that might be considered evidence of Pochettino teams consistently falling apart at the end of the season.

Basically, his team have collapsed in the last four games, in five out of seven seasons.

http://www.7amkickoff.com/2016/pochettinos-spursy-collapse-lauded-by-pundits-who-irrationally-put-them-above-arsenal/

(Now, 7amstatto is not everyone's cup of tea, and he is a notorious flip-flopper, but he works hard with the numbers, even when he seems more interested in the data than the football.)

Interesting stuff