Jorge – I wasn’t suggesting blanket checks for everyone who looks like an Allan. I was suggesting

[Monty91]

more checks for them than other groups. Also, your argument that there's no need for profiling because no-one has smuggled a bomb on a plane for years is too fatuous for words.

Here's a hypothetical scenario I read recently.

Imagine that you work for airline security and are executing a hand search of a traveler’s bag. He’s a young man in his twenties and seems nervous. You notice that he’s carrying a hardcover copy of The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. You pick up the book and ask him if he likes it. He now appears even more nervous than before. You notice something odd about the book—the dust jacket doesn’t seem to fit. You remove it and find a different book underneath. How do you feel about this traveler’s demeanor, and the likelihood of his being a terrorist, if the book is:

A. The Qur’an (in Arabic)
B. The Magic Mushroom Grower’s Guide
C. Overcoming Impotence: A Leading Urologist Tells You Everything You Need to Know
D. Dianetics

If you care more about A than B, C, or D, as you should, you are guilty of religious profiling :shrug:

[Luis Anaconda]

[Classic Jorge]

It's rigorous to the point of it being debatable that, were a terrorist to get onto a plane, he'd be pretty limited in what he could do, short of opening a door or kicking out a window. I dont understand how this argument could be fatuous, it seems pretty germane to me.

This whole book business seems like a bizarre argument, especially since it'd be clear he was reading something in arabic when he was reading in a different direction.

And the eagle eyed among you will have noticed I gendered a terrorist in the first paragraph, thus profiling myself. Spotters badge for you.

[Monty91]

not to focus the majority of our attention on the very specific group that contains the very specific people who, as we know, would dearly love to slip through the security net and are almost certainly plotting new and original ways to do so.

You still seem incapable of explaining what the upside would be to doing so?

And I repeat, I'm not just talking airport security.

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

Hard to believe.

[Classic Jorge]

It's just that after that you just keep talking about airports.

The thing that makes me so confident is the empirical evidence. I'm totally fine if you think we should do something else but if you want to try and convince me about your point of view you will have to do better than overheard hypotheticals and paranoia.

[Monty91]

At Israeli airports they openly use racial profiling and have been even better than "pretty successful" at avoiding terrorist incident since 1976.

http://www.haaretz.com/in-israel-racial-profiling-doesn-t-wa rrant-debate-or-apologies-1.261075 (http://www.haaretz.com/in-israel-racial-profiling-doesn-t-warrant-debate-or-apologies-1.261075)

Presumably you object to this policy and consider it symptomatic of Israel's irrational "paranoia"?

[Luis Anaconda]

Israel has had a few problems elsewhere with terrorists. We know that because they frequently bomb the **** our of their neighbours when it happens

[Monty91]

[Classic Jorge]

I think israel, with all the atrocities they've committed and continue to commit are probably right to be this paranoid.

I wouldnt expect anything less from them.

[Pokster]

than any other ethnical background?

[Luis Anaconda]

my lounge as I had painted it a different colour would be kind of irrelevant. I can't make it any clearer than that

[Ashberto]

keeping an eye on little old ladies from Whitstable as they do on mulsim men in their 20s with a criminal background and a known habit of hanging around radical preachers and radical websites?

[Monty91]

Yep, you’re definitely not being deliberately obtuse here :nod:

[Monty91]

but that it is it this, not the policy you state, that is the problem.

[Classic Jorge]

Surely you would admit that you'd rather wander down Ramallah high street in an england kit than an israel won.

Look, I understand the need for security. I get it. I just dont get what good profiling young muslim blokes in airports (please god, yaweh, allan give me another example) will do when the best they can do is improvise an explosive device from overpriced Hai Karate.

[Luis Anaconda]

it's the ones in Bolton you want to watch out for

[Pokster]

but their reasoning is that a higher % of black people commit crime.

When the city of London built their exclusion zone afer the bombings they strangely enough stopped far more mercs and BMW drivers (black) than the vans they were supposed to be stopping.

[Monty91]

policy is correct in the circumstances?

And if so, are you able to quantify what level of risk we would need to face for you to endorse profiling in the UK?

[2 Strikers?]

clearly isn't enough for you.

Would having them registered and made to wear clear, distinct badges, say a simbol of their faith, make you feel better?

Or perhaps making them all live in a single guarded area of the cities would help you sleep better at night?

I'm sure someone somewhere could come up with a final solution to ease your troubled mind and action it on your behalf.

[Classic Jorge]

But we're supposed to be an enlightened, modern, western democracy.

Using Israel as an example of good practice in this instance would be like your Childminder being commended by Michael Jackson.

[redgunamo]

[Monty91]

include a "yes" or "no" somewhere in your answer, that would be appreciated.

[Classic Jorge]

But, y'know, you have to apparently slavishly follow america's lead and run blindly into foolish unjustified wars that create and arm terrorists and stuff.

But I love Americans and I dont think we should stop them from coming to the UK to learn about stuff like cheese and how to spell things.

[Monty91]

increasing the threat. Any reason for the sudden shift?

Also, can you clarify what you mean by increasing the threat? Do you think that by imposing more checks on Allans, this will make more of them want to kill us?

I agree this is a legitimate concern, since we know that the Allans can be sensitive types - even many of the affluent, western educated ones who haven't endured years of imperial brutality but consider such trivialities as depictions of Muhammad as being justification for murder.

But are you sure it is prudent to indulge such a disproportionate response to what is essentially our security forces being as efficient as they can be with the time and resources available to them?

[Monty91]

adding another layer of security - profiling - add to the threat?

Surely the existing security measures, which you believe to be virtually fail-safe, would be enough to nullify any additional threat created by profiling?

[eastgermanautos]

[Classic Jorge]

I would prefer us to exist convivially with other countries, as opposed to invading them, filling them full of armaments and greviances and then f**king off to leave them with real terrorists - you know, as opposed to the imaginary ones we used as a pretext for the invasion.

That we dont have to good grace to accept refugees from those countries just makes us look bigger arseholes.

Call me a wild eyed, romantic optimist but I firmly believe the best defence against terrorism is not behaving in a way which provokes it in the first place.

[Classic Jorge]

And again, I was never advocating profiling

[Monty91]

principle that you think we’ve brought on the problem of people wanting to kill us through our own actions.

And this is why you’re unable to say that you would endorse profiling irrespective of the level of threat we face. Because, essentially, we deserve to face said threat.

Fair summary?

[Monty91]

this would offset the negative side to profiling (which you seem to say is that it would make more people want to kill us) while also acting as an effective way of targeting the people we know want to kill us?

Can you answer this very direct question?

[Classic Jorge]

The current security measures, however annoying they are, are 100% effective.

Just the logistics of effective profiling, as witnessed by the 13 year farce and 1bn project overrun of the UK's epassports farce, will tell you that it's neither practical or efficient.

[Classic Jorge]

profiling is very, very pointless

[Luis Anaconda]

Not that j needs help in the matter but your debating style here is akin to a six-form politics student doing a rather poor impression of Jeremy Paxman. May one suggest you need another hobby?

[Monty91]

[Ashberto]

You know, like that other 'pariah' state that lost more lives per capita as Britain's ally in WW1 than any other country in the world, and heavily again in WW2 - and then got stabbed in the back? Do you know how many terror attacks there have been in the USA from Bosnian Muslims and Albanians? Loads, even though they are not reported as such? How many from Serbians? None, I think you'll find.

And all the Central American countries that the US f**ked around with and sent terrorists into and ran death squads? Where are all the Nicaraguan and El Salvadorian terrorists running around seeking 'revenge' and 'justice'?

Nope. It's just the Allans, I think you'll find. Also, they want to destroy western civilsation and set up a barbarian state - as you might have noticed. Luckily for them they've got people making excuses for them, eh.

[Monty91]

further threat :shrug:

[Luis Anaconda]

Just because people are bombing us doesn't mean they don't want to - just that they can't afford it

[Classic Jorge]

It's not just ideological, we've been trying to work out a way to do it for 13 years, it has cost billions and it doesnt work.

I get that you are trying to paint me as some sort of wooly minded, lily livered liberal prepared to play fast and loose with our safety. Feel free to.

It's just it doesnt stand up to that much scrutiny when I've presented you with facts, empirical evidence, numbers and a real-world, actually-happening-now scenarios of why it's thoroughly impractical to the point of being folly.

[Classic Jorge]

I was saying we created this level of threat

[Classic Jorge]

I could go on.

[redgunamo]

[Monty91]

you show you believe it can be practical and beneficial?

If there, then why not here?

[Classic Jorge]

I dont think it could be either practical, benificial or ethical in our case though.

I didnt endorse anything they do, and neither will I ever. I see where the confusion lies now. You were like a dog with two dicks over what you thought was me endorsing their approach when all I said was it was understandable in their case.

[redgunamo]

profilers need to earn a living too.

Also, its good for the soul.

[Monty91]

[Classic Jorge]

...and the fact that their government can clearly locate its arse with either hand.

There's probably more but surely that's enough.

[redgunamo]

[Monty91]

It can simply be placing greater scrutiny on the nervous chap concealing the Koran as per my example. Yet you would not even endorse profiling in this hypothetical scernario, even though it would cost nothing and would be more efficient than the alternative (profiling everyone equally).

As for other examples, do you think we should be focussing on mosques more than churches or synagogues or any other religious institutions as part of our anti-terrorism measures?

[Luis Anaconda]

[Classic Jorge]

With heathrow, gatwick, manchester and stanstead I think anything we do in terms of profiling will have to be large scale. We've got ten times the population of israel and people actually want to come here that arent jewish.

I dont really think we should be focussing on any religious places of worship as freedom to worship - or to not - is as important a right as free association, speech and movement.

Now tell me, have I now given you enough rope to hang me as a dangerously mental, thoroughly impractical corbynista nutjob?

PS this whole business does make you sound at best a bit mohammedberto. And at worst a big old racialist.

[Classic Jorge]

[Luis Anaconda]

[redgunamo]

[Classic Jorge]

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-08/7/18/enhanced/webdr06/anigif_enhanced-8685-1407452228-4.gif

[Monty91]

(because of my appearance)

[Monty91]

[Classic Jorge]

Seriously though, you *can* see that my objections to this arent just ethical though, cant you?

[redgunamo]

Anyway:

http://www.awimb.com/fudforum/index.php?t=tree&th=591116 &mid=4083763&rid=345&S=9b64e8cbe24f4adf57e6afb96 6b05a00&rev=&reveal= (http://www.awimb.com/fudforum/index.php?t=tree&th=591116&mid=4083763&rid=345&S=9b64e8cbe24f4adf57e6afb966b05a00&rev=&reveal=)

[Classic Jorge]

[redgunamo]