The Levellers were fantastic. i really needed that after last week.

[Peter]

It was a strange old evening in colchester. There was music in the cafes at night and revolution in the air.

Berni, Sir C, you have been warned :-)

[Berni]

each other. :hehe:

Seriously, though, are these chaps who keep proposing a shift further to the left as a way back to power *actually* mentally subnormal? I mean, the right wing of the Tory party may contain a fair number of headcases, but for sheer, pigheaded, delusional stupidity, the Labour left seems to have them beaten hands down.

They put one in mind of a waiter who, on having food sent back for being too salty, then takes the food away, adds more salt and then wonders why the customer still isn't accepting it.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

I really, really wish that these chaps would get their act together and foment some proper civil unrest.

The thought of God's Own British Army being confronted by an army of unwashed idiots with dreads is one to fill the heart with joy, p. :hehe:

[Berni]

spraypainting 'f**k Tory Scum' on a statue dedicated to the women of World War Two?

Nice one lads. That'll show international capitalism.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Such charmers.

The delightful Laurie Penny was firmly behind this action.

They call us 'scum'. :shrug:

[Peter]

Was about the lack of a clear anti austerity message but even this is a misunderstanding. There is a bg difference between policy and message. Policy may be left wong or not, but a message is either clear or it isnt. It wasnt and you cant win unless it is.

I think six months of bickering is fine. The important thing os to get the leadership right and the message right.

Nobody will remember this in five years time particularly as the conservstives will punched themselves in the nuts more recently over the eu :-)

[Peter]

:-)

[Berni]

way? Was there anything more to it than sheer petulance?

[redgunamo]

Cameron apparently forgetting which football team he supports. Verily, this is the sort of opportunity his people would've been dreaming of!

Why won't lefties get it that toffs behaving like toffs actually goes down well with the voters. It's extremely reassuring for them to learn that their leader, a man who has been fabulously wealthy all his life, has better things to think about than which soccerball club is which. That's the whole point.

[Peter]

[Berni]

the right wing of the tory party a lesson about not getting complacent and disappearing up its own arse. The Conservative party isn't used to that sort of thing and the memory of having its clothes so effectively stolen by Blair is still pretty raw.

Your point about belief is an interesting one, actually. I have been pointing out to everyone who keeps coming up to me with the 'shy tory' narrative that they're missing the point entirely. The point is that voting tory is not an ideological position for most people, but a pragmatic choice. Thus, plenty of people will vote tory without ever identifying as tories themselves, whereas Labour voters tend to identify as such on an ideological level. The problem being, of course, that until voting Labour is a similarly pragmatic choice for the voter, they will remain out of office.

[Berni]

ironically makes him much more a man of the people than those who do.

[Berni]

He's a lovely chap: generous, charming, kind to animals and sentimental to a fault. I mean there's the unfortunate Bruce Springsteen business, but we all have our crosses to bear.

[Peter]

It believes only in sound, sensible government and the protection of institutions from rampant silliness or ghastly notions such as progress.

The strike against conservstives is obviously that they dont believe in anything and in a political sense this is true. Aside from vague notions of small government, self reliance and hatred of the poor (i just put that one in for a laugh) they dont. What they do is produce a clear message that the average voter can understand and accept. Until labour do this they will remain in opposition.

Blair understood this but crucially he also understood how to craft the message. We hsve five years to find a team who can do the same.

I am going to get dragged into this, i just know it. Maybe it is time.....

[Peter]

Tantamount to murder, b.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Such compliments from a gentleman of your intellect, erudition and standing within the community... I'm overwhelmed, soul. :cry:

[Ashberto]

interests best served by it. There seems to be this theory going round that all labour voters are either media luvvies (the so-called 'metropolitan elite') or strident ideologues.

[Berni]

ideology - at least when it is expressed as such. The trick is to be ideological whilst not frightening the horses.

That said, of course, the irony is that Mrs T was probably the most ideologically-driven Prime Minister this country has had since Gladstone.

[Peter]

With a lot of people it isnt even about the amount of tax you take fromthem as the difference is often minimal. It is about trust, identification and the choices you make.

I am actuslly slightly worse off under the tories and i am hard working, on a decent wage, dont claim any benefits. I do exactly what they claim they want yet they stick it to me.

Certsin people around me are in the same situation but they firmly believe they are personally better off even when it is obvious they are not. That is the magic pf the conservstive party.

[redgunamo]

if you have money. This popular belief is, of course, mostly proposed by rich folk in order to stop the poor from stealing their cars.

[Peter]

And talked tough about unions.

[Berni]

[Berni]

their abuser loves them, really. The odd bunch of flowers or box of chocolates after they've just bounced your head off the wall or blackened your eye makes all the difference.

Labour's problem is that it often finds it ideologically impossible to buy the flowers or chocolates because it sort of feels that their victims deserve it for being middle class.

This puts people off.

[redgunamo]

For you it's a purely practical matter of being hungry and wanting to eat something nice. For *her*, it's "ideologically important to not be expected to cook.

Which is why Maggie doing a fry-up for those builders that time was such a cool move. Or HMQ fixing lavatories way back when.

[Berni]

[Ashberto]

I don’t know if I’d give them credit for that though, in the same way that I wouldn’t blame the current lot for me being one of the millions working shorter hours for less money in the post-crash bumping-along-the-bottom economy. I honestly have no idea whether the economy would be doing better or worse had Labour won the last election.

[redgunamo]

[Ashberto]

[redgunamo]

[Peter]

Just ever so slightly worse off given their tax and pension changes.

Not complaining, just noting that plenty of people in the same job, same situation believe they are financially better off even though they are demonstrably not. The conservstives mansge to convince people pf this despite the evidence in their wage slips.

That is what an ineffective opposition does for you. I like the way that people in essex are not remotely bashful about admitting thst their vote is determined solely by perceived personal gain. It is quite amusing thst they camt even get that right :hehe: