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View Full Version : Reading Sam Harris on gun control, it is a bit stupid how people



Monty91
01-06-2016, 11:23 AM
get all hot and bothered about gun deaths, when we could save tens of thousands of lives by reducing the speed limit, yet choose not to because driving fast is fun and convenient.

"It now seems to me that there are two ways of approaching this discussion that may, in fact, be irreconcilable. The first is to consider the ethical and practical case for guns as a means of self-defense. To make this case—or even to understand it—one must know something about how human violence evolves at close quarters, and one must care about specific examples (e.g. a young mother shoots a knife-wielding intruder). Here, it is easy to establish (and impossible to deny) that guns occasionally save the lives of good people who have every right to defend themselves and their families from malevolent lunatics. The second approach is to consider society as a whole, emphasizing the statistics on gun violence. Here, it is easy to establish (and impossible to deny) that in countries where nearly everyone has a gun, violence tends to be more lethal, and suicides and gun accidents more common.

Many people seem to think that the broader statistical case trumps the ethical case for self-defense. More guns = more murders and suicides. End of argument. From this point of view, anyone arguing for the primacy of self-defense appears to be standing in the way of societal progress. Consequently, many people believe that no civilian, no matter how responsible or vulnerable to violence, should be able to possess a weapon as powerful as gun—because any society that would make guns available to such people will, of necessity, be unable to control the sale of guns to dangerous, negligent, and suicidal people who shouldn’t have them.

I do not accept that argument. I believe that the ethics of self-defense trumps the statistical case, for several reasons. First, we simply do not know what the statistics would be if there were more stringent controls on gun ownership. Most gun deaths in the U.S. are suicides—and while the presence of a gun in the home certainly makes suicide easier to accomplish, and perhaps more tempting, some of these deaths would occur anyway (there were 38,364 suicides in the U.S. in 2010, half of which were committed with firearms). Gun homicide in the U.S. is mostly the work of career criminals—not the result of ordinary gun owners with no history of violence suddenly going berserk. If we could keep the guns out of the hands of criminals and the mentally unstable, there is little reason to think that the rates of murder and suicide in the U.S. would be inordinately high. Of course, we have completely failed to do this. But taking guns away from responsible people isn’t a way of doing it either.

An ethical argument for the banning of guns must deal with the hard case: Where a legal owner of a gun—who stores it safely and knows how to use it—winds up protecting herself when only a gun would avail. I don’t see why a responsible person should be prevented from preparing for the rare encounter with violence just because other people are unfit to own guns. As I have said, the prospect of gun accidents does not decide the matter. It isn’t necessarily irrational for a person to incur added risk of injury or death to prepare for certain events that he or she considers worse than mere injury or death. We increase our risk of both every day in far more frivolous ways than by preparing to defend ourselves and our families against the worst possible violence.


Many people seem to think that guns radiate danger, rather like plutonium. Needless to say, if millions of our neighbors began asserting their right to maintain private stockpiles of plutonium for the purposes of recreation and self-defense, we would be outraged. And we would derive little comfort from the precautions that “responsible” plutonium owners took to handle this material “safely.” The mere presence of the stuff on our streets would impose an unacceptable risk on everyone.

But guns are not like plutonium. They are like cars. The number of homicides (11,078), suicides (19,392), and fatal accidents (606) with firearms roughly equals the number of highway deaths (33,687) each year. But when guns kill people, it is almost always because the person who pulled the trigger intended to cause a death (either his own or someone else’s). When cars kill people, it is almost always an accident. This strikes me as a very important difference. People are doing their best to stay alive while driving, and to avoid harming others, and yet they are failing at a rate that exceeds that of intentional killing with guns.

Judging by the rate of accidental death, cars are much more dangerous than guns. More important, we impose much greater risk on our neighbors by driving than we do by keeping a gun in our homes. Many readers will object that this is an unfair comparison—“Guns are for killing people, while cars serve many necessary purposes”—but this objection misses the point. We are talking about the ethics of assuming personal risk of injury or death and of imposing such risk on others. The statistical argument against gun ownership derives all of its ethical weight from the following claim: If we banned guns in the United States, we would save many thousands of lives each year.

We could make driving much safer than it is, at very little cost, and yet we haven’t done so for reasons that parallel the concerns of gun owners, while being far less compelling. We could, for instance, limit the speed of all automobiles in the United States, including Ferraris and other high-performance vehicles, to 65 mph. And we could reduce their powers of acceleration, so that it took over a minute to achieve top speed. How many lives would this save? Surely many thousands. Why haven’t we passed an “assault weapons ban” of this sort on cars? Probably because it would make driving less fun. Most of us want the freedom to drive faster than a performance ban would permit—faster, even, than the legal speed limit. We seem to be asserting our freedom to break the law at the cost of thousands of lives each year. This seems ethically indefensible.

Despite what many readers will think, this is not a comparison of apples to oranges, or a rhetorical trick designed to obfuscate the problem of gun violence. As I have said, I believe gun regulation should be much stricter than it is—stricter, in fact, than anyone can reasonably hope for in the United States, even in the aftermath of Newtown. But here, I am addressing the claim (generally made by readers living outside the U.S.) that guns should be banned altogether, based on the statistics. Never mind that no one can envision doing this in the U.S., I believe that the case is flawed even if the path to a gun ban were clear.

A gun makes it relatively easy for a person to kill other people and himself, whether intentionally or by accident. A fast car confers the same power. But it is easy to argue that a sane, law-abiding person could find himself in a situation where he needs a gun to save his life—and that he should be able to have one despite the attendant risks of gun ownership. It seems grotesque to argue that a person who finds himself endangered by violence in this way should be made to pay (perhaps with his life) for the irresponsibility and criminality of others. I cannot as easily make the same argument about a car that drives faster than the maximum speed limit or that accelerates from 0-60 mph in 4 seconds. And what if most highway fatalities were the result of criminals and suicidal people intentionally crashing their cars? Who would then advocate that we ban all cars or limit their speed for everyone else?"

Classic Jorge
01-06-2016, 11:38 AM
He seems to be happy to dismiss almost every statistic to support guns being dangerous whilst playing up almost every one he can lay his hands on for cars being moreso.

redgunamo
01-06-2016, 11:43 AM
We want them to have to justify it, so they humour us.

Monty91
01-06-2016, 11:46 AM
has a gun, violence tends to be more lethal, and suicides and gun accidents more common."

Berni
01-06-2016, 11:46 AM
Cars fulfil a practical purpose. They are entirely necessary to modern life and the fact that many people can't be trusted with them is does not outweigh their practical necessity. Thus, banning, restricting or severely limiting their use is not practically possible.

Guns serve pretty much zero practical purpose for most of their owners other than to give them some illusion of safety or just for fun. However, enough people have shown that they cannot be trusted with them to make it clear that their widespread sale is a bad idea. It would be perfectly possible to take guns away from people with virtually no significant ramifications for the economy or society as a whole other than saving thousands of lives.

Classic Jorge
01-06-2016, 11:49 AM
Call me a wooly mided, peacenick, faggy-euro, elitist, ****o liberal (you wont be the first) but I simply dont get it.

The only reason you need a gun is that other people have guns. Or you are massively insecure in your own manhood.

Classic Jorge
01-06-2016, 11:50 AM

redgunamo
01-06-2016, 11:50 AM

Berni
01-06-2016, 11:51 AM
It seems to me that your average Yanqui has several definitions of who he is - many of which are inherently contradictory.

redgunamo
01-06-2016, 11:53 AM

Classic Jorge
01-06-2016, 11:54 AM
The kickaway at the end :cloud9:

http://www.gifsdivertidos.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/obama-skater.gif

Monty91
01-06-2016, 11:54 AM
Merely a small reduction of the speed limit, even by so little that its effect on the economy is probably negligible, would almost certainly save many lives. Why do we choose not to do so?

It is very much an ethical and philosophical issue, and you inadvertently prove that. It's about the ethics of objects and what they represent in our minds based on their cultural meaning.

Classic Jorge
01-06-2016, 11:55 AM

redgunamo
01-06-2016, 11:55 AM

Berni
01-06-2016, 11:55 AM

redgunamo
01-06-2016, 11:56 AM

Monty91
01-06-2016, 11:58 AM
knocking around, is there not a large degree of rationality behind wanting to own one yourself.

Put it this way, the second you were confronted by someone with a gun, and were offered one by a passer by, what would you do?

You are conflating two issues: 1) the motives of people wanting to own guns, which can range from being despicable to utterly logical, and 2)what should be done about the fact America's clear and undeniable gun problem

redgunamo
01-06-2016, 12:00 PM
Nobody else has the guns to steal the money to buy guns. If you follow me.

Berni
01-06-2016, 12:02 PM
cannot go above 65mph. That is impractical and prohibitively costly.

This is not about what objects represent, it's about weighing their value against their dangers, factoring in the practical problems associated with making them more safe and offering a course of action.

Classic Jorge
01-06-2016, 12:02 PM
Twice up close and once when shots went off near me.

You're also confusing them, in that case. The motives are what the motives are, mostly they boil down to fear. The fear stems from the fact other people have guns.

What should be done about it? I'd suggest the genie is well out of the bottle there, like 300 years out. They just have to live with the fact that nutjobs have the constitutional right to go and shoot up a school or a church.

Berni
01-06-2016, 12:06 PM
criminals than there are instances where legal gun ownership has resulted in suicide, murder or accidental death, so the whole 'Only criminals will have guns' thing doesn't stand up, since the legal ownership of guns is effectively causing criminality.

The vast majority of mass shootings in the US (of which there are a horrific number - far more than most of us realise, in fact) are carried out using legally-owned firearms. No legally-owned firearms, no mass shootings.

Sir Charlie of Nicholas
01-06-2016, 12:08 PM

Berni
01-06-2016, 12:08 PM
suppose you can understand them being a bit jumpy.

Sir Charlie of Nicholas
01-06-2016, 12:10 PM
Oh.

Monty91
01-06-2016, 12:11 PM
more deaths from car accidents, if these restrictions could be implemented in way that was not prohibitively expensive?

Like, say, dropping our motorway speed limits to 50mph?

redgunamo
01-06-2016, 12:11 PM
almost never get burgled is hardly newsworthy, is it.

Monty91
01-06-2016, 12:12 PM

redgunamo
01-06-2016, 12:13 PM

Berni
01-06-2016, 12:14 PM
we just have to accept that people cannot be trusted with them. Obviously, I think you or I should be able to walk into a shop and buy an assault rifle and have a spot of fun whanging off rounds. However, that desire is ultimately outweighed by the fact that, in order to let us do that, we'd also have to let the truly dreadful people who make up the rest of mankind do the same. And that's too high a price to pay.

I blame democracy for this mess, of course. Once upon a time, it was simply assumed that someone who'd gone to the right school and behaved like a gentleman could be trusted to do whatever the f**k he liked - and that was pretty much right. Now, however, we can't have one rule for decent people and one rule for scum and the whole thing's f**ked. :-(

Classic Jorge
01-06-2016, 12:15 PM
Which is why I have absolutely no desire to go there again and I'm perfectly happy for them to keep killing eachother, though I reserve the right to object to them pumping guns - and all sorts of other dangerous weapons - to any tinpot puppet dictatorship they choose to set up in the rest of the world.

Berni
01-06-2016, 12:16 PM
Plus, as has been pointed out, a gun that is responsibly kept in the recommended locked cabinet is unlikely to be of much practical value during your average home invasion situation, is it?

Sir Charlie of Nicholas
01-06-2016, 12:17 PM
as such.

I would consider Zambia or Cambodia. Laws are for ordinary people only there.

Sir Charlie of Nicholas
01-06-2016, 12:18 PM
Are you a bit, you know, mean?

Pokster
01-06-2016, 12:20 PM
they are statistically the safest place to drive.

Berni
01-06-2016, 12:20 PM
practical benefits of legal gun ownership in the US outweighed its negatives. He doesn't because he can't. :shrug:

Berni
01-06-2016, 12:23 PM
to enforce, would instantly criminalise most of the population and would have a deleterious effect on the economy.

redgunamo
01-06-2016, 12:24 PM
No worries, of course, though, if you are well-to-do and live in a nice neighbourhood with a polite, attentive police presence, some of which may or may not be armed.

While this may reflect the situation in the White House, I gather this is not always the case in the rest of America.

Berni
01-06-2016, 12:25 PM
However, since they represent a vital part of our supply network, there's not much practically to be done about that.

Berni
01-06-2016, 12:27 PM
Essentially, what you're proposing is an arms race. And criminals are always going to win an arms race with law-abiding citizens because - well - they're criminals.

Pokster
01-06-2016, 12:28 PM
as braking distances have dropped as technology has improved.

There is a case for reducing speed limits in towns as that is where most deaths occur

Monty91
01-06-2016, 12:28 PM
He makes an ethical argument for the right to self-defence based on the practical and undeniable fact that a total ban on guns is impossible.

He also, it's worth noting, supports far stricter gun control laws than any current serving politician.

Monty91
01-06-2016, 12:31 PM

Berni
01-06-2016, 12:31 PM
I didn't put them there and I've never heard anything from anyone associated with Neighbourhood Watch, of course, but you can be sure they strike fear into the hearts of any potential wrongdoer.

Although, when I looked at the sticker closely, I did notice that one of the chaps featured seems to be a bit...y'know...ethnic. :- I can only assume the bobby has taken the fellow in hand and is planning to take him to the station and kick him down the stairs.

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mjTHrofDbs9j7FNyiDJzACA.jpg

Berni
01-06-2016, 12:36 PM
argument is a nonsense, since there is little meaningful evidence beyond isolated anecdotes that legally-owned guns offer much practical protection. And certainly when weighed against their downsides, such examples as there are fade into meaninglessness.

And, if we're talking about the ethics of self-defence, calling for restrictions on ownership flies in the face of any such argument, since it is essentially to argue that some people have a right to defend themselves and others do not. How is that fair?

redgunamo
01-06-2016, 12:37 PM
Personally, I like the idea of being responsible for things. I've done alright and I find it abhorrent that some kid on 3-400 quid a week gets shot at protecting me and my family and my stuff.

Berni
01-06-2016, 12:39 PM
citizens and demanding they be handed in at the local cop shop would immediately ameliorate the situation.

Berni
01-06-2016, 12:40 PM

redgunamo
01-06-2016, 12:46 PM
Not because it always works, mind you. But because it's.. well.. right.

Monty91
01-06-2016, 12:50 PM
when the inevitable backlash arrives as the deaths of former gun owners denied the right to protect themselves (however rare these incidences are in reality) killed by gun-wielding criminals start stacking up?

Or do you see this is a generational battle for which will only see the true benefits in decades/centuries to come?

Luis Anaconda
01-06-2016, 12:55 PM
But strict controls in built up areas people seem far more courteous driving around cities

Berni
01-06-2016, 12:56 PM

redgunamo
01-06-2016, 01:05 PM
If you don't then introducing them would naturally be problematic if not downright terrifying. Making them freely and legally available to every teenaged delinquent and angry ex-wife in London would, of course, lead to carnage.

If you have them, you surely see no compelling reason to give them up.

PSRB
01-06-2016, 01:35 PM
so limiting speed to 65mph would serve no purpose whatsoever

Trucks being restricted to the inside lane only and banning anyone for life that causes a M-Way accident would help more

Unless eveyone drives at 20mph maximum then deaths will occur

redgunamo
01-06-2016, 02:09 PM
subject to the necessarily restricted perspective of that medium.

To me, the only "fact" that matters is there are more than 300 million people over there and they seem to do alright.