People moan about religion leading to violence. However without religion

[Pat Vegas]

would we have become a civilized society?

You can blame some extremists for just being behind the times as where they are from haven't developed yet.

discuss.

[Luis Anaconda]

[Snin]

baked for 40 mins with large cut in top like a baked potato and put on butter and salt and vinegar before baking mmmm

[Luis Anaconda]

[Nicosia Gooner]

[Pat Vegas]

been a year of fear.

Don't stare at the sun at the eclipse! Y2K BUG is coming!

It used to make me laugh. If you want to see the eclipse cut a whole in a piece of paper and have a look at the shadow. :shrug:

It's like being in a strip club and someone says don't look at the ladies have a look at these nice drawings of ladies.

[Berni]

Sorry. :-(

[Berni]

Lots of mustard. Dash of ketchup. Marvellous.

[Classic Jorge]

It's those *******s who like flaming hot that need beheading!

[Hillary]

[Pat Vegas]

giving packs of people a general guide on how to live.

Maybe without it we'd all still be savages.

[Classic Jorge]

I'm struggling to think of any classical atheist cultures, though the most successful ones were those which practiced tolerance and convivencia.

[Berni]

The only thing to touch them is Bacon flavour Wheat Crunchies imo.

[Classic Jorge]

You know what I miss? Roast beef and mustard Brannigans


ooooooooooh now that was a crisp

[Pat Vegas]

I am talking about people who make a point of being Atheist.

This is all strange talk from myself.

[Pat Vegas]

[Berni]

Brannigans also used to do a rather wonderful Beer Nut encrusted with salt that was to die for. Now they're reduced to Ham and Pickle. :-(

I also had a dirty liking for Scampi and Lemon Nik Naks. Although obviously one couldn't be anywhere near another human for hours after eating them.

[Snin]

[Berni]

[Hillary]

Animals formed social groups way before any religion started. This is the first step on the journey towards a civil society. There's no reason to think that we couldn't have reached the stage we are at without the aid of a belief in a supernatural law giver.

Indeed, one could argue that religion (or, more accurately, its governing bodies) has actually been a brake on our drive towards being a fully civilised society. Certainly in recent times.

[Classic Jorge]

Little Dawkinspart that he is

[Pat Vegas]

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

Religion, sport and drinking.

The order may be subject to change depending on what age you are.

[Hillary]

Atheist is as much a religion as bald is a hair colour.

[Hillary]

[Pat Vegas]

[Pat Vegas]

[Hillary]

Just that it wasn't necessary for there to be one.

And I didn't even take the Irish - civilised cheap shot :-)

[Berni]

it?

Religion was societally invaluable since it conferred legitimacy on pre-democratic rulers and rubber-stamped the status quo, thus avoiding all those tiresome 'why should I do what you say?' arguments that end up with people getting stabbed.

Plus, of course, people like believing in gods.

[Hillary]

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

And I would not expect cheap shots at the Irish from you.

That I leave to the Dutch second hand car dealer.

[Hillary]

Yes we grew up with Gods as (like you say) humans rather like them. You may also be right that this has some benefits in moving towards a civilised society. However, it has some drawbacks in this regard as well.

Also, it doesn't mean that religion is necessary to get to a civil society - which is entirely my point.

[Hillary]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

You've ducked underneath it and gone for outright lies.

[Berni]

All in all, the weight of evidence does seem to lean towards religion and organised societies existing at the very least symbiotically.

[Luis Anaconda]

favourite Monster Munch - beef all the way there

[Berni]

[Ashberto]

Shall I fly in here or not?

[Luis Anaconda]

Salt & Vinegar Discos, B&M Brannigans and Wotsits. If only they still did Ringos

[Classic Jorge]

:hehe:

http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/0wfOYmaqmoY45QFHw6.2mQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYyMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/sptussowexperts/r10_1.jpg

[zimgunner]

it isn't clear that pre-agricultural society was characterized by violence and suffering. There is mounting evidence that hunter-gatherers (which is what we were for the vast majority of our evolutionary history) led lives that were marked by the absence of infectious diseases, much more leisure time that we have, and a life expectancy of over 50 years (provided you got past infancy -- their infant mortality rate was much higher than ours, granted). Judging from the vestiges of hunter-gatherer societies we have today, they also likely had no mental illness and no social pathologies (such as serial killers).

In this light, the notion that we had to have Religion, Government, and any other capital letter concepts to drag ourselves out of a barbarous past (with lives being "nasty, brutish, and short" as Hobbes said) is more likely to be an ideological invention to justify present power structures than an accurate depiction of humanity's past.

From this standpoint, the agricultural revolution was an unmitigated disaster for humanity. It meant our diets became much less varied -- which hurt our health -- it created the possibility of surpluses and therefore wealth accumulation and inequality -- which hurt the social order -- and it enabled us to live in higher population densities -- which permitted all kinds of awful infectious diseases to run rampant.

If you are interested in this stuff, I'd recommend "Sapiens" by Yuval Harari and "Sex At Dawn" by Christopher Ryan (for an alternative take on our hunter-gatherer past, as it relates to sexual practices).

[Ashberto]

model until they are old enough to understand the next layer of sophistication. In fact the same is even true of learning chemistry. No surprise, therefore, that pretendy space-beings can help get backward societies up and running.

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

However you cannot continually be so rude about the Irish and not expect a backlash.

Let it be a lesson learned.

[zimgunner]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

I would never be gratuitously offensive, sw.

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

Simply the rudeness.


I fully accept a large proportion of our population are thick, muck savage animals.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

I'm confused now.

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

The epitome of those I refer to.

I am allowed to say such things you see. Mine is but a cultural observation of my own people.