Dr Headgear- I think I disagree with your claim that western culture cannot claim a moral highground

[Monty91]

The flaws and imperfections of western culture are underpinned by self-awareness. We know we are, to large extents, victims of our own nature.

In the case of animal slaughter, practitioners of Halal and Kosher methods believe the cruelty they inflict is in the name of their God. Self-improvement is not on their agenda.

Big old difference.

[redgunamo]

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

I'm not overly interested in the motivation, the actions speak for themselves.

"We torture animals with a certain existential irony" doesn't cut it as a moral standpoint with which to accuse others of cruelty.

[Berni]

[redgunamo]

to try to improve.

*If* that's what we want to do.

[redgunamo]

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

They're probably both Welsh anyway.

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

*IF* we clean up our act, *THEN* we can lecture others.

[Ashberto]

or watch naff fillums.

[Monty91]

and non-religious factory farmers.

I am asking whether you are prepared to draw a distinction between halal practitioners and, for example, a non-religious person who believes it is wrong to torture animals but will eat tortured animals in a state of cognitive dissonance.

Are you?

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

though I can't see any that carry much moral relevance.

[Classic Jorge]

http://www.marinelayer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/zoolander720pmp4aacx264.png

[Monty91]

1) torture animals and 2) believe it is ok to torture animals than to 1) eat tortured animals while believing animals shouldn't be tortured and 2) favour a world in which the economic structure of food production had evolved to a point that animal torture was no longer required?

Really?

[Classic Jorge]

Lots of them who'd been there for a serious stretch of time displayed some serious PTSD/psychosis type behaviour and a majority displayed worrying lacks of empathy.

Also, the very worst job is not apparently dealing with the intestines, it's the people who have to flush brains out of skulls to get that bit of extra meat out. It turns out that brain matter is vaporised and when it's breathed in the body treats it like a disease and the immune reaction kicks in, leaving the workers with odd brain problems themselves in later life.

Didn't Chris Waddle work in one? Maybe that explains the arzle/pelanty thing

[redgunamo]

we're cool with it because we believe our children will benefit from them.

That's always the deal, isn't it? "My" morals are not the most important thing.

[Monty91]

are unlikely to emerge mentally unscathed. I guess it can go two ways: the PTSD route or the inured to the point of indifference route.

My ex was an oncologist (no, seriously) and she would regularly want her patients to die prematurely simply to ease her workload.
She was, by popular consensus, a very good natured girl :shrug:

[redgunamo]

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

That's moving the goalposts slightly.

If anything, you could argue that the second position bears the added moral defect of hypocrisy. After all, what's the point in moral reasoning and sentiment if it doesn't motivate moral action?

And yes, I am that hypocrite in the second position, and I attempt to assuage my guilt by buying organic meat.

[Classic Jorge]

Doctors are a strange one, though. I've known a couple, one a filthy paediatrician even, who are amazingly sanguine about the whole thing.

[Monty91]

since everyone in the world WHO ISN'T A MASSIVE c**t would favour that scenario?

Tip: The crucial words in that sentence can be found in upper case.

[redgunamo]

discover if you have the stomach for it or not.