Any chance of Messi red card in 1st 10 minutes, then Neymar and Suarez running into each other and

[PSRB]

injuring themselves so they miss the 2nd leg as well?

I'm confident we'll score......just not very confident that we won't concede 3 or 4

[The Tony]

Might cripple them with laughter.

In all serious..really hope we can win well.....so well that if we get a last minute penalty we can Cruyff them.

[Ashberto]

knife-through-the-heart feeling. At least it probably won't be the goalie this time.

[Peter]

[Classic Jorge]

:cry: I'm still angry about that

[Classic Jorge]

Also, what way are you voting on yerp?

Are you with Boris and Galloway or with Dave and Gideon?

[PSRB]

and have about 15 players out











yes, yes we'll lose

[Bergkamp's Brain]

[Berni]

We aren't going to win the CL. We might win the league. It's simple, really.

[Classic Jorge]

Basically the table doesnt lie but the pyramid is fond of the odd porky once in a while.

[Ashberto]

like this? Even if our chances over two legs are realistically not very high, and we all expect to go out, if we can't nurture a single spark of joyous, child-like hope then what is the point of it all?

When all the players say they want CL football it presumably means they want to play against the best players and the best teams. That means matches like tonight.

[Ashberto]

[Peter]

The players who want to play in it simply mean they want to be paid cl wages.

We havent been competititve in this competition for at least 7 years. Its boring.

[Berni]

100-1 shots have been known to come in.

Besides, Tottenham could win the league if we don't. That alone makes it more important.

[Berni]

club and the ability to attract players. From a footballing perspective, it's a bore.

[Classic Jorge]

[Classic Jorge]

[Jake]

It's very un-boring, imo.

[Peter]

Had a whole message written out but it has collapsed three times.

f**k this ****.

[Berni]

It's always the same. So much so that the games have all blended into each other in my mind.

[Classic Jorge]

[Classic Jorge]

[Berni]

That is awful, isn't it? :-(

[Peter]

The EU i mean

[PSRB]

putting out one of those 1 in a thousand performances where everything clicks

Inter Milan 1 - Arsenal 5 springs to mind.....or was that our 1 in a thousand match :rubchin:

[Berni]

are prepared to have one.

It is, dare I say it, a bit of a copout.

[Classic Jorge]

Obviously it's Fritz, Paolo, Juan and Jean-Michel's fault though. In no way is it to do with our pisspoor PM's attempts to stop his party of corporate lickspittles and free market fundamentalists fracturing, thus forfeiting all of the lovely privatisation loot.

[Berni]

[Classic Jorge]

Though I agree on the spurs point, mind. Especially now bueno's lot have dumped them out of the cup.

[Berni]

[PSRB]

[Berni]

[Classic Jorge]

[Jake]

It's fun to watch the best player/team in the world and try to win.

I agree the Bayern games are dull.

[Ashberto]

defined, each clear and distinct in the memory?

[Ashberto]

Scoring goals, winning matches - these are the existential moments of joy which are the reasons for being a fan. Of course we hope to win tournaments, but as I said to Monty recently, what is the point of existence of the other 86 clubs in the league who can never hope to win it. What if they, and all their fans diappeared?

[PSRB]

[Classic Jorge]

[Ashberto]

the FA Cup.

[Berni]

Petit effort is far more vivid to me than any of our games against Bayern Munich, for instance.

[Classic Jorge]

[Ashberto]

which went towards sparing us the indignity of having to play on thursdays.

[Berni]

Our CL games are just an exercise in slamming our heads against a brick wall for me now, whereas at least our Prem games feel like they actually have some innate worth.

[Classic Jorge]

http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/05/bull****-bull****-reaction-gif.gif?gs=a

[Classic Jorge]

[Peter]

But have not the slightest steer as to the terms of withdrawal. That is a rigged vote, particularly when cameron goes on to refer to withdrawal as a 'leap in the dark'

Well, yeah, if you refuse to discuss it of course it is.

I will probably vote to stay largely because the argument over sovreignity is bull****. This is a referendum on foreigners and i like them :-)

[Berni]

should remember more clearly a game that forms part of a successful narrative than one that was merely another temporary distraction on the road to petering out?

[Ashberto]

As the moments go, all the Barcelona games have distinct memories, and most of the Bayern ones. I expect more sobriety is required for longer highlight-reels in memory than I can usually muster. And watching football sober is a bit wierd anyway imo.

[Berni]

Seems to me it's a referendum on whether or not you actually give a **** about how you're governed.

[Classic Jorge]

[Peter]

For most people this is about foreigners and you know it.

Anyway, i will probably vote to stay in, i just want a fair fight. British values, b...you cant pick and choose when to use them

[Ashberto]

Casting Leavers as jingoists is lazy and prejudiced. Even if some of them are.

[Classic Jorge]

I make him right on this, it is a referendum on foreigners and whether you're comfortable living with them or being governed by them.

[Ashberto]

affecting the lives of ALL Europeans (not just people in this country) and if people don't like it they have no chance of voting them out.

Of course, just shouting 'racist' at someone is easier than taking on the arguments.

[eastgermanautos]

[Berni]

When the people of the United Kingdom vote for a government, that democratic mandate should be sovereign. It is not and that strikes me as utterly unacceptable.

How you vote is up to you, but chucking the cheap slur of xenophobia around to belittle those who think otherwise is bull****.

[Ashberto]

Down with that sort of thing.

Yeah, SOME people are jingoistic, and you use that as an excuse to shut down ALL debate about democracy, perhaps because that leaves you uncomfortably exposed on your support for a rulling class with as much legitimacy as the f**king monarchy and aristocracy.

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

For fans it really comes down to 1-2 games a season.

When the Champions League becomes even remotely interesting we tend to exit. I was chatting with some like minded chums just last evening and between us we could not even recall who was in our group this year.

[Berni]

real questions and can just snigger about how Nigel Farage looks funny or Michael Gove looks like Pob instead.

Yours is the narrow-minded position here. The 'Leave' camp is a broad political church with good points and the 'Remain' crowd would rather sneer than address them. That isn't a good look.

[Ashberto]

http://blog.acton.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/What-have-the-Romans-ever-done-for-us.png

[Ashberto]

Good Lord!

[Classic Jorge]

Also, and I believe I may have bored you with this before, but I believe in real, proper, democracy but it has to start in this country first.

We need a constitution, a bill of rights and we actually need to be proper, bona fide citizens. Giving up membership in the Eu will leave us with less fundamental, inalienable rights and as far as I'm concerned that does not equal greater democracy.

Leaving will only strenthen the aristocracy - both old money and new - and the monarchy's hold over us as subjects rather than citizens.

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

And I include myself in that.

I did remember Bayern but this was after a while and when I said it the conversation had moved on to chicks.

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

I personally think it has been massively devalued by allowing so many entrants into it.

[Classic Jorge]

The leave camp arent some bright, forward thinking band of happy revolutionaries they're a largely staid, conservative and antediluvian - in both senses of the word - rabble.

[Berni]

to more and more undemocratic, unelected and unaccountable government from abroad?

You may have to talk me through that one, I'm afraid. :hehe:

[Classic Jorge]

but I do struggle to see how you could call yourself a football fan and be more interested in playing derby than bayern munich

[Rich]

[Peter]

I didn't utter the word racist order xenophobic and to suggest some is beneath you.

All I asked for was a fair vote on clear terms.

Cam the f**k down you racist **** :-)

[Classic Jorge]

And, by spreading power, you're much better off than you would be by consolidating it in one place. With another government, another ruling class, I might disagree but not with this lot.

And we elect MEPs too y'know

[Ashberto]

For now I'll just point out that every progressive leap from the Chartists to the Suffragettes has been made by taking power away from unelected elites, not by hoping that those elites, in their paternal wisdom, will bestow us 'rights' that we can't fight for ourselves.

[Berni]

referendum, not an election. There are no party lines here.

Ash and I probably disagree on far more politically than we would ever agree on, but we've arrived at the same conclusion on this issue. And yet you seem determined to see those who vote 'Leave' as some homogenous group united by their hatred of foreigners. Why?

What is it that scares you so much about the real arguments for leaving that you have to personify them in such a way that you can pour scorn on individuals rather than address the issues?

[Classic Jorge]

I think it comes down to the fact I trust the euros more than I trust the people in power in this country.

[Ashberto]

In the so-called good-old days you could get to the final only playing very weak teams - champions of Moldova and so on. The UEFA Cup was the harder one to win, as it was more like the current CL in terms of overall quality.

[Classic Jorge]

Referendums are ultimately all about the individuals, the ones who will vote, and to say there isnt a regressive, nimbyistic, parochial element to the leave campaign is plain wrong.

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

It is why people still turn automatically to MOTD despite it being a poor football program.

I still find domestic football, especially the League, the most compelling event to watch Arsenal involved in, so much of the Champions League I find excruciatingly boring.

Perhaps my view had been tainted by television as I fondly recall such games from days in London, the brilliant Deportivo side, the brilliant Kiev side etc.

I must say I do enjoy the knock-out stages as obviously the quality uplift is obvious, last week’s PSG v Chelsea was great viewing. I even watched Roma v Madrid the next evening, wondering indeed if you were present which I assume not.

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

[Berni]

your beliefs? You have stated that the unelected EU has effected more change than any stupid old elected government would have made with their silly old democratic mandates from the people who are too stupid to know what's best for them.

Your argument is substantively no different to 'at least they make sure the trains run on time'. In other words, it is narrow, self-interested and profoundly undemocratic.

You are not interested in democracy, I'm afraid.

As for MEPs, no vote anyone in this country ever casts for an MEP will ever change the policy or direction of Europe and everyone knows it. The European Parliament is a Babel of so many diverse voices that it is effectively unable to achieve anything other than to ensure nothing changes. In addition, it cannot initiate legislation, which means it can never do anything more significant than attempt to delay or block the will of the wholly unelected Commission - something it is ill-equipped to do due to its lack of part cohesion or discipline.

[PSRB]

there were many re runs of the season and have been ever since, so you're more likely to see those matches on multiple occasions whereas our CL seasons we've probably only watched once

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

[Classic Jorge]

I want a democratic europe just like I want a more democratic, federal UK.

You admittedly hate democracy, you've stated your distain for the demos on far too many occasions to pretend anything else, surely.

[Berni]

[Berni]

I believe it to be about the only way of governing a country while not brutalising its people.

My supposed disdain for it is largely played for laughs.

And I am a million miles from being a patrician tory - both socially and intellectually.

[Jake]

[Classic Jorge]

You cant surely claim to be a one nation tory, can you?

[Peter]

For some of you I am sure there is a concern regarding democracy and sovereignty. Unfortunately if you campaign on that you lose heavily.

If you want to win you need to pay the immigration card and you known it. So bleat on all you like about what this referendum is about for you -it won't change the fact that for the vast majority of people it isn't a bout that at all.

It's about foreigners. See, I didn't call you racist did I.

[eastgermanautos]

http://www.amazon.com/Money-Suicide-Note-Penguin-Ink/dp/0143 116959 (http://www.amazon.com/Money-Suicide-Note-Penguin-Ink/dp/0143116959)

great book btw.