That Trump programme on C4 last night was revealling

[Classic Jorge]

I'm not sure what's scarier, the disciples or the man himself.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZr1YpnWcAE2Q3r.jpg

[Berni]

The only difference being that Trump actually has a chance of getting elected.

[Ashberto]

[Classic Jorge]

Whatever your view on Corbyn's politics you surely have to admit they're grounded in reason and he at least has some idea of policy. He's also a decent, caring and compassionate man who clearly believes in something.

Trump just appeals to people's stupidity, which admittedly is a big market, and their baser instincts of fear and xenophobia, aslo a big market.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Banning Muslim immigration?
Something to do with hair?

[Brentwood]

[71 Guns - channeling the spirit of Mr Hat]

[Ashberto]

[Luis Anaconda]

[Classic Jorge]

[Luis Anaconda]

Come on now - who hasn't got the image of Diane and the Trumpster going at it in their head now?

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Classic Jorge]

Back in 5

[IUFG]

[Monty91]

right wing commentator he interviewed was that arch-controversialist female American journalist tells you everything you need to know about the programme’s intentions.

A hatchet job was the easy option. Pathetic.

[Classic Jorge]

But dont let that get in your way.

[Ashberto]

What people missed about the South Park DTKRJRBS is that it also pokes fun at the middle classes who sneer at the workers because THEIR more highly skilled jobs are safe. At first. Then they start losing their jobs too and the boot is on the other foot.

[Monty91]

Trump is actually a creation of the left.

Of course, that would have been a far more challenging programme to make, so they went for the easy option which was informing us that his supporters are almost exclusively thick red-necks who feel marginalised – which we all knew already.

[Berni]

politics.

Equally, the reactions to them by their opponents have been almost identical - disbelief, ridicule, fear and apocalyptic predictions of what would happen if they actually got into power.

[Classic Jorge]

Do you really think 'the left' is so powerful and dominant that it can create bogeymen for itself?

You're aware that the US hasnt elected anybody even vaguely left-ish since Truman, surely.

Actually, I think the most interesting thing said in the whole presidential race up to this point was something said by Bernie Sanders a couple of days back. It also summed up just who holds the power in the US, and it isnt the left.

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/101534621243869 39/ (https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10153462124386939/)

[Classic Jorge]

I do seem to remember it being a meme you were very fond of too at the time though.

[Monty91]

he is an *intentional* creation of the left. Quite the opposite

I certainly think there's some truth in that the left's attitude to immigration and, most recently, the refugee crisis, has made formerly unsayable things sayable. Trump's comments about Allans being the obvious example.

[Ashberto]

[Classic Jorge]

...attitudes towards minorities. It's certainly not equally or moreso the fault of the right who have benefitted from immigrants providing them with cheap building labour (Trump's towers built largely with imported, non unionised labour), or housekeepers or generally keeping the price of indigenous labour lower as a result of the high immigration.

No, it's definitely the fault of the people who have much, much less power. It's all those nasty do gooders' fault, all of it.

[Classic Jorge]

Also, are they xenos to me because they are american or is it because they're uneducated?

[Monty91]

also think the immigration policies of the past 10-20 years have been wrong and dangerous.

[redgunamo]

benefit most from these things, while renouncing their own responsibility for promoting them and blaming Trump fans instead.

[Monty91]

exposed Trump’s hypocrisy because some of the clothes he sells are made in China and Bangladesh.

No less stupid than those who claim that people who have a problem with capitalism are hypocrites for getting coffee in Starbucks.

[Ashberto]

For a view on Trump you won't read very often:

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2016/01/24/nationalism-an d-its-discontents-the-meaning-of-trump/ (http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2016/01/24/nationalism-and-its-discontents-the-meaning-of-trump/)

[Ashberto]

Same applies over here. I've defended UKIP voters, for example, some of whom are of a similar ilk.

[Monty91]

[Classic Jorge]

...fit the caricature some have of me on here.

I think you need to ask yourself, not on this but as a general rule in life, who exactly benefits here? I also think it's pretty fair to say that London and the south east has benefitted much more than the north has from immigration over the last 20 years.

The key thing is though, that immigration policy has not been a left wing one, if anything it's been much more influenced by, and down to, the right.

[Classic Jorge]

America's middle class is widely recognised to have been squeezed over the course of the last 10-20 years, ours perhaps less so, and the people that are actually benefitting from this are the rich. Though they've managed to carve their own niche out where they benefit no matter what the market movement, effectively hedging their own position.

[redgunamo]

[Monty91]

as being not far to the right of the socialist worker's party.

But that is because they have been pushed that way, when it comes to immigration at least, by changing societal attitudes.

Until now. Now we see the backlash. :popcorn: http://www.awimb.com/images/smiley_icons/ohwell.gif

[Classic Jorge]

[Classic Jorge]

They're doing their best by deploying lyntonesque dog whistle tactics like criticising muslim women for not speaking english whilst cutting millions off of all sorts of support centres, or claiming "swarms" of immigrants are poised to overrun us all. That at least keeps some of the bigots voting for them.

I do find it weird you're claiming to enjoy it though, being as you are quite intricately interconnected to this crumbling multicultural utopia.

[redgunamo]

What's the difference?

[Classic Jorge]

It also benefits from a massive inbalance in infrastricture spend disparity, something like 1/5, between it and other parts of the country.

[Monty91]

moments for me recently was when I saw footage of an Allan woman being removed from a Trump rally. Another spectator stood up and gave her a big thumbs-down as she was escorted out.

What saddened me was that you can no longer say with absolute certainty that the man who gave her the thumbs-down is a racist. As I said before, what was once unsayable is now sayable, and I personally think that lays squarely with the left.

[redgunamo]

[Classic Jorge]

We had all these dreams and ambitions and then someone came and parked their solid gold tanks on our lawn and started firing petrodollars at us, at almost the worst time possible.

[Classic Jorge]

Especially given the absolute, utter powerlessness of the left in this country for the best part of 40 years. Even when we did have a labour government it was, if anything, right of centre. The only vaguely left wing policies it displayed were spending on infrastructure, which wasnt very left wing at all as it enriched shareholders in privatised companies.

OK, perhaps their social spending was a bit left but if you were to actually look at what we're spending now it's not massively different from what went before. It's just that they're paying more companies, as opposed to government bodies, to deliver a worse, more vindictive service.

[redgunamo]

Most embarrassing.

Bad timing is right.

[Classic Jorge]

and the enduring value of *money*

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

This may include new Range Rovers for the memsahib, thus granting peace and harmony to the life of the man.

Important stuff, I think you'll agree.

[Monty91]

policy-making to the extent that those policies are now no longer thought of as leftist. So I do not agree that the left has been utterly powerlessness for forty years. I think they have won big victories in terms of societal attitudes - and continue to do so - and that these have directly influenced policy.

[Classic Jorge]

This is always a struggle with the right.

Free markets = good v Free people = bad.

[redgunamo]

I blame the welfare state. It makes people mean and selfish and nasty. And smelly too.

[redgunamo]

To me, that's what people with money tell those without it, in order to keep them from wanting to steal theirs.

Did I ever mention that my father was .. blah blah blah .. yawn.

[redgunamo]

After all, immigration isn't a problem when redgunamos do it in Henley, so why would the rich care.

[redgunamo]

Phew!

[Classic Jorge]

They're the reverse of the hedging thing, you see, they lose out no matter what the market movements are.

[Ashberto]

Footy, booze, rock'n roll etc. Melting pot stuff which has been the basis of successful immigration through history.

Multiculturalism is the opposite of that. It seeks to divide by celebrating difference, and we end up with Alan birds dressed as letterboxes and not speaking any English. Apparently. I'll take Dave's word on the latter.

So immigration + melting pot ok. immigration + multiculturalism not so ok.

There's the taking our jerbs bit too, of course. Did I mention that they took my jerb? It's ok. I eventually got another one.

[Classic Jorge]

I mean, the big massive, devisive wedges dont help but they only really have an effect if you dont know anybody and just assume they're after your jerb/woman/money or just hate your freedom.

[redgunamo]

It's the other way around when you go to Benidorm on holiday; then, you're paying *them* but its fine because their foreign-ness is what you want, what you're there for.

[Classic Jorge]

I think one of the fundamental misunderstandings you have here is that where I grew up was in any way not foreign. Aside from the drizzle and passive agressive tutting it was almost totally foreign.

[redgunamo]

Even my own house is foreign to me. It's full of foreigners and foreign-ness. I am merely a lone, brave freedom fighter holding out against the invaders with nothing but his hounds, his hunting rifles and his Richard Briers CDs to keep him company in his private enclave.

Perhaps "foreign" is a fact of human existence, rather than a "thing". Maybe it's an issue that doesn't actually exist.

[redgunamo]

[Classic Jorge]

Which is also why, quite frankly, englishness gives me the fear

[Ashberto]

Maybe you are more English than you think. ;-)

[redgunamo]

Maybe you imagine it puts foreigners off?

glwtp. Much of the world simply wants to be British. (American too nowadays, of course). The thing is though, caring overmuch about such things is distinctly *un* English.

[Classic Jorge]

[Luis Anaconda]

two ... Three very English qualities