I am proposing an awimb referendum on whether we should have a referendum on EU membership.

[Peter]

I would be happy to lead the no campaign (thst is no to the referendum, not no to the EU).

[Snin]

[Ashberto]

Keep holding the referendum until you get the vote you want.

[Classic Jorge]

Whilst you're clearly an asset to the campaign have you not thought about getting someone more europeaney as the figurehead?

[PSRB]

[Luis Anaconda]

[Snin]

what is this obsession with Markets J ?

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

We have one in a few weeks I think.

[Ashberto]

rather than the fact that the EU is an autocratic elite with contempt for democracy.

[Ashberto]

[Classic Jorge]

We need someone with an excellent military record, a decent family man, a leader among men and, if at all possible, an ethnic.

[Ashberto]

"you will keep voting until you vote for what we want".

Do the Irish guvmint do this too now?

[PSRB]

[Classic Jorge]

A good, honest, british (well sort of british) autocratic elite with a contempt for democracy.

None of your foreign muck, thank you very much.

[Red N White Army]

[Luis Anaconda]

have been forced into the Euro

[PSRB]

but the Euro was a crap idea

[Berni]

sore that has been afflicting the body politic for 40 years.

The only reason not to is that you fear you'd lose it. :shrug:

[Luis Anaconda]

[Classic Jorge]

[Supermac1976]

[Ashberto]

and all forms of self-determination.

Why not just impose direct rule on the whole world by Washington, Moscow or Brussels? That will get rid of those pesky, parochial borders!

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

So they re-ran it and got a Yes.

So when they got a No on the Lisbon Treaty in 2009 they ran it again about 12 months later and got a Yes.

We have 2 more now in May, Gay Marriage and one related to the Presidency.

[Berni]

Honestly, j, does avoiding the point of the clear existence of one bad thing by pointing to the supposed existence of another not get boring?

[Ashberto]

[Classic Jorge]

And, here's a radical idea, how about we actually got involved in the damn thing rather than sitting on the sidelines moaning about how the popular kids like France and Germany get all the girls?

[Luis Anaconda]

[Berni]

what they want.

Anyway, it's pretty academic, since the thing's coming apart at the seams anyway.

[redgunamo]

You have no idea what they think of you.

[Classic Jorge]

And anyway, the nationalist right's 'sovereignty' argument is pretty much predicated on the idea that we're quite happy with the racket we have already.

[Classic Jorge]

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

Not getting into the politics or economics of the debate, just a massive pain in the hole.

[Classic Jorge]

[Classic Jorge]

[Berni]

It isn't. Euroscepticism is a much more broadly-based viewpoint - both socially and geographically - than anyone cares to admit.

Besides, you automatically regard anything non-British as better than anything British, so your views are hardly representative.

[Berni]

first place. He didn't want an equivalently large player at the table. They still don't.

[Classic Jorge]

But I guess that would be whataboutery

[Classic Jorge]

[Berni]

Having travelled a bit, I do believe this country still to be one of the best places in the world to live and cherish some of the ways in which it differs from other countries. Wanting to keep them rather than be subsumed without any choice into a more homogenous Euro-mass does not make me a bigot.

[Berni]

That's the thing with Europe. You either do it France and Germany's way or not at all.

[redgunamo]

Must be all that state education, I suppose.

[redgunamo]

[Classic Jorge]

[Classic Jorge]

The spanish appear to still be able to have bull fighting and prodigious levels of racism, the portugese still eat bits of animals that aren't supposed to be fed to humans and the whole of eastern europe still makes the roma out to be untermenschen.

Apart from the faces on the money everything still seems pretty normal.

[Classic Jorge]

[Ashberto]

It was my original point and one you avoided by throwing the tired old 'nationalist' grenade.

Perhaps you do approve, which would be consistent for your dislike of democracy, on the grounds that some people have the wrong opinions. At least you and Berni agree on that broad principle, even if not on what the wrong opinions actually are. :-)

[Berni]

with our European partners, no?

[Classic Jorge]

It's a non-constitutional monarchy, I don't see that to be any different to a democracy phobic elite.

[redgunamo]

They're either ordered about at gunpoint or left well alone. This new craze represents progress at least. Well, change anyway.

[Berni]

Their political, governmental and legal systems didn't work anyway,so having them replaced by the EU is no loss to them. Ours did and do - in many ways better than their EU counterparts. That's quite a significant difference.

[Ashberto]

It's true we are an island nation. That must make for a different mind-set. Does Johnny German even know what the seaside is, for example?

[redgunamo]

[Classic Jorge]

That's my experience, on which my opinion is based.

[Berni]

[Classic Jorge]

[redgunamo]

[Classic Jorge]

[redgunamo]

[Classic Jorge]

[Ashberto]

but to say we live in a monarchy rather than a democracy is nonsense. The moment Brenda pops her clogs and that clown takes the throne you'll see how much influence they have. The moment he sticks his nose in they'll all be laughed back to Canada.

http://scontent-a.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xaf1/outbound-distilleryimage11/t0.0-17/OBPTH/48e598786c1111e2a2ab22000a1fb84b_6.jpg

I absolutely understand where all your well-intentioned internationalism comes from, but objecting to The Firm that runs Europe is not the same as objecting to Europe and integration.

After all this I'm still not sure whether you accept my original point or not, so I'll assume that you do. :-)

[redgunamo]

they are far better off staying out of it. There's absolutely no reason on earth why he should love them so much as he's hardly ever met any*. Unless *that's* reason enough in itself, I suppose.


*You can both spare me the Urban Trendy boilerplate about multi-culti London; presumably if you met me at Covent Garden in my dinner jacket, you'd assume that all Africans are public school and Oxbridge-educated warmongering former guardsmen from Henley-on-Thames who have emigrated to rural France to spend more time with their ponies and their hounds :homer:

[Peter]

And those are not the arguments against having one anyway.

The problem is that it isnt our membership of the EU that is the issue...it is immigration. A vote on eu membership will be undertaken on a vote against mass immigration, ignoring all the other aspects of membership and the benefits and costs of remaining/leaving.

I dont like the idea of a vote on immigration.

[Berni]

I think Mr T Blair may have some questions to answer here.

[Ashberto]

wherever you had to be with the old wheelbarrows full of cash to pay off the local militias.

As for our dear friend there, yes, I'm sure that if he really did like foreigners he'd still live here in London. Though one does still hear the odd English accent from time to time.

[Peter]

There is a conversation to be had about unrestricted migration, ideally one that balances the costs and benefits and also considers the human cost to those involved.

It could even be a conversation about how the eu treats new member states and the purpose pf them joining.

What i dont think it should be is a one dimensional public vote on whether we want a load of poles pver here or not and, if not, then we should leave the EU.

Still, if that is what people want who am i to object :-)

[Classic Jorge]

And how that's counterbalanced by exporting en-masse our old, frail and infirmed people to spain (1m) and france (450k)

[redgunamo]

countries of origin (mostly the Middle East, for me) legally back then. (As an aside, just like in soccerball, this led to a small decline in the quality of the local, British product).

And we do not put cash in wheelbarrows; we are not savages :-|

[redgunamo]

[redgunamo]

Britons aren't an island race for nothing.

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

Let's use the appropriate and correct phrase.

[redgunamo]

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

[redgunamo]