While I entirely understand Jordan's motivations, it's hard not to feel that executing a failed

[Berni]

suicide bomber is something of a redundant gesture, really.

[Classic Jorge]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

So expecting reason from them is pretty optimistic, really.

I'm only surprised the Jordanians haven't yet decided to blame George W Bush and blow up the nearest tall building.

[Berni]

I used to like his moustache and the diddy little British Army uniform he used to s**** about in.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Savages, nonetheless.

[Snin]

even do better ritualistic burnings..wd us imo

[Classic Jorge]

Thanks Snintendo, you've answered my question

[Snin]

if you keep up this moronic anti arab slant then I think it proves that ISIS are winning imo ..they are making even our .'keenest' minds ?? perhaps.. make mind numbingly generalistic and stupid statements..wd ISIS imo job done

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

wd s.

[Classic Jorge]

You know, like the in no way brutal and repressive saudi regime - of which 19 of the 21 911 high jackers were also - who are our mates.

It in no way basically comes down to any of that enemy's enemy stuff, oh no

[7evens]

Claiming the moral high ground is fairly meaningless when dealing with terrorists, who think nothing of beheading people and burning them alive.

[Snin]

http://en.alalam.ir/news/1673118

even piers morgan watches it :-) ..if anything is going to stop isis making vids it will be that piers morgan watches them :-)

tbh im not convinced..its like a scene from good, bad and the ugly..very hackneyed..kermode would not be impressed

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

'Saudi Arabia are our friends, ner ner ner'

I mean, what the hell are you talking about?

[Snin]

[Classic Jorge]

Not that they're merely a fig leaf for the crusade so it doesnt look quite so crusadey.

[Snin]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

understand it.

[eastgermanautos]

leaving the bombers themselves alive. fvckin with their heads.

[Classic Jorge]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Classic Jorge]

[Berni]

millions of their fellow muslims, complete with rape, murder, beheadings, crucifixions and burnings?

And now we're the ones undertaking a crusade? :confused:

Mind you, I imagine snin will now say I'm just naive for falling for the propaganda and that ISIS are actually just a bunch of well-meaning, if slightly over-enthusiastic social reformers.

[Rich]

I don't want to watch the video but want to know the answers to these questions.

[Berni]

[Classic Jorge]

Having seen his chat show once I can attest to the fact he's very experienced with televised deaths

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmitude

[Classic Jorge]

In many ways IS are our golem.

[Berni]

then let the crowd she just tried to kill kill her.

[Classic Jorge]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

'NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM!'

[Snin]

:-)

[Guns 'n' Roses]

Execution is not enough, torture killings are applied to scare the enemy further.

[Snin]

or fill her full of exposives then hand her back to isis and hit the button as they greet

[Berni]

muslims currently either fighting to keep ISIS and their brand of medieval savagery out or already suffering under its yoke.

Also, could you please point out the bits of this map that we, the west, are currently occupying?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/17/24C8100000000578-0-image-a-31_1421494877281.jpg

[Berni]

It doesn't help, for instance, that ISIS are continually telling everyone that it very much does have quite a bit to do with Islam.

[Classic Jorge]

[Snin]

ukraine facist boys going down the bheading route too..also remember that ISIS were trained in jordan and turkey by usa and saudi in first place..so everyones probably just as bad when let off the leash so to speak

people are savages really

http://www.globalresearch.ca/kiev-regime-battalion-is-behead ing-donbass-hostages-just-like-isis/5429135 (http://www.globalresearch.ca/kiev-regime-battalion-is-beheading-donbass-hostages-just-like-isis/5429135)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2119103/Serbian-gang sters-killed-rival-ate-disposed-body-using-MEAT-GRINDER-dump ing-remains-river.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2119103/Serbian-gangsters-killed-rival-ate-disposed-body-using-MEAT-GRINDER-dumping-remains-river.html)

[Berni]

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

while sneering at them for being semi-evolved.

That's cultural evolution for you :shrug:

[Rich]

[Berni]

And that is patently untrue, isn't it?

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

This is a good one even by your standards, j.

[the splendor of antigone]

their imperialist exploits :-)

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

I think you know the rest.

[Snin]

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

[Berni]

By the same token, it would be pretty arrogant to sell people arms and then tell them what they can and can't do with them, wouldn't it?

And anyway, surely that sort of cultural imperialism whereby we try and impose our good values on backwards people is exactly what you're against?

[Snin]

always backed and supported and given money as they have oil and happy to put up with israel ****ting on palestinians etc really

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

That would be the fault of the West, I guess.

[Luis Anaconda]

[Berni]

Anyone remember the Ummayad Dynasty? Or the Ottomans? They weren't averse to a bit of the old imperialism against the west as I recall.

[Classic Jorge]

Surely it's slightly ironic that one of the major pretences for invading iraq was that it was a haven for terrorism and we've now managed to create a pretty decent haven

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

That would make you a c*nt.

I'm in no way opposed of trying to spread the ideals of freedom, democracy and equality, so you can stick your straw man.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Berni]

eggs? That makes you a moral coward.

[Classic Jorge]

In many ways you have to take your hat off to these chaps, they've certainly stepped up the Shock and Awe game

[Brentwood]

[Classic Jorge]

I'm not advocating war but at the same time I'm not really sure what else there is to do

[Berni]

events that are many years in the past. I find this confusing.

[Classic Jorge]

And, if people had done less sympathising with the US follies of the last decade and stood by logic, principles and looked at what was right, rather than what was lucrative, then perhaps we wouldn't be in this position.

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

Your simplistic need to reduce everything to a question of whether it was once an opinion piece in The Guardian or not doesn't really lend itself to nuanced debate.

Yes, people with rocks and swords also kill people. It's just far more efficient with a gun, and even more efficient with a jet fighter.

[Classic Jorge]

Also, we're carrying out drone strikes on a more or less daily basis even now.

[Berni]

death? Yeah. Lovely bunch.

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

I take it you've also gone to the trouble of ascertaining my views before accusing me of moral cowardice, rather than, say, handing me off a generic Guardianista caricature to attack?

Jolly good.

[Berni]

and the subjugation of the whole world to their will, I'd want to know about it if we weren't bombing the barbaric c**ts.

[Classic Jorge]

[Berni]

We'll have to kill a f**kload more of them before we're done, that's all I know.

And, since we've been arguing for over a decade on matters political, doc, I hardly think it's a leap in the dark for me to suggest your views might be somewhat left of cente. :hehe:

However, if it turns out you are actually a hawk, I apologise.

[Berni]

ground.

[Snin]

invaded anyone.. and the The Iranian judiciary officially placed a moratorium on stoning in 2002 and also changed the law again in 2013. if any country is actually moving forward, helping us and deserving some recognition its iran imo

have you seen what christians can do ? again stop being so bloody simplictic..im really starting to think that you and sir c have slightly retarded metnal capability as you see everything in such ridiculous simplistic ways..its a tad emabarrasing tbh

at least i know when im being offensive / dim / racist or basic..you actually dont seem to unless im missing the nuances

[Classic Jorge]

That's not *defending* anybody, it's attacking pretty much everybody.

[Snin]

high ground and are defending themselves...going by the politics by numbers for simpletons that you spout yes?

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Yes. Definitely.

[Ashberto]

I left the left over 20 years ago because of its adoption of humanitarian war as a kind of therapeutic policy, while finding that some on the right would share my scepticism over the kind of interventions which were becoming fashionable.

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

nor in Saudi etc. etc. etc.....

We'll overlook any amount of barbarity and oppression if we can flog a few defence contracts and gain a "strategic partner".

Personally, I wouldn't have any moral objection to every single one of the IS c**ts being wiped off the map. But realistically, all we'd have afterwards is another vacuum that would likely be filled with some other c**ts.

Meanwhile, we don't challenge Islamic fascism and fundamentalism where we find it in our "friendly states", allowing its doctrines to grow with a seal of official blind-eye, if not approval, and we don't address the issues that lead to young Muslim men and women in the West becoming radicalised by it.

So I'd go for "Tough on Islamic Fascism, Tough on the causes of Islamic Fascism".

[Rich]

where gets bombed next.

The fact of the matter is - ISIS hide among these people precisely because they know they can use it against the west when civilians (yes, I know they're not actually civilians) get blown to bits.

If we sit back and do nothing then we're in for a big problem.

[Ashberto]

For example - supporting Islamism first in Afghanistan and then in the FRY did much to promote the notion of contemporary Jihad.

Than, smashing secular governments (even if not very nice ones) in Iraq and Libya left a vacuum into which the above radicals could flourish.

Finally, supporting the smashing of the Syrian government led directly to ISIS.

This analysis isn't about hating the West. It's about understanding the mistakes that have been made.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

for the terms of the Versailles Treaty. It's just a distraction - at the moment we just need to understand that we are right, they are wrong, and the job in hand is to concentrate on ridding the world of this eveil.

Afterwards we can consider the lessons about how to stop it again.

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

You'll be first in the interment camp when the Enlightenment By Force revolution comes....

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

Because how we deal with this now affects how we stop it happening again in the future.

[Classic Jorge]

[Classic Jorge]

You'll get no thanks for it though, you'll just be labelled a sympathiser.

It's easier that way, we get comfort from clinging to an outmoded, cold war era philosophy.

[Berni]

Difficult to draw up an all-encompassing, coherent strategy when **** keeps blowing up, tbh.

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

but surely it has to be attempted, rather than "lets worry about that later"?

Meanwhile our realpolitik gives credence to the claims that we merely pay lipservice to the Enlightenment ideals we supposedly proclaim, which adds more oil to the fire.

[Rich]

And are they really innocent given that they willingly hide them?

[Berni]

The best thing that could have happened in much of the middle east in the post-war period was a bit of proper colonisation by - most likely - the Americans. Trouble is, the Americans are a bit squeamish about imperialism, the pansies.

[Classic Jorge]

...that makes us better than them how exactly?

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

I don't think the solution is (or would have been) more Imperialism

[Ashberto]

First war that's come along for 75 years that I think we actually *should* be fighting, and it turns out that we're not. Odd, that. :sherlock: In fact, we're even arresting British Kurds that have tried to go out there and help their people.

So given that it's possible to both support the idea of blowing up the barbarians, and of understanding how this situation has arisen, I don't see the need to avoid or delay the latter.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

You can't fight a war being 'good'. You will lose. There's plenty of time to be good once you've won.

[redgunamo]

Warmongers are all very well but nobody likes a cheapskate one, killing people with fish-knives and whatnot.

[Rich]

If we didn't then they would be free to attack us at will.

I assume you're just being a wum.

[Berni]

God knows which way they'd pass the port.

[redgunamo]

[Classic Jorge]

Just who are the barbarians here?

[Rich]

(and they are just has bad as the terrorists themselves for hiding them) die, then fine - there is no other way to do it.

3. You suggest entire villages are destroyed. Today's precision weapons allow one target to be destroyed with very little collateral damage - it's one of the big arguments against nuclear weapons these days.

We need to win this war - and short of boots on the ground, there's no way to do it but pummel them from the sky wherever possible while allowing the local tribes/armies to win. They wouldn't stand a change without us and would be subject to the laws of IS. IS would then grow in strength and would soon try to branch out.

It's a necessary evil - everyone seems to grasp that but you, you weirdo.

[Classic Jorge]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/24/-sp-us-drone- strikes-kill-1147 (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/24/-sp-us-drone-strikes-kill-1147)

[redgunamo]

Our own barbarism, on the other hand, is so all-encompassing and generous that even ordinary people like you can drive fancy sports cars and still leave the rest of us enough over for fighter jets and tanks and Benelli M4s and Miles Davis LPs and dog food and Range Rovers for the wife.

[Rich]

Even if it were true, the people habouring them deserve death as well.

[Classic Jorge]

Listen to yourself, they "deserve death for harbouring these people".

You're no better than the IS yourself, in fact you're worse as you think in pretty much the same way but lack the balls to do anything about it.

[redgunamo]

[Rich]

this country wouldn't agree with what we're doing to stamp them out.

Fin.

[Classic Jorge]

These aren't even IS drone strikes