I would like Awimb's expert option on a medication matter.

[Pat Vegas]

Let's say you have a headache.

you wish to buy some Ibuprofen.
You see the cheap supermarket version and you see Nurofen you look at the packets and both seem to have the same ingredients.

yet imo the expensive stuff works much better and the cheap stuff doesn't work.

Is this a placebo or you get what you pay for?

[IUFG]

Nurofen* and such like usually have a combination of ingredients (not just Ibuprofen or Paracetamol for example)

* http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35090087

Anyway, MTFU imo

[Burney]

Let's say you have a headache.

you wish to buy some Ibuprofen.
You see the cheap supermarket version and you see Nurofen you look at the packets and both seem to have the same ingredients.

yet imo the expensive stuff works much better and the cheap stuff doesn't work.

Is this a placebo or you get what you pay for?

In double blind tests, the expensive branded stuff has been proven to work better than cheap supermarket own brand stuff. They have precisely the same ingredients, but people expect them to work better, so they do. Equally, an injection always works better than pills (despite there being no physiological reason for it to do so) and it works even better if delivered by a doctor rather than a nurse.

This is all covered in 'Bad Science' by Ben Goldacre.

[TheCurly]

Mrs C swears by the male equivalent of products (shampoos,creams etc) are always far superior than the lady versions.

[Burney]

Mrs C swears by the male equivalent of products (shampoos,creams etc) are always far superior than the lady versions.

Well they're usually the same, but the lady versions are just more expensive.

[TheCurly]

Well they're usually the same, but the lady versions are just more expensive.

She's forever dyeing her hair B,every 2/3 weeks when she uses the female version.She reckons the male ones last 6 weeks

[Burney]

She's forever dyeing her hair B,every 2/3 weeks when she uses the female version.She reckons the male ones last 6 weeks

So not 'Just For Men', eh?

[TheCurly]

So not 'Just For Men', eh?
It's all gonna fall out one day is what it is

[Burney]

It's all gonna fall out one day is what it is

Still, as long as she keeps the beard, eh?

[SWv2]

Let's say you have a headache.

you wish to buy some Ibuprofen.
You see the cheap supermarket version and you see Nurofen you look at the packets and both seem to have the same ingredients.

yet imo the expensive stuff works much better and the cheap stuff doesn't work.

Is this a placebo or you get what you pay for?

You are better off just buying your everyday paracetamol as that holds all the life saving spices you need.

The extras etc you get in a Nurofen or whatever are simply there to fool you and think you are getting extra.

[Ash]

Let's say you have a headache.

you wish to buy some Ibuprofen.
You see the cheap supermarket version and you see Nurofen you look at the packets and both seem to have the same ingredients.

yet imo the expensive stuff works much better and the cheap stuff doesn't work.

Is this a placebo or you get what you pay for?

The expensive stuff doesn't work better. Once you relieve yourself of the notion that a glossy carton and an expensive TV advertising campaign magically makes it work better, you will find that your confidence in the actual medical ingredients (being identical) makes the inexpensive one work just as well.

[Burney]

The expensive stuff doesn't work better. Once you relieve yourself of the notion that a glossy carton and an expensive TV advertising campaign magically makes it work better, you will find that your confidence in the actual medical ingredients (being identical) makes the inexpensive one work just as well.

Yes, but rendering oneself immune to the placebo effect isn't quite as simple as knowing you're affected by it. You can know all that intellectually and still be affected by glossy packaging to the extent that an expensive pill will work better. The human mind is an extraordinary thing and it's very wrong to assume that placebo only works on the ignorant.

[Ash]

Yes, but rendering oneself immune to the placebo effect isn't quite as simple as knowing you're affected by it. You can know all that intellectually and still be affected by glossy packaging to the extent that an expensive pill will work better. The human mind is an extraordinary thing and it's very wrong to assume that placebo only works on the ignorant.

Pffft. Sounds like excuses for profligate stupidity to me. :sniff:

[Burney]

Pffft. Sounds like excuses for profligate stupidity to me. :sniff:

Except for the fact that study after study has shown that branded, more expensive remedies are more effective - even among people who know that the cheap ones contain the same stuff. :shrug:

[TheCurly]

Except for the fact that study after study has shown that branded, more expensive remedies are more effective - even among people who know that the cheap ones contain the same stuff. :shrug:

You forever see all these "street tastings" of luxury supermarket beers and wines being pitted against the Aldi ones and no matter how many times the cheapo ones are considered "better" it never seems to be reflected in sales

[The Jorge]

Let's say you have a headache.

you wish to buy some Ibuprofen.
You see the cheap supermarket version and you see Nurofen you look at the packets and both seem to have the same ingredients.

yet imo the expensive stuff works much better and the cheap stuff doesn't work.

Is this a placebo or you get what you pay for?

PAGING Dr NERG!

[Ash]

Except for the fact that study after study has shown that branded, more expensive remedies are more effective - even among people who know that the cheap ones contain the same stuff. :shrug:

The Royal Pharmaceutical Society doesn't think so.
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2008/apr/08/healthandwellbeing.consumeraffairs

Nor does The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/money-saving-tips/11956383/Should-I-spend-1.45-on-branded-painkillers-or-19p-at-the-supermarket.html

Nor professor of biophysical pharmaceutics at Kings College London
http://news.sky.com/story/1563842/sky-investigation-branded-painkillers-do-same-job

I see that the British Psychological society has referred to a NZ study that claimed to demonstrate the placebo effect, but hardly 'study after study'.

[Burney]

The Royal Pharmaceutical Society doesn't think so.
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2008/apr/08/healthandwellbeing.consumeraffairs

Nor does The Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/money-saving-tips/11956383/Should-I-spend-1.45-on-branded-painkillers-or-19p-at-the-supermarket.html

Nor professor of biophysical pharmaceutics at Kings College London
http://news.sky.com/story/1563842/sky-investigation-branded-painkillers-do-same-job

I see that the British Psychological society has referred to a NZ study that claimed to demonstrate the placebo effect, but hardly 'study after study'.

These are all simply studies relating to the drugs' chemical components - which aren't in dispute.

I honestly don't say any of this to be contrary. This is a genuinely fascinating area and it is well worth reading Goldacre's book (even though I strongly suspect he's a filthy lefty).

http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/03/04/placebos-might-work-even-better-with-a-brand-name/

http://www.badscience.net/2008/03/all-bow-before-the-might-of-the-placebo-effect-it-is-the-coolest-strangest-thing-in-medicine/

[Ash]

These are all simply studies relating to the drugs' chemical components - which aren't in dispute.

I honestly don't say any of this to be contrary. This is a genuinely fascinating area and it is well worth reading Goldacre's book (even though I strongly suspect he's a filthy lefty).

http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/03/04/placebos-might-work-even-better-with-a-brand-name/

http://www.badscience.net/2008/03/all-bow-before-the-might-of-the-placebo-effect-it-is-the-coolest-strangest-thing-in-medicine/

The Goldacre piece cites one study from 50 years ago that suggested that placebos can work for people that know its a placebo. And they were given to neurotics. The other finds that the placebo believed to be more expensive was more effective but they didn't know it was a placebo.

So nothing here is going to tempt me from the 30p painkillers, but by all means keep shelling out on the Nurofen if it works for you. :thumbup:

[Burney]

The Goldacre piece cites one study from 50 years ago that suggested that placebos can work for people that know its a placebo. And they were given to neurotics. The other finds that the placebo believed to be more expensive was more effective but they didn't know it was a placebo.

So nothing here is going to tempt me from the 30p painkillers, but by all means keep shelling out on the Nurofen if it works for you. :thumbup:

That Goldacre piece is just scratching the surface of the placebo business. There's a load more stuff he cites in his book that's well worth exploring.

For the record, I also use cheap supermarket painkillers. However, I don't necessarily think that makes me immune to placebo. The subject is a real eye-opener and makes it clear that our susceptibility to placebo is affected by a huge number of environmental, societal and cultural factors. For instance, in Africa, a sugar pill issued by a white doctor will be more effective than one issued by a black doctor, while an injection on the same terms is hugely more effective. It's a fascinating subject and genuinely mind-blowing- particularly for anyone who thinks we are rational beings.

[Ash]

If we were wholly rational beings I suspect we wouldn't support football teams. :-(