The authorities are getting a serious kicking at the Hillsborough inquest.

[SWv2]

Justice etc.

Does this mean it is over or simply a prelude to loads of new individual cases against the coppers?

[The Jorge]

Justice etc.

Does this mean it is over or simply a prelude to loads of new individual cases against the coppers?

I think it's more likely it'll be against S Yorks Police.

[SWv2]

I think it's more likely it'll be against S Yorks Police.

Yes, that's what I meant, South Yorkshire Constabulary or whatever.

[The Jorge]

Yes, that's what I meant, South Yorkshire Constabulary or whatever.

Quite an amazing letter from Bernard Ingham, all the same. What a cund.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cg9i4R1WUAAUZ7a.jpg

[7sisters]

Mike Leigh will be pouring over the script, can't wait for the premiere and even more martyrdom.

[Pat Vegas]

I haven't been following this (what a surprise)
But why are they still having inquests? seems like they will keep doing it and doing it until a certain group what they want.

[redgunamo]

Quite an amazing letter from Bernard Ingham, all the same. What a cund.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cg9i4R1WUAAUZ7a.jpg

That last paragraph is what most of the rest of us have thought all along, isn't it?

[TheCurly]

Justice etc.

Does this mean it is over or simply a prelude to loads of new individual cases against the coppers?

Surely it couldn't have been ALL the cops fault?

[Pat Vegas]

You can't go around saying that Red,

It's not like their fans were involved in anything like that in the past.

[The Jorge]

That last paragraph is what most of the rest of us have thought all along, isn't it?

I imagine it might be what a fair few people thought, though it wasnt my feeling about the whole thing. It's debatable whether that whole narrative was due to ingrained prejudice or due to how it was spun immediately afterwards by people like Ingham, his boss and their boss Murdoch.

[redgunamo]

Surely it couldn't have been ALL the cops fault?

No, there was Maggie Thatcher too, I think.

[Billy Goat Sverige]

Surely it couldn't have been ALL the cops fault?

Yeah but they've had 27 years of building public opinion to think that it was a tragedy and the fault of the police. I'm not sure you'd ever get a fair and honest outcome from this inquest.

BITE JORGE!!

[redgunamo]

Yes, but you're "different", George. We've established that.


I imagine it might be what a fair few people thought, though it wasnt my feeling about the whole thing. It's debatable whether that whole narrative was due to ingrained prejudice or due to how it was spun immediately afterwards by people like Ingham, his boss and their boss Murdoch.

[Sir C]

I imagine it might be what a fair few people thought, though it wasnt my feeling about the whole thing. It's debatable whether that whole narrative was due to ingrained prejudice or due to how it was spun immediately afterwards by people like Ingham, his boss and their boss Murdoch.

So there weren't any pissed up yobs pushing their way in?

Who did the pushing, then? Was it the police?

[The Jorge]

So there weren't any pissed up yobs pushing their way in?

Who did the pushing, then? Was it the police?

If only a team of learned, sensible, compassionate and impartial people had spent two years examining all of the evidence.

[TheCurly]

So there weren't any pissed up yobs pushing their way in?

Who did the pushing, then? Was it the police?

The FA,LFC,the fans and local pub owners are not squeaky clean in this

[SWv2]

Surely it couldn't have been ALL the cops fault?

One would have assumed an element of blame to be attached to both parties?

Is that wrong of me.

[TheCurly]

One would have assumed an element of blame to be attached to both parties?

Is that wrong of me.

No,I quite agree.

[redgunamo]

If only a team of learned, sensible, compassionate and impartial people had spent two years examining all of the evidence.

loooooooooooooooooooooooooool.

[The Jorge]

Yes, but you're "different", George. We've established that.

Not that different, it would seem

[7sisters]

I imagine it might be what a fair few people thought, though it wasnt my feeling about the whole thing. It's debatable whether that whole narrative was due to ingrained prejudice or due to how it was spun immediately afterwards by people like Ingham, his boss and their boss Murdoch.

Narrative :redcard:

[Sir C]

The FA,LFC,the fans and local pub owners are not squeaky clean in this

Exactly. Blaming it on one entity and absolving everyone else is tidy, but nonsensical.

[Sir C]

If only a team of learned, sensible, compassionate and impartial people had spent two years examining all of the evidence.

:clap: Even more delusional than usual. wd j.

[The Jorge]

Narrative :redcard:

narrative
ˈnarətɪv/Submit
noun
1.
a spoken or written account of connected events; a story.
"a gripping narrative"
synonyms: account, story, tale, chronicle, history, description, record, portrayal, sketch, portrait, statement, report, rehearsal, recital, rendering
"a chronological narrative of Stark's life"
the narrated part of a literary work, as distinct from dialogue.
"the dialogue and the narrative suffer from awkward syntax"
the practice or art of telling stories.
"traditions of oral narrative"
a representation of a particular situation or process in such a way as to reflect or conform to an overarching set of aims or values.
"the coalition's carefully constructed narrative about its sensitivity to recession victims"

[Pat Vegas]

shame Arsene Wenger wasn't then about we could blame him.

[The Jorge]

Sorry, explain to me how this is delusional

[Pat Vegas]

Sorry, explain to me how this is delusional

:-( This is going to end badly. can't we all get along we are all victims at the end of the day :hug:

[IUFG]

what he SHOULD have known is that you don't commit that sort of thing to written word.

even though there is probably an *element* of truth therein.

[7sisters]

narrative
ˈnarətɪv/Submit
noun
1.
a spoken or written account of connected events; a story.
"a gripping narrative"
synonyms: account, story, tale, chronicle, history, description, record, portrayal, sketch, portrait, statement, report, rehearsal, recital, rendering
"a chronological narrative of Stark's life"
the narrated part of a literary work, as distinct from dialogue.
"the dialogue and the narrative suffer from awkward syntax"
the practice or art of telling stories.
"traditions of oral narrative"
a representation of a particular situation or process in such a way as to reflect or conform to an overarching set of aims or values.
"the coalition's carefully constructed narrative about its sensitivity to recession victims"

Media word****ery

[The Jorge]

I think you'll find it's totally congruous, apposite even.

[redgunamo]

Not that different, it would seem

No. "Different".

[Herbette Chapman - aged 15]

If only a team of learned, sensible, compassionate and impartial people had spent two years examining all of the evidence.

Really J? I think today everyone feels even more pressure to conform to the zeitgeist. And the zeitgeist holds that any suggestion of fan culpability is remiss and somehow reactionary. And most frighteningly, unleashes the opprobrium of the Mersey Hive on one's head.

We were all little ****s back then. A great many of the police were ****s. Margaret Thatcher was the biggest **** of all but IT WAS AN ACCIDENT!

[Herbette Chapman - aged 15]

I think you'll find it's totally congruous, apposite even.

Just say pertinent ya big posh poof. I am actaully sick of every pseudo intellectual I know crowbarring 'narrative' into every....err every......errr narrative :-D

[The Jorge]

Just say pertinent ya big posh poof. I am actaully sick of every pseudo intellectual I know crowbarring 'narrative' into every....err every......errr narrative :-D

Your mum's pertinent, for 104 anyway

[The Jorge]

Like manslaughter is an accident

[redgunamo]

We were all little ****s back then.

Right. It was the whole point of going to the football, in fact.

[Herbette Chapman - aged 15]

It was not manslaughter J. The whole incident was appallingly managed by everyone involved but everything was back then. We were ALL ****

[The Jorge]

No, it was Unlawful Killing. My point is that manslaughter is also an accident, arising as it does from gross negligence without malice or premeditation.

[Herbette Chapman - aged 15]

Right. It was the whole point of going to the football, in fact.

Aye. We were an army of raucous, beer swilling mischief makers; typical young Brits in fact. Hillsboro' was one of the "slum stadia" Taylor cited in his pivotal report. Ibrox was the precursor years before and we failed collectively to heed the warning.

[Herbette Chapman - aged 15]

No, it was Unlawful Killing

I gave your mum a right killing last night mate.

[PSRB]

No,I quite agree.

Me too.....

[redgunamo]

Aye. We were an army of raucous, beer swilling mischief makers; typical young Brits in fact. Hillsboro' was one of the "slum stadia" Taylor cited in his pivotal report. Ibrox was the precursor years before and we failed collectively to heed the warning.

George has read a few books since then though, and he doesn't care who knows it.

[Burney]

Quite an amazing letter from Bernard Ingham, all the same. What a cund.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cg9i4R1WUAAUZ7a.jpg

wd Bernard Ingham. Ledge imo :clap: :bow:

[The Jorge]

You're aware the police opened the gates and lied about it, yes?

[Burney]

You're aware the police opened the gates and lied about it, yes?

So? They opened the gates to stop the scouse ****s outside the ground killing fans there. All they did was move the problem from one place to another, but that's an understandable mistake under pressure.

[The Jorge]

So? They opened the gates to stop the scouse ****s outside the ground killing fans there. All they did was move the problem from one place to another, but that's an understandable mistake under pressure.

Right, but why lie and blame the fans? Also, surely logic would dictate that allowing people in was going to cause more serious problems.

[Burney]

Right, but why lie and blame the fans? Also, surely logic would dictate that allowing people in was going to cause more serious problems.

They lied for the reason people always lie: to avoid blame and its consequences. However, the fact that they lied does not absolve the fans outside the ground from responsibility. Acknowledgement of that fact is what's missing from this absurd, rigged blame-circus.

[The Jorge]

They lied for the reason people always lie: to avoid blame and its consequences. However, the fact that they lied does not absolve the fans outside the ground from responsibility. Acknowledgement of that fact is what's missing from this absurd, rigged blame-circus.

Read this, the level of incompetence, mendacity and lack of shame is quite breathtaking http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades

In retrospect, I dont think that was the greatest choice of words, was it?

[Burney]

Read this, the level of incompetence, mendacity and lack of shame is quite breathtaking http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades

In retrospect, I dont think that was the greatest choice of words, was it?

:hehe: No, not really.

What I read there is a rather hyperbolic piece with a clear anti-police agenda (the constant mentions of the miners' strike tell me why). Nobody is saying the police covered themselves in glory - they clearly indulged in a cover-up. However, my point remains that there is still no attachment of blame to the people who caused the problem - Liverpool fans arriving late and causing a potentially lethal crush outside the ground. That omission is dishonest and tells me this whole thing is a sham.

[The Jorge]

:hehe: No, not really.

What I read there is a rather hyperbolic piece with a clear anti-police agenda (the constant mentions of the miners' strike tell me why). Nobody is saying the police covered themselves in glory - they clearly indulged in a cover-up. However, my point remains that there is still no attachment of blame to the people who caused the problem - Liverpool fans arriving late and causing a potentially lethal crush outside the ground. That omission is dishonest and tells me this whole thing is a sham.

The fans have been blamed for 27 years, everyone else escaping any censure at all. And, of course the miner's strike was relevant, it was the same police force and the same cover up.

:hehe: "Anti-Police agenda" **** me, and you wonder why

[Pokster]

:hehe: No, not really.

What I read there is a rather hyperbolic piece with a clear anti-police agenda (the constant mentions of the miners' strike tell me why). Nobody is saying the police covered themselves in glory - they clearly indulged in a cover-up. However, my point remains that there is still no attachment of blame to the people who caused the problem - Liverpool fans arriving late and causing a potentially lethal crush outside the ground. That omission is dishonest and tells me this whole thing is a sham.

Sorry b, you are talking absolute ****e here.... there had been trouble at previous semi finals at H and I had been at a league cup game where I felt like I was getting crushed in the same pens... so to blame Liverpool fans for turning up late (what do you classify as late) is a strange choice when the same or similar things had happened at the same ground in the past.

[Burney]

Sorry b, you are talking absolute ****e here.... there had been trouble at previous semi finals at H and I had been at a league cup game where I felt like I was getting crushed in the same pens... so to blame Liverpool fans for turning up late (what do you classify as late) is a strange choice when the same or similar things had happened at the same ground in the past.

Well the game was going on when the trouble started, so they were certainly late. However, more importantly, they were pushing to get in and causing a potentially lethal crush outside the ground. Surely you don't deny that?

[Pokster]

Well the game was going on when the trouble started, so they were certainly late. However, more importantly, they were pushing to get in and causing a potentially lethal crush outside the ground. Surely you don't deny that?

The trouble started before the game kicked off, the trouble started because the game/crowds weren't policed correctly, the pushing happened because the police didn't do their jobs, if they had policed it like they had in previous years then it wouldn't have happened. So the Police caused it. If you don't Police it and let thousands of fans turn up at an entrance unsupervised then of course you will get pushing... but crucially, that isn't the fans fault, it is the Police's.

[The Jorge]

The trouble started before the game kicked off, the trouble started because the game/crowds weren't policed correctly, the pushing happened because the police didn't do their jobs, if they had policed it like they had in previous years then it wouldn't have happened. So the Police caused it. If you don't Police it and let thousands of fans turn up at an entrance unsupervised then of course you will get pushing... but crucially, that isn't the fans fault, it is the Police's.

Yes but they'd sacked the last guy in charge and decided to give this to Duckenfield as his first game at Hillsborough, where he hadnt even been for 10 years. It seems even the police have an anti-police bias.

[Pokster]

Yes but they'd sacked the last guy in charge and decided to give this to Duckenfield as his first game at Hillsborough, where he hadnt even been for 10 years. It seems even the police have an anti-police bias.

I know, was a monumental cock up from start to finish. it has always seemed very easy to blame fans when things happen but not question why they happened.

[Burney]

The trouble started before the game kicked off, the trouble started because the game/crowds weren't policed correctly, the pushing happened because the police didn't do their jobs, if they had policed it like they had in previous years then it wouldn't have happened. So the Police caused it. If you don't Police it and let thousands of fans turn up at an entrance unsupervised then of course you will get pushing... but crucially, that isn't the fans fault, it is the Police's.

So the fans pushing isn't the fans' fault? I'm sorry, but I struggle with that concept.

[TheCurly]

The trouble started before the game kicked off, the trouble started because the game/crowds weren't policed correctly, the pushing happened because the police didn't do their jobs, if they had policed it like they had in previous years then it wouldn't have happened. So the Police caused it. If you don't Police it and let thousands of fans turn up at an entrance unsupervised then of course you will get pushing... but crucially, that isn't the fans fault, it is the Police's.

The fans weren't faultless here P.Doesn't excuse the lies,the **** ups and the cover up.But still.

[Pokster]

So the fans pushing isn't the fans' fault? I'm sorry, but I struggle with that concept.

I can see you do. It is why they were pushing. If it isn't policed correctly then is that the fans fault? A bit like when 30 people are wanting to get on a tube train when there is room for 10, all normal reasoning goes out of the window.

If it had been policed correctly it wouldn't have happened... surely you can see this?

[Burney]

I can see you do. It is why they were pushing. If it isn't policed correctly then is that the fans fault? A bit like when 30 people are wanting to get on a tube train when there is room for 10, all normal reasoning goes out of the window.

If it had been policed correctly it wouldn't have happened... surely you can see this?

I'm sorry, but I don't excuse irrational and dangerous behaviour on the grounds that 'normal reasoning goes out the window'. Individuals have free will and the power to choose not to behave dangerously. The Liverpool fans outside the grounds did not exercise that choice, but instead chose to behave recklessly and irresponsibly and try to push their way in anyway, thus endangering the lives of their fellow fans. I do not and will never excuse them for that. The fact that there has been no acknowledgement of that fault during this process (indeed, people have gone out of their way not to mention it) is, I think, a disgrace.

[TheCurly]

I can see you do. It is why they were pushing. If it isn't policed correctly then is that the fans fault? A bit like when 30 people are wanting to get on a tube train when there is room for 10, all normal reasoning goes out of the window.

If it had been policed correctly it wouldn't have happened... surely you can see this?

I was coming out of Slane Castle,80,000 plus people.A couple of lads from Kildare started pushing for the lark,was a potential nightmare until they received a few clips.That's the problem with Midlanders you see,neither Northerners or Southerners.

[redgunamo]

I was coming out of Slane Castle,80,000 plus people.A couple of lads from Kildare started pushing for the lark,was a potential nightmare until they received a few clips.That's the problem with Midlanders you see,neither Northerners or Southerners.

My first visit to Wembley was the "Merseyside Cup Final". The police watched and laughed as many enterprising supporters already inside tied scarves together and used them to haul their mates up and in through the high windows at the back of the stands there.

Passion, you see.

[Ash]

So the fans pushing isn't the fans' fault? I'm sorry, but I struggle with that concept.

The trouble with the words "the fans", is that it ascribes a large number of individuals to one collective entity. Saying "the Liverpool fans were pushing" seems to accuse all of them of culpability, which cannot be right.

Also in other instances, where I hear "Arsenal fans blah blah blah" attributes a single opinion or action onto thousands of people which I find reductive and innacurate.

[redgunamo]

I blame Monty.


The trouble with the words "the fans", is that it ascribes a large number of individuals to one collective entity. Saying "the Liverpool fans were pushing" seems to accuse all of them of culpability, which cannot be right.

Also in other instances, where I hear "Arsenal fans blah blah blah" attributes a single opinion or action onto thousands of people which I find reductive and innacurate.

[IUFG]

Good call, r

[Burney]

The trouble with the words "the fans", is that it ascribes a large number of individuals to one collective entity. Saying "the Liverpool fans were pushing" seems to accuse all of them of culpability, which cannot be right.

Also in other instances, where I hear "Arsenal fans blah blah blah" attributes a single opinion or action onto thousands of people which I find reductive and innacurate.

That is absolutely a fair point that I accept unreservedly. However, what bothers me is that you will struggle to find any mention whatsoever of any Liverpool supporters being culpable either legally or morally throughout this entire charade. This seems genuinely bizarre to me. It has simply become an unsayable thing.

[Ash]

That is absolutely a fair point that I accept unreservedly. However, what bothers me is that you will struggle to find any mention whatsoever of any Liverpool supporters being culpable either legally or morally throughout this entire charade. This seems genuinely bizarre to me. It has simply become an unsayable thing.

Let's assume that there was some pushing going on, on the basis that a crush at one end requires force applied at the other. There will never be evidence to convict anyone of it though, so what's the point in attributing collective guilt, beyond having a general pop at scousers? The only way to get closure on this thing and to put it behind us is to string a few people up who can be found to be guilty and in this case it looks like they are going to be some coppers.

You don't like coppers anyway, ISTR, so defending them here seems as odd as Jorge suddenly singing the praises of British justice.

[Burney]

Let's assume that there was some pushing going on, on the basis that a crush at one end requires force applied at the other. There will never be evidence to convict anyone of it though, so what's the point in attributing collective guilt, beyond having a general pop at scousers? The only way to get closure on this thing and to put it behind us is to string a few people up who can be found to be guilty and in this case it looks like they are going to be some coppers.

You don't like coppers anyway, ISTR, so defending them here seems as odd as Jorge suddenly singing the praises of British justice.

You're right. I don't much like coppers - although on balance I prefer them to scousers.

However, I do have an issue with the way the police are being blamed solely, as though their failures occurred in a vacuum or as a result of some force of nature over which no other humans had control. I don't like that. It's an easy answer and it's a lie.

[redgunamo]

You're right. I don't much like coppers - although on balance I prefer them to scousers.

However, I do have an issue with the way the police are being blamed solely, as though their failures occurred in a vacuum or as a result of some force of nature over which no other humans had control. I don't like that. It's an easy answer and it's a lie.

:hehe: Yes, it does rather sound as though these supporters were just in the general area, minding their own business before the police rounded them all up and forced them into an enclosure which was too small for them all, just so they would inevitably crush each other to death. You know, just for a laugh.

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

That's the point though. A crowd is a force of nature.

If you wanted to asphyxiate someone, by yourself, you'd really have to put your back into it. To be part of a crowd that crushes people to death you merely have to keep moving forward a bit. Once you're a little further in you can't really get much further, but the bloke behind the bloke behind the bloke behind can squash up a bit, and does, and then you start getting pushed. You can't break that down to individual responsibility, or even group responsibility, unless the people at the back who are trying to get further forward are aware of the issues they're creating near the front. If you're the policeman doing crowd control, it's your responsibility to make sure they know and get them out.

[redgunamo]

From a professional point of view, I agree.

But exactly the same accountability concerns affect the authorities too. As you say, you can't break that down to individual responsibility, or even group responsibility.

But isn't that precisely what has happened here? Aren't we merely hunting, rather mean-spiritedly, in my view, for someone to blame, rather than accepting there were faults on all sides, tragic concatenation of circumstances and events, must do better in the future and so on?

[Burney]

From a professional point of view, I agree.

But exactly the same accountability concerns affect the authorities too. As you say, you can't break that down to individual responsibility, or even group responsibility.

But isn't that precisely what has happened here? Aren't we merely hunting, rather mean-spiritedly, in my view, for someone to blame, rather than accepting there were faults on all sides, tragic concatenation of circumstances and events, must do better in the future and so on?

This :nod:

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

From a professional point of view, I agree.

But exactly the same accountability concerns affect the authorities too. As you say, you can't break that down to individual responsibility, or even group responsibility.

But isn't that precisely what has happened here? Aren't we merely hunting, rather mean-spiritedly, in my view, for someone to blame, rather than accepting there were faults on all sides, tragic concatenation of circumstances and events, must do better in the future and so on?

Given your obvious :flatviewer: tendencies, I'm assuming that was a reply to me ;-)

The inquest jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing. That covers, for instance, gross negligent manslaughter. Negligence can be found in cases where a duty is neglected, which seems to be the clear in this instance. The jury hasn't apportioned blame to any individual (this may come from the CPS later).

While the failings can certainly be seen as a sequence of unfortunate circumstances and events, many of those are the result of actions and decisions (or lack of) that were entirely negligent. Some of those are quite possibly systemic and cultural to the W.Y. Police (which is why the references to the miners strike are valid), others are individual in nature. This wasn't a tragic accident that just happened, this was a disaster created by the actions of the police.

While I generally agree with you that if you want to find out why things happened so you can make sure they don't happen again you need a no-blame outlook, where honest mistakes are admitted, that doesn't equate to Hillsborough being some sort of six of one half a dozen of the other type of incident.

As for mean-spiritedly looking for someone to blame, the WY police have lied from the outset about what happened, withheld evidence from the Taylor report, amended written statements from officers and generally acted like the biggest ****s on the planet to the families of those that were killed. For twenty seven years.

The Liverpool fans didn't force the gate.
The Liverpool fans didn't piss on police officers, pickpocket the dead or fight with police.
The Liverpool fans weren't particularly drunk.
The Liverpool fans weren't a rowdy mob.

[Snin]

Justice etc.

Does this mean it is over or simply a prelude to loads of new individual cases against the coppers?

It's almost as if they didn't steam the turnstiles , attack police or nick wallets... time heals eh

[redgunamo]

I forgot to quote you. Sorry :sadface:


Given your obvious :flatviewer: tendencies, I'm assuming that was a reply to me ;-)

The inquest jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing. That covers, for instance, gross negligent manslaughter. Negligence can be found in cases where a duty is neglected, which seems to be the clear in this instance. The jury hasn't apportioned blame to any individual (this may come from the CPS later).

While the failings can certainly be seen as a sequence of unfortunate circumstances and events, many of those are the result of actions and decisions (or lack of) that were entirely negligent. Some of those are quite possibly systemic and cultural to the W.Y. Police (which is why the references to the miners strike are valid), others are individual in nature. This wasn't a tragic accident that just happened, this was a disaster created by the actions of the police.

While I generally agree with you that if you want to find out why things happened so you can make sure they don't happen again you need a no-blame outlook, where honest mistakes are admitted, that doesn't equate to Hillsborough being some sort of six of one half a dozen of the other type of incident.

As for mean-spiritedly looking for someone to blame, the WY police have lied from the outset about what happened, withheld evidence from the Taylor report, amended written statements from officers and generally acted like the biggest ****s on the planet to the families of those that were killed. For twenty seven years.

The Liverpool fans didn't force the gate.
The Liverpool fans didn't piss on police officers, pickpocket the dead or fight with police.
The Liverpool fans weren't particularly drunk.
The Liverpool fans weren't a rowdy mob.

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

Not quoting I can live with, but flatviewing, red? Flatviewing?

:verysadanddisappointedface:

[redgunamo]

Not quoting I can live with, but flatviewing, red? Flatviewing?

:verysadanddisappointedface:

Strangely, shamefully, I've always done it. By the time I worked out the difference, it was too late, the cancer was already too far gone.

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

Say it aint so, red.

Surely you can actually teach an old dog new tricks?

[redgunamo]

Say it aint so, red.

Surely you can actually teach an old dog new tricks?

Actually, no. We believe you can't.

Not to the elite standard anyway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_period

[redgunamo]

Given your obvious :flatviewer: tendencies, I'm assuming that was a reply to me ;-)

The inquest jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing. That covers, for instance, gross negligent manslaughter. Negligence can be found in cases where a duty is neglected, which seems to be the clear in this instance. The jury hasn't apportioned blame to any individual (this may come from the CPS later).

While the failings can certainly be seen as a sequence of unfortunate circumstances and events, many of those are the result of actions and decisions (or lack of) that were entirely negligent. Some of those are quite possibly systemic and cultural to the W.Y. Police (which is why the references to the miners strike are valid), others are individual in nature. This wasn't a tragic accident that just happened, this was a disaster created by the actions of the police.

While I generally agree with you that if you want to find out why things happened so you can make sure they don't happen again you need a no-blame outlook, where honest mistakes are admitted, that doesn't equate to Hillsborough being some sort of six of one half a dozen of the other type of incident.

As for mean-spiritedly looking for someone to blame, the WY police have lied from the outset about what happened, withheld evidence from the Taylor report, amended written statements from officers and generally acted like the biggest ****s on the planet to the families of those that were killed. For twenty seven years.

The Liverpool fans didn't force the gate.
The Liverpool fans didn't piss on police officers, pickpocket the dead or fight with police.
The Liverpool fans weren't particularly drunk.
The Liverpool fans weren't a rowdy mob.

There's no good or bad, I think. We didn't like the first answer so we kept asking the question until we got an answer we *did* like. Nothing to do with justice; what we've got is two verdicts (this latest one and the original one, such as it was) that perfectly reflect the light in which football supporters were seen at the time.

As I say, as professionals, we can all understand the fundamental demand to satisfy and communicate the underlying public and political atmosphere of the day. Back then, football fans were scum, perfectly capable of all the horrors of which they were accused. Nowadays, we are pillars of society and English football is global in scope and reach. Both the high and the mighty are desperate to count themselves amongst our number. Lots of money flowing through the game too, which always helps.

Essentially, big business has bought and paid for these latest findings. Are you cool with that?

[Pokster]

There's no good or bad, I think. We didn't like the first answer so we kept asking the question until we got an answer we *did* like. Nothing to do with justice; what we've got is two verdicts (this latest one and the original one, such as it was) that perfectly reflect the light in which football supporters were seen at the time.

As I say, as professionals, we can all understand the fundamental demand to satisfy and communicate the underlying public and political atmosphere of the day. Back then, football fans were scum, perfectly capable of all the horrors of which they were accused. Nowadays, we are pillars of society and English football is global in scope and reach. Both the high and the mighty are desperate to count themselves amongst our number. Lots of money flowing through the game too, which always helps.

Essentially, big business has bought and paid for these latest findings. Are you cool with that?

The main concern i have for your post is that the original verdict was given with all the lies from the S Yorks Police, now they have show to be lies the original verdict wouldn't have happened imo

[redgunamo]

being responsible for the consequences of our own behaviour is *always* the right way to move forward, in my opinion. *That* needs to be the message.

Deeply unfashionable now though.


Aye. We were an army of raucous, beer swilling mischief makers; typical young Brits in fact. Hillsboro' was one of the "slum stadia" Taylor cited in his pivotal report. Ibrox was the precursor years before and we failed collectively to heed the warning.

[redgunamo]

The main concern i have for your post is that the original verdict was given with all the lies from the S Yorks Police, now they have show to be lies the original verdict wouldn't have happened imo

Sure. But they were just "official" lies. Normally you get away with them and eventually people understand. Or they don't; makes no difference really. We just make sure we get better at covering our tracks.

Like WMD in Iraq or whatever; people always believe what they want, what they need to.

[The Jorge]

And the lives they ruin?

I guess that's just the brutality of life's rich pageant

[redgunamo]

And the lives they ruin?

I guess that's just the brutality of life's rich pageant

Indeed. That's the machine for you; it doesn't *do* feelings and it doesn't care about the plight of individuals. Even those working within it.

I'm always baffled you don't get this. But then, you didn't *get* Miami Vice either, did you. And that was the central, fundamental theme of the thing.