Absolutely sickening, but uttelry unsurprising, to read the criticism of Charlie Hebdo’s superb

[Monty91]

editorial about Brussels in which it broaches the last great unspoken truth about Islamic extremism by implicating every practicing Muslim.

[Classic Jorge]

Each and every one of the 1.6bn muslims in the world are to blame, equally?

[Monty91]

Islamism is essentially a concentric circle, with jihadists at the core, then Islamists, then conservative Muslims, and so on.

They are all part of the problem.

[Luis Anaconda]

and Kolo - he hates this lovely face

http://i4.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/article4570896.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/B1oLqpVCYAARTT1.jpg

[Snin]

:-)

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTbSQkUIQAAEIlm.jpg

[Snin]

to my basic philosophy of ban them all and shoot all practising religious people , population problems solved, troubles solved, all countries become nice tourist destinations again so my holidays solved :-) IM BACK KING OF GIBBER .. MO AND GANPATI ..DONT MEESS! :-)

[Luis Anaconda]

[Monty91]

Quite the opposite, in fact. It is entirely logical and reasonable to do so.

But to suggest that Charlie does not satirise all religions, is a lie.

[Classic Jorge]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

"The French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo has sparked anger and condemnation after publishing an editorial that suggests ordinary Muslims contributed to a climate in which the Brussels bombings took place.

The magazine – which itself was the target of a terrorist attack last year – published the editorial, How Did We End Up Here?, eight days after bombs at Brussels’ airport and metro system killed more than 30 people. It said a fear of being seen as Islamophobic had inhibited the public from questioning or objecting to facets of Islam."

Reading further, I can't see any reference at all to 'every Muslim being to blame'. But of course, the use of hyperbole is a fine way of shutting down debate and inhibiting the public from questioning or objecting to facets of Islam.

It would appear that you are part of the problem.

[Monty91]

We're making good headway with the others, but Islam is proving a tougher nut to crack.

[Classic Jorge]

Also, I was asking him to talk me through how it was "implicating every practicing Muslim." so it wasnt me who made that original point.

But everything else you said stands true. Essentially the punctuation.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Monty91]

[Berni]

our governments and the likes of Stop The War are only too keen on the idea that we're reaping what we've sown, but when we apply the same rule to muslims and demand they answer for the actions of their co-religionists, they start squealing.

[redgunamo]

done the honest, statesmanlike thing and run off with all the money they'd made. Something to do with discretion and valour and a' that. Or however a Frenchman would put it, "f**k this for a laugh; Bermuda, ho!"

[Classic Jorge]

I'd hate to think you lacked any sort of self awareness over this sort of thing. At least when you're rounding them up (and you might not be doing the rounding up but you'll be complicit) then you'll have the self awareness to realise that, whilst you had the chance to change and do something different, you ended up perpetuating the same barbarism you profess to despise.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Really?

Have you been off fomenting unrest somewhere, old boy?

[Snin]

religion or no religions

[Monty91]

I've advocated any policies that could be described as fascistic?

Certainly in this thread, all I've suggested is that acknowledging the nature of the problem would be a good start. And yet you jumped from there to essentially saying that this view can only lead to a Holocaust style genocide of Muslim.

That's a seriously, seriously big jump, no?

[Berni]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

['Neg]

:thumbup:

[Snin]

f**kers then he'dhave gone bust anyway

[Classic Jorge]

But is anybody actually saying that the west deserved the comparatively light body count from terrorism or that it was kind of inevitable given the shoddy foreign policy over the last 50-60 years?

I mean, I'll make the point again, if you didnt hear it but Muslims are actually the biggest sufferers from the violence of ISIS et al. I know it's more convenient to ignore it but it remains a fact beyond dispute.

[Monty91]

Defeated by secularism, of course.

We did a pretty good job in this country before we let all the Allans in.

[redgunamo]

[Classic Jorge]

Once you cross that mango rubicon the rest is a relative doddle.

[Snin]

whoever does it...get a real job imo

[Classic Jorge]

[Snin]

attendances and religions are mainly on the downslide...old monty may well be right..islamists are a bit on the up...they could do with a good crusade or two..but then that might start the other religions getting all exicted..its probbly best we play the same apathy game v the towelheads..they will calm down

[Luis Anaconda]

than actually believing in any of that God nonsense

[redgunamo]

[Monty91]

they thought the Hebdo cartoonists should be sent to jail, or at least face some form of punishment.

Am I allowed to implicate them in the problem?

[Snin]

and the little green trouble stiring roman agent

[Snin]

whats wrong with disliking media you find banal or offensive and wanting them shot/arrested or generally hounded ? :-)

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

themselves up in public places populated by kuffrs, la.

All religions are the same, you know.

[Berni]

Them attempting to kill me or other non-muslims near me is. That's how it works.

[Snin]

punishment for driving without insurance or just generally for living .. :-)

[Classic Jorge]

But not only is our country ruled by a monarch, that monarch is the head of a religion and I seriously doubt we could ever be anything resembling a secular - or at least theologically ambivalentor equivocal - country until that changed.

But no, Monty will also blame that on the Muslims too. Because they didnt have the good grace to see we were heading to a secular state sometime after 2050 and abandon their religions when we invaded their countries back in the 1780s, before we partitioned their country along meaningless lines and tempted them back over here to work nightshifts in the factories that served the last death rattles of our dying textile industries.

[redgunamo]

In the original French, at least. Most of the characters were in fact caricatures of well-known contemporary figures.

[Monty91]

You’re like a toddler tugging at his parent's arm and demanding peppa pig while they're trying to have a conversation with another adult.

[Classic Jorge]

You arent stupid enough to believe it when it doesnt fit your agenda so stop wilfully dumming yourself down to believe this **** when it does.

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2015/11/26/1448542955251/03d0f547-078c-415f-b59b-1ad2de3d60bc-428x540.png?w=860&q=20&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&dpr=2&s=5e5668eea4abfeb3a629f72284c07084

[Berni]

than half the country profess some belief in a deity.

I don't believe in this idea that 'secularism' is in and of itself inherently superior to a society with religious underpinnings. I think the tendency to lump all religions together as equally evil is pretty wrongheaded.

I don't care what people believe, I care about how they act. I do not seek to make a window into men's souls, as a wise lady once said.

[Berni]

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

Please god I will have got over this by lunchtime as I fancy a falafel but not sure at this moment I could stomach it.

[redgunamo]

[Monty91]

but lack of belief in a deity is the only guarantee of avoiding it becoming one and must therefore be the aim of every progressive society.

And I have said already that all religions are not equally evil.

[redgunamo]

[Classic Jorge]

You seem to find no moral problem with taking out a whole village of them in an air strike, calling the people who scream for "death to the inidels" as barbaric and evil. Then when the next terrorist atrocity happens over here you call for whatever the turn-em-to-glass de jour is with a straight face.

How's that for moral relativism?

[Berni]

You don't think the Burqa is a Bengali or Pakistani garment, do you? No, it's a Saudi fashion that has caught on and deliberately radicalised what were moderate muslims to such an extent that it has almost become the mainstream.

So I'm afraid this isn't one you can lay at the Raj's door. This has been a choice taken by large groups of muslims in this country.

[Monty91]

But let me ask you, do you believe - instinctively or anecedotely - that many or some moderate Muslims hold values and beliefs about women and freedom of speech that are in conflict with those that we can agree are pillars of contemporary western society?

[Classic Jorge]

I was poking fun at the idea of "all those muslamics, coming over here".

Not only as we'd managed to sujugate their entire continent but also as a great deal of the islamic immigration in this country was people being invited over to prop up failing industry, which subsequently failed anyway.

[redgunamo]

And Arsene Wenger Himself believes in "belief".

Ultimately it's all about how you manage the thing.

[Monty91]

[Berni]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

But that was just a slip.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Classic Jorge]

Quite a lot, but not all, of the first generation ones do though.

The thing is, since the turn of the century I've seen a hardening of positions on both sides with "modern secular" fundamentalists one one side and traditional muslims on the other entrenching further into positions of mutual suspicion and mistrust. You only have to look at the whole Trojan Horse hysteria to see how that actually materialises in real life.

I'm trying to point out just how unhelpful to the whole idea of defeating isis this thing about all muslims being accountable is but I dont seem to be making headway.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

That would just be silly.

[Snin]

living off your wives wages as some kind of house husband..pathetic cnut

[redgunamo]

Remind me to take one with me next time :-|

[Classic Jorge]

That we formed a company specifically to do it?

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Calm yourself, old boy. It's 11 a.m. on a Tuesday. Save some rage for the weekend.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Isn't the sea a bit nippy?

[Berni]

people colonise and oppress other brownpeople. See also, the Ottoman Empire. It's only OK to blame white Western imperialism for stuff.

[Classic Jorge]

Silly f**kers

[Classic Jorge]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/10/13/12/15E0A606000005DC-3270578-Earlier_this_year_David_Cameron_faced_criticism_fo r_fawning_trib-a-18_1444737108231.jpg

[redgunamo]

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

We’re talking about fanatical lunatic mad**** killers.

Religion is often an excuse which people will use to attach to wars and conflict. Sectarianism in Northern Ireland is pinned on religion but in reality it is not really based on the fundamental differences between the two religious ethos, us being good and them being bad.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

You've got yourself confused, now.

[Classic Jorge]

[Berni]

point where you can blame whitey and never goes back any further for its explanations.

Also, your tale of the poor oppressed Indians who were dragged over here to be oppressed further is rather f**ked by the fact that people of Indian Hindu extraction represent one of the most successful immigrant groups ever to have come to this country, while sub-continental muslims are still largely rat poor and ill-educated. This does suggest there's something seriously f**king wrong with their culture that has nothing to do with their 'oppression' by us.

[Monty91]

(which is what I actually said) and actually holding them to account (which is what you prefer to think I said).

All I am actually doing is advocating that we fully acknowledge the nature of the problem, so that we can at least reach a point where we are allowed to say that a moderate, law-abiding Muslim who believes that the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists were wrong to depict Muhammed *is* part of the problem, without being called a bigot.

[Monty91]

[Classic Jorge]

Because that sort of points to being involved in a crime, which then presumably would lead them to at least in some way be worthy of censure.

Taking my devil's advocate/the whole of reasonable society mantle off for just a moment and speaking in a personal sense. Do I think the CH guys should have been able to depict mohammed? Yes. Do I think they should have? No.

Not sure where I stand in your moral spectrum there. Perhaps I've now been implicated and should be judged with all the muslims.

[Classic Jorge]

And I think it also goes to show how we treat people differently based on their worth to us.

These muslims, prolific funders of the worst terror groups, perpetrating a violent war against a neighbouring country using arms we sold them and home to the vast majority of the 911 bombers get trained by our armed forces, sold more weapons and bunged more bribes.

We dont know what we're arguing for or against here.

[Berni]

The alternative, of course, would be for us to undertake regime change. I - personally - would prefer that and from your attitude must assume that you would too.

However, I do wonder how the muslim world would react to GIs and squarddies trampling all over the holiest sites in Islam. http://www.awimb.com/images/smiley_icons/ohwell.gif

[Monty91]

idea why you would even bring it up.

Can you explain why you did?

[Classic Jorge]

:gtsb:?

[Monty91]

policy to be unimpeachable, which you are not.

[Berni]

The West is essentially fighting defensive wars against radical Islam, whereas radical Islam explicitly seeks to defeat and subjugate the West.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Classic Jorge]

I was just pointing out the logical inconsistencies at play here, not to mention the ethical ones.

[Berni]

Because we do need to deal with them one way or another. And your hand-wringing about them is only valid if you have a realistic alternative strategy.

[Berni]

http://www.awimb.com/fudforum/index.php?t=tree&th=593082 &mid=4101683&rid=22&S=d91c346718015ba2e228b44fbf 294d9c&rev=&reveal= (http://www.awimb.com/fudforum/index.php?t=tree&th=593082&mid=4101683&rid=22&S=d91c346718015ba2e228b44fbf294d9c&rev=&reveal=)

[Classic Jorge]

I mean, to the untrained eye, it could look like the west has actually been on the offensive, being as it has been literally invading muslim countries for the majority of this century.

That's before we take into account the death tolls on either side.

[Classic Jorge]

http://www.awimb.com/fudforum/index.php?t=tree&th=593082 &mid=4101665&rid=293&S=136ac7bd3606eb7aa3c5dec7d 1cbb3ca&rev=&reveal= (http://www.awimb.com/fudforum/index.php?t=tree&th=593082&mid=4101665&rid=293&S=136ac7bd3606eb7aa3c5dec7d1cbb3ca&rev=&reveal=)

[Classic Jorge]

[Berni]

west and bring the whole world into the Umma. They make no f**king bones about that and you can hear them spout it anytime they open their mouths. They demonstrated their seriousness about this intention by flying planes into the Twin Towers, remember?

Given which, what would you have suggested that the US and the West did about it? Sat down and chatted with them?

[Monty91]

I guess to dig deeper we'd need to know your reasoning for considering it wrong, and seeing if the parallels between you and moderate muslims who also believe it to be wrong survive this extra scrutiny.

[Monty91]

Explicitly religious. Important to remember that.

[Berni]

Pakistanis who had somehow been forced into radicalism and away from secularism by the evil British Empire or something. It was pointing out that these people had chosen very deliberately to espouse an explicitly regressive, anti-western form of Islam right off their own bats. It was nothing to do with Saudi Arabia or how we ought to deal with it.

[Classic Jorge]

But no, we were there to "liberate" them, werent we? :hehe:

[Classic Jorge]

Even if it's then followed by a profoundly hamfisted attempt to stuff words into my mouth.

[Berni]

terror' was perpetrated by radical Islam against the west and not the other way around?

And how is attempting to defeat the authors of such an attack in order to prevent them doing it again not a defensive measure?

[Classic Jorge]

[Berni]

[Berni]

[Classic Jorge]

And, if they were trying to defeat the perpetrators would they not have been better served by attacking the country a VAST majority of the attackers originated from?

If they were even trying to look like it was a defensive move they wouldnt have invaded Iraq 18 months later either.

[Classic Jorge]

Why get more into bed with them rather than attempt to divest ourselves from them?

[Berni]

That seems reasonable to me. I would have liked an invasion of Saudi, too, but like I say - there are some fairly significant problems there - like Mecca, for instance.

[Berni]

We have to do business with them anyway (all the oil, remember), so we might as well milk them for everything we can.

[Classic Jorge]

I dont think they should have invaded saud but, by yours and their logic, they should.

[Classic Jorge]

I'll see you on the next march, brother.

[Berni]

cause of all this (a position with which I agree), but don't actually want to do anything about it? That makes no sense. It seems you just want to wag an admonitory finger at our relationship with Saudi, but don't want us to do the one thing that would change it.

Oh, and they very much did go into Tora Bora, btw. They fought a massive campaign there, in fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tora_Bora

[Berni]

stuff and the difficulties it creates in international diplomacy is not exactly an anti-war position.

[Classic Jorge]

I'm aware they fought the massive campaign there but crucially they allowed Bin Laden to escape.

[Classic Jorge]

[Berni]

counterpart by more than a thousand years. However, I realise that's not a popular view on the left, since it involves laying the blame at the door of Islam and its adherents, which is forbidden.

[Berni]

spilling blood for in a geopolitical context and I've mocked people who think we invaded Iraq to secure oil, which is demonstrable nonsense.

[Classic Jorge]

Anything to keep the judeo-christian hands clean, eh?

Sure, point to the Ottomans or the shortlived Arab Nationalists if you like but it's hardly a convincing argument.

We should probably leave it here though. As usual, we're the last two standing/bothered.

[Berni]

ignore the fact that it's absolutely fundamental (as it were) to modern radical Islam.

[Classic Jorge]

We beatify and lionise warriors in an equally distasteful way, distasteful to me anyway.

[Berni]

subjugate the rest of the world 'by the sword' as part of our religious duty.

All successful military societies lionise warriors. It's only loser countries that don't.

[Classic Jorge]

apart from that they both seem to have the same goals