Could someone please explain something to me? I would like to better understand how these muslims

[Rich]

that shot the innocent Frenches managed to simply drive out of the city after the incident?

How did not a single police car follow them?

How can they not pick them up on CCTV on the way to their final destination.

There is absolutely no way that this would have happened in London (the escape, I mean. Although the attack would probably be less likely here too). They were at the offices for a sustained period of time. Within minutes of something like that happening in London the local area would be swarming with SCO19 Met Police.

I'm afraid it smacks of the typical French cowardice that we've seen in recent history.

[Pat Vegas]

['Neg]

[Snin]

the french shouldnt have wound them up by recognising palestine imo.. Nethenyau said it was a grave mistake. they dont mess about

[Snin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2pupvDXO6w

[Luis Anaconda]

[Rich]

questions to answer?

[Luis Anaconda]

But who knows the full picture - seems they might have their men now. Perhaps in letting them "escape" they were hoping to expose the wider ring of accomplices. Je ne sais pas

[Classic Jorge]

[Snin]

[Rich]

[Luis Anaconda]

Is Arsene in charge?

[Snin]

dumb frogs ;-)

[Classic Jorge]

[Rich]

One thing that we do very well is policing and intelligence.

[Snin]

12 c**ts dont usually let themselves be arrested to easily! its going to be a f**king big gun battle / booby trapped apprtemtn cluster f**k killing field..wish you were there tbh

[Snin]

[Snin]

[Dutch Gooner]

still...that policeforce should have turned up a bit quicker....the attack lasted 15 minutes all in all

[Classic Jorge]

I dunno, maybe the police had their tyres shot out or they were busy tending to the one who got shot.

I dont imagine we'll ever agree on the merits of police or security services though.

[Rich]

[Classic Jorge]

[Snin]

[Dutch Gooner]

[Pokster]

you can't use 1 incident in Paris to say that they fecked up.... we had intelligence when the IRA was about, didn't stop them blowing up london etc etc

[Snin]

[Snin]

[Classic Jorge]

[Rich]

[Pokster]

if someone wants to do something like this, eventually they will

[Pokster]

is there no end to your talents?

Next you might learn something about football

[Rich]

OK - so it appears that they have to spy on phone calls and electronic communications, but it keeps us relatively safe.

Have you ever wondered why there are terror arrests on a near daily basis? Have you wondered why these suspects are always remanded in custody? Have you wondered why the trials are strictly private?

It's to keep methods used by MI5 and MI6 strictly private so they can continue to keep us safe.

Sure, one will probably 'slip through the net' every now and again but they are constatly thwarting terror attacks on London/other parts of the UK.

If you don't believe that then I would think you more think than you already appear to be. I would also hope you get caught up in the next one that does slip through the net.

[71 Guns - channeling the spirit of Mr Hat]

[Rich]

good thing?

These attacks require a lot of planning and it's very hard to do it without any form of electronic communication/phone calls.

[Luis Anaconda]

[71 Guns - channeling the spirit of Mr Hat]

[Classic Jorge]

The only way you stop these sorts of things more often is to bring in draconian powers that would curtail essential liberties, which ultimately defeats the purpose of the whole thing and dilutes the strength of the argument of the very thing you're fighting for.

WHAT DO WE WANT? FREEDOM!

HOW ARE WE GOING TO ACHIEVE IT? USHER IN A POLICE STATE AND CURTAIL THE ESSENTIAL LIBERTIES WE'RE TRYING TO DEFEND!

[Steve Williams - gay for Mark Knopfler]

I am reliably informed they had jet packs.


Now alternatively Paris is a very big city and having made good their initial exit from the offices of the satirical magazine I would imagine tracking a single car through the network of streets could be an issue.

Of course as you say it would never ever happen in London.

All down to French cowardice.

And to think a lot of people think you are a screaming retard. Incredible.

[Classic Jorge]

Are you a fan of the Stasi, Rich?

[Classic Jorge]

[Snin]

[Classic Jorge]

[Snin]

sweeeeeet

[Snin]

[Rich]

be silly and this is why the trials of these men and women that get arrested are ALWAYS held behind closed doors - as evidence from covert surveillance has to be put forward.

We know for sure that the Met will have spies planted within mosques that are suspected of promoting radicalisation - just as they planted spies in organisations that represented a threat to national security over the last 50 years or so.

If I said that certain words in Arabic/English flag up in voice recognition I would be speculating.

Given that we know they have 'individuals of interest' I would imagine their phone calls are listened to.

I would imagine that certain words/phrases from these individuals flag up on things like Whatsapp.

The thing is - it's not just good luck that we've avoided major terror attacks for some time now. Behind the US, we are probably the top target.

[Supermac1976]

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/terminal05/2012/6/13/15/enhanced-buzz-22370-1339614787-19.jpg

[Supermac1976]

[Rich]

My point is - sources have confirmed that they worked from room to room to find the individuals they wanted. This would not be something completed in 5 minutes.

I don't know when the first calls went in to the emergency services, but you imagine it would have been shortly after a woman with child was forced at gunpoint to enter the code to the building.

If London is anything to go by, there are a lot of police in the central regions.

Several patrol cars got to the scene (all normal French police are armed). They had a shootout and then we see the video of them shooting the policeman in the head and calmly driving off down a deserted street.

[Classic Jorge]

Thanks to people like Edward Snowden, who heroically sacrificed his own freedom to expose a lot of this nonsense, we actually know quite a lot about their technology.

Also, thanks to the requisite checks and balances of a democracy, we do too. It's simply not practical or feasible to monitor everyone all of the time and that's the only way you're actually going to be able to stop this stuff.

A very clever man once said “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

[Berni]

That's it, basically. :shrug:

[Classic Jorge]

tennis de singe?

[Classic Jorge]

[Pokster]

so i think i do understand it more than some jumped up idiot like you.

The rest of your comments (as usual) aren't worth commenting on

[Rich]

keep getting arrested before they have a chance to do anything.

The decisions to police in this way come from parliament and the heads of our national security agents. These people are vastly more intelligent than you can see the fact that it is a lesser of two evils.

Personally, I am happy for the police to do whatever they need to in order to stop as many attacks on innocent people as possible. Why would I care given that I have nothing to hide?

If you genuinely believe that they shouldn't be spying then I am afraid you are too bigoted/thick to have a sensible conversation with, I'm afraid.

[Luis Anaconda]

according to the Lee Child book I just read anyway. I pretty much take that as gospel on anything security wise

[Classic Jorge]

I'm more concerned with enshrining the rights citizens should have in a democracy, not that we are really citizens or this country is really a democracy.

That you would so freely abandon these rights to a shadowy, unaccountable cabal of government security forces tells me you aren't really knowledgeable about where this sort of business can, and quite often does, lead.

[Rich]

[Snin]

rs around paris..by time it would get to cctv guys they had already swapped.. lots of crims and gangs in london use cars and get away..I didnt realise London was crime free now due to CCTV ? thats a relief

[Classic Jorge]

[Rich]

I'm sure you've read about what a shock 9/11 was for US and UK intelligence services - that would never, ever be allowed to happen today.

I simply will not believe you if you think that the police should genuinely not be allowed to spy? You are in a huge minority if you think that.

The police do not stop me doing anything that I want to do because none of it is illegal. They will stop people doing things that put innocent lives at risk.

That is a good thing. Yes?

[Snin]

[Rich]

they suspect may be up to no good?

I find this a bizarre opinion to hold. I wonder if his views would change if the police stopped and his loved ones were blown to smithereens.

[Snin]

i'd be the happiest f**ker in jail imo ..knowing id done good

[Snin]

[Classic Jorge]

Look at it from a few different points of view, factor in a couple of other scenarios if your brain can manage it.

The security services already have far too many powers, most of which are granted after these little panics. Look at the case of JC de Menezes, they shouldn't be able to do what they did and get off with barely a finger wag.

[Classic Jorge]

[Pokster]

than you will ever know... the fact she worked for him MIGHT just help her know more than you think you do

[Pokster]

[Snin]

[Classic Jorge]

[Rich]

surveillance given that one of the bombers also lived there.

He looked very much like one of the bombers and he ended up being shot.

The thing is, the police simply cannot take the risk that they are harmless. If one person dies every few years that way it's a far better than hundreds/thousands being slaughtered every year because the police are completely blind to what others may or may not be planning.

That's just how it has to be. It makes no sense to be the other way around.

[Rich]

I have a rather amusing picture of her in my head :hehe:

Does she swill pints at the football too?

[Classic Jorge]

Nobody should face any sort of censure for any of that?

Unbelievable

[Rich]

reasonable person can argue against the fact that they should be allowed these powers.

You mention one unfortunate case where things should have been done better. That doesn't mean that what they do for your safety today should be stopped.

[Red N White Army]

[Pokster]

Andrew Christopher "Andy" Hayman, CBE, QPM (born 1959) is a retired British police officer and author of The Terrorist Hunters. Hayman held the rank of Chief Constable of Norfolk Constabulary and Assistant Commissioner for Specialist Operations at London's Metropolitan Police, the highest-ranking officer responsible for counter-terrorism in the United Kingdom. Hayman was directly responsible for the investigation into the 7 July 2005 London bombings

The fact she worked for him does give her a ever so slighly more informed opinion of the facts than you.

No, she doesn't swill pints... she doesn't go to football, but amazingly still knows more about it that you do

[Classic Jorge]

My main worry is the people arguing for these powers are the very people who benefit from them, with the added bonus that faced with any sort of scrutiny they claim secrecy.

I fundamentally distrust these people, mainly on the basis that they have proved themselves to be consistently distrustful and mendacious in the past, and would like there to at least be more stringent scrutiny of their actions - not to mention at least the vaguest threat of accountability, which there clearly isn't - as this should be a prerequisite in a modern, functioning democracy.

[Classic Jorge]

[Rich]

they will still be in a vast, vast minority when compared to the successes that they have.

I'm sure that deep down you agree that the whole point of the secret policing of people is for the greater good of me and you.

Yes, there will be casualties, but they will never stop because of the huge national threat represented by these terrorist groups.

[Classic Jorge]

[redgunamo]

[Rich]

country then so be it. If mistakes get made but they were made in good intentions in a code red situation (there is no time to consider things in depth) then I don't think the police should be prosecuted at all.

[Classic Jorge]

I'd be more worried about the threat of terrorism and less worried about the one from our governments if their first reaction to any threat wasn't to immediately curtail more of our rights.

[71 Guns - channeling the spirit of Mr Hat]

[Rich]

Both supported by The Guardian - they are both anti police.

Secret policing will never stop and it is FOR YOU OWN BENEFIT.

If you don't like it then leave the UK. I doubt you'd be missed.

[Classic Jorge]

Does that not at least point to some sort of abuse of all of our rights in the face of the security services?

Surely if that doesn't then the verdict to let everyone off scott free and impose only a tiny slap-on-the-wrists fine to the organisation should, no?

[redgunamo]

Yet again :rolleyes:

[Classic Jorge]

[Classic Jorge]

[redgunamo]

Anyway, my mum maintains a strong, centralised, brutally dictatorial regime fuelled by fear and fine brandy.

[Classic Jorge]

[Rich]

majority of it.

You need to look at the bigger picture and not just isolated incidents.

These rules are here to say - and rightly so. I find it utterly bizarre that you would say that the cons outweigh the pros - they most certainly do not!

[Classic Jorge]

You routinely trust these people, despite nearly everything we do know about pointing to the fact you shouldn't.

We only have their word to go on and their word has proven to mean ****.

[Pokster]

and you seem to have glossed over the point that you said my wife knew feck all, I think i have shown that she knows more than you do.

I haven't actually mentioned my views on secret policing, but don't let that get in your way.

I might well not be missed, as I am sure you might not be missed... can't quite see how that comment fits in with your rant

[Rich]

to you that something is happening behind the scenes that's good?

You are clever enough to realise that there is a reason their techniques have to remain top secret.

Anyway, if you cannot be reasoned with and that's fine, because people that know much better than you make the decisions and they would vehemently disagree with what you're saying. I imagine they'd find your opinions rather amusing.

[Classic Jorge]

My point is that nobody is actually in a position to make a value judgement of this, not you or I, but we do know that those powers are regularly abused and nobody seems to be held accountable for it.

[Nicosia Gooner]

;driving:

[redgunamo]

However, hauling them over the coals every time they missed would not have helped us.

People need to be allowed to fail in order that they may acquire the confidence to succeed.

[Rich]

[Classic Jorge]

[redgunamo]

Thing is, you would rattle their cage for fun just because, as you say, you don't trust them.

That would be counterproductive and far more dangerous. Just as bantering your own striker off for missing a sitter is.

[Classic Jorge]

[redgunamo]

Or is that a Kalashnikov in your pocket ;-)

[Classic Jorge]

[redgunamo]

we can all be genuinely pleased to live in the society we live in.

[Classic Jorge]

[redgunamo]