Berni, re your Guardian comment about Corbyn being branded a hypocrite if he ends up supporting

[Monty91]

military action in Syria.

Do you not think his efforts to introduce plurality into the Labour party will help him wriggle out of that one? He will simply say “I have my own strong reservations, but my party has spoken and I must support the majority view, for this is the new democracy."

Not that this will be a successful tactics in the long term, but as a defence against accusations of hypocrisy, it serves as a useful weapon.

[Pokster]

I don't think anyside can really claim the moral high ground

[Classic Jorge]

[Luis Anaconda]

Burke

the quote not you

[Monty91]

him “fit to work”. On face value this obviously sounds like an appalling indictment.

The problem is, is it not entirely possible that the strictness of the “fit to wok” criteria has also prevented people from spiralling further by compelling them to get back into the workplace in spite of their mental health problems?
How can we possibly making a judgement call without that information to hand?

[Classic Jorge]

[Classic Jorge]

I think it's an important distinction, as they're targeted to get people back in to work which makes the whole system less than fair and/or impartial.

I'm no expert on mental health, though I have a fair bit of experience in the field, but I dont think the man up/pull yourself together/soldier on approach is a particularly helopful one most of the time.

[Monty91]

I used to transcribe asylum applications for the Home Office when I was barely out of my teens and might well have f**ked up someone's life in the process.

Of course many people with mental health problems will not be cured even if forced back into the workplace. But many will, especially those without clinical disorders, so do we not owe it to them to drag them out of their rut through tough love?

[Luis Anaconda]

[Classic Jorge]

And I think the 2600 odd people that have died after being declared to work might back me up on this were they not dead through tough love.

[Berni]

If everything becomes a free vote, then what's the point of a party? Corbyn's supporters supported him because they believed that his policies would also be those of the party he led. They didn't vote for him just to get the PLP's policies. Ultimately, such an approach will simply be seen for the cop-out it is.

[Classic Jorge]

[Luis Anaconda]

[Monty91]

How many suiciders?

[Peter]

Or 'if it isnt hurting it isnt working' if you will.

[Berni]

country that will save billions because of a couple of sad anecdotes?

[Peter]

[Berni]

[Monty91]

There is surely likely to be an element of self-fulfilling prophecy with some people who are deemed "not fit to work" where it merely sends them into a deeper spiral. After all, for anyone who *wants* to work, being told you're not in a fit state to do so should be highly demoralising. Whereas even if you're in a bit of a state, having someone tell you they believe in you and that you can do it if you put your mind to it, should feel a significant boost to their morale.

Simple man-management, shirley?

Of course, anyone who is considered a suicide risk should be treated with due care.

[Berni]

sat on my arse or I'll top myself', can you? They'd all be at it.

[Peter]

[Peter]

[Berni]

[Classic Jorge]

At least it made one person happy

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03368/snaps_ids-about-ap_3368683a.gif

[Berni]

That statistic has virtually no value whatsoever. I can look around my office at plenty of people who are fit to work but could drop dead tomorrow. That doesn't make them any less fit for work.

[Monty91]

but glad to see you have embraced this new era of authentic, spin-free politics.

[Classic Jorge]

[Classic Jorge]

You had this momentary period where you were almost convincing people of your humanity

[Peter]

The bureaucrat is all that common.

This should be abput disinguishing between those who are not fit for work and those who could be or already are. And making honest, realistic decisions about the individuals involved.

Unfortunately it is really about trying to bully people off their benefits amd off the statistics, assuming that the genuine cases will come back and eventuslly prove their disability and the fakers will skulk off back to work rather than starve.

Because as usual, they are tackling a political priority rather than an actual problem. And of course, they are not tackling it snywhere near as well or as ruthlessly as they claim. It is really just about talking tough in the media.

That's conservatives for you. Labour pick up on the few cases like this to paint them out as heartless but then that is the labour party for you. Along the way a few thousand people suffer but fortunately they are either mopers or fakers and nobody really gives a f**k about them.

[Peter]

[Monty91]

How is that uncaring?

What about this bloke? He died of malnourishment, but his sister says food phobias were part of his condition and so he mainly ate lettuce, even before they took his benefits away. How is that the government's fault?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/11827875/The-DWP-a ccused-of-killing-people-after-fit-for-work-death-figures-re leased.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsvideo/11827875/The-DWP-accused-of-killing-people-after-fit-for-work-death-figures-released.html)

[Berni]

have been anyway, we don't know what the causes of death were - we have no baseline figures against which to measure these numbers. Hence they are entirely meaningless.

[Peter]

:-)

[Ashberto]

[Peter]

Dead.

Just rejoice at that news. :bow:

(God, these tory quotes really do work for just about anything dont they)

[Berni]

I worked with a chap a few years back. Early 30s, but a bit of a porker. Lived above a pizza shop. We had a meeting on the Friday to which he contributed. We all said 'have a nice weekend' at 5.30.
Monday morning, it turns out the poor chap's dropped dead of a clutcher.

Bad business, but it didn't mean he wasn't 'fit for work' on Friday, did it?

[Berni]

much good. He'd have been better off getting out of the house and mixing with people.

[Peter]

As long as you dont give them a state funeral of course :-)

[Peter]

[Berni]

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

[Peter]

[Ears are alight]

Of course the real anomaly on death is that not all benefits stop for all claimants.

Much like all the dead season ticket holders who still show up.

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

Judgmental Peter.

[Peter]

[Peter]

You have to rule out cocaine first.

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

RIP.

[Berni]

[Peter]