I never thought I'd say this, but I feel a bit sorry for the French and Hollande in particular.

[Rich]

He must feel that his world is crashing down around him. Poor chap.

If I were him I'd book myself in for 3 weeks in Barbados. Come back once the police have sorted it all out. Might not be the best PR move but I think he deserves it.

Failing that, I hope he's sinking a 2005 vintage Chateau Saint-Pierre Cab Sav every night. It must be the only way to cope.

[Berni]

[the splendor of antigone]

years.

[redgunamo]

[eastgermanautos]

[eastgermanautos]

[Rich]

underestimated the threat from Islam (not all muslims, of course).

But how can do you know which ones you can trust and which you can't? Some of them clearly have a different mindset.

The sooner we f**k off out of the EU the better. Then we'll do things our own way.

[eastgermanautos]

[Berni]

up against the FN due to being dead. Also, the whole of France is pretty much lefty. Including the FN, really.

[eastgermanautos]

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

On most days I'd regard the rhetoric further down the board as being a bit of over-exaggerated internet posturing. I just seem to be hearing it from more and more otherwise rational people in more and more contexts.

Massively depressing.

[eastgermanautos]

bombing everybody.

[the splendor of antigone]

[Rich]

[Berni]

irrational.

It's increasingly clear that we're talking about a war on our belief systems, our culture and our societies as we understand them. The only rational act is to act vigorously in their defence.

[Classic Jorge]

[Rich]

as possible go back and just leave them to it? Then they have no reason to be cross with us and will leave our innocent people alone.

[Classic Jorge]

[Berni]

with certain, widely-held right wing attitudes about race and social mores that would make the average British Tory's eyes roll.

[eastgermanautos]

that's what we have here in the US. Mexicans who've been here for a while want nothing to do with those fresh off the border. It's like, fvck you, we don't want your bum beaner asses. They are the ones trying to keep the others down. So if the people already here could *join your various far-right parties, that's the ticket.

[Classic Jorge]

[Rich]

this land. I'm not a racist or anything, but it's caused far too many problems already and things will only get worse if we allow more to come in.

Once we have the issue of them coming here to benefit from living in the UK, we can deal with the issue of the ones already here that want to change our way of life.

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

A few f**king nutters and you want to demonise the bloke that fixes your teeth, sorts out your taxes, sells your newspaper. You'll do all this by betraying the post enlightenment ideals that you're supposedly defending.

And aside from any idealistic standpoint, it's also about as pragmatic as a chocolate teapot.

[eastgermanautos]

[Berni]

Middle East and into Europe spreading itself 'By the Sword'. Muslims don't really get why, since God's on their side and that, they've pretty much had their arses handed to them by the Infidel for the last 450-odd years (if we take the Battle of Lepanto as the end of their peak). So, since the Qur'an pretty explicitly demands the subjugation of the world to submission (which is what Islam means, after all), it's fairly ludicrous to trace the violence of Islam back only as far as Europe's colonial jaunts. It's pretty much an inherent part of the religion.

[the splendor of antigone]

Christian does with the Westboro Baptist Church.

edit: average Muslim living in the West that is

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

Christianity back ten was, of course, the image of peace and tranquility....

[Luis Anaconda]

[Rich]

[Berni]

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

You're arguing that the very fabric of western civilization is threatened not by butters, but by Islam itself.

Tell that to the Muslim gendarme shot dead yesterday.

[redgunamo]

[Berni]

pretty much constantly advocated non-violence. Indeed, various Popes and theologians had to fudge things pretty damn hard to come up with concepts like 'Just War' and crusades when it suited them to do so.

For Islam, however, it's right there in the book, which kind of means it always will be.

[redgunamo]

[Berni]

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/098/9/c/south_park__wallpaper_butters_stotch_by_hieifirebl aze-d60wolq.png

Well that muslim cop was a classic example of what I'm talking about. He was on the right side. I've no issue with anyone on the right side. They can believe what they like as long as it remains their personal belief. I'm not interested in making a window into men's souls.

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

you can't be both a good Muslim and a good westerner.

And you said yourself you have no interest in the plurality of the Muslim population - they're just "them" to you.

Don't quote bugbears and consistency at me either, it's a **** line for people that have been found out.

[the splendor of antigone]

perpetrated in Paris?

[Berni]

That's not a tiny minority. Neither is the 25% of French muslims who believe that the Charlie Hebdo 'blasphemies' were deserving of death.

[Luis Anaconda]

Very poor show to rely on such sketchy figures which may well have been produced by those with an agenda, b

[Ashberto]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2c/Professorchaos2009.jpg

[Classic Jorge]

Either that or we nuke southall, I'm not really sure

[Classic Jorge]

[Ashberto]

then I would say yes, the vast majority of muslims who oppose these nutters could show their opposition and it would be a very good thing.

[Berni]

of personal beliefs people of all creeds hold abhorrent. If, however, they subordinate those beliefs to the common good and keep them to themselves then that isn't a problem.

If anyone tells me, however, that their religion comes first and all other duties and loyalties are subordinate to that belief, then I have a major f**king problem with them and believe they should be treated with extreme suspicion and subject to scrutiny and harsh measures.

If you are a muslim, you must accept that you will be treated differently to other parts of society since your religion makes you suspect. You must, if anything, try harder than others to convince society you are not its enemy. That's just where we are now. There's no point anyone pretending it's not.

That chap didn't get up on Monday morning thinking he was going to be on the front line of the war on Islamic terror, but he was. Maybe a few more muslim victims of such people and the muslim population at large might wake up to their shortcomings and start to put their house in order.

[Billy Goat Sverige]

a rally in Stockholm supporting muslims. Woudn't hurt if they did the same in these situations.

[Luis Anaconda]

http://img.thesun.co.uk/aidemitlum/archive/00116/a_116921a.jpg

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

It's like they're being asked to apologise for something they didn't do.

[Luis Anaconda]

it would just be an act of goodwill in a time of tension and distrust

Although if one of them stubbed a toe on an infidel satanic curbstone, Jorge would probably call it genocide

[Classic Jorge]

...willing to kill for them.

I just hope this is all message board posturing, personally.

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

"put their house in order"

You're holding the whole Muslim population accountable for the actions of a few nutters.

Are you accountable for Westboro Baptists? For Brevik? For firebombing mosques? For desecrating Jewish graves?

[Classic Jorge]

Feel free to trivialise that all you want, even if it was *literally* decimating Japan at the time.

[Berni]

The whole 'tiny minority' argument just doesn't stand up, I'm afraid.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals- 40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html)

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

Perceiving an absence of a protest as a gesture of ill-will is misconceived though - which is were we seem to be. Plenty of Muslims have demonstrated individually, plenty have made statements abhorring terrorism, but we still see this requirement for Muslims to some out and accept that it's somehow down to them that terrorists exist and kill people.

[Berni]

I certainly have a duty as a member of that society to make unequivocally clear that I abhor those things and regard them as totally unacceptable. That is not something the muslim community has ever successfully done. Indeed, its support and sympathy for the supposedly tiny radical element is pretty terrifyingly significant. This is not a 'tiny minority'.

[Luis Anaconda]

since you make a big deal of it. Decimate means remove one in every ten that would make the population of Japan at the time 3 million. It was actually 76million, It wasn't genocide, it was an act of war designed to save American lives (population 139millionif xou are interested). - you are just wrong and making an arse of yourself to Rich proportions by pursuing the argument

[Ashberto]

Because it was the right thing to do?

[the splendor of antigone]

[Luis Anaconda]

how dull

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

as 99% thought the bombers were wrong to act how they did.

That's disgusting cherry picking and spin of the data, ad you know it.

By that argument, and your own rhetoric today, I can count you as "supporting" Brevik.

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

Argue properly, none of this agreeing *******s.

[Berni]

[Berni]

in my book. There is no sympathy to be spared for scum like that. You abhor them and damn them or you're on their side.

[Classic Jorge]

gpwm, let it never (or at least rarely) say I don't admit when I'm wrong

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

[Ashberto]

without supporting the feckers who were blowing people up.

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

[the splendor of antigone]

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

The minute someone takes a cause or issue you have sympathy with and does something terrible in its name you have to abandon the cause.

We could turn Berni from being Conservative simply by assassinating a labour politician.

[Berni]

And anyway, we're not talking about 'understanding the feelings' of.

We're talking about sympathy, which means a sense of agreement and common feeling. About people who have deliberately taken bombs onto public transport and blown up innocent civilians on their way to work. f**k that.

[Berni]

To excuse it is to tacitly support it. To support it is abhorrent.

[Dr Headgear - Wannabe viking]

But don't let me get in the way of you embarrassing yourself further.