is Wengers 4th place prizes really that much of a success

[gco40203]

Our presence in the champions league has been given such prominence in the talk of Wenger's success especially over last 9 years. However I looked back over the final tables for the 10 years preceeding his arrival. We finished in top 4 in 6 out of the 10 years and 5th once and 6th once. Indeed the year before he came we finished 5th. All that came during a period with relatively modest spending.

So he didn't come to a club that had been a complete "failure" but in fact came to club that had been a reasonably consistent "success" if we now define success as top 4. Thus although Wenger has indeed perpetuated and cemented our top 4 status he is nevertheless no Shankley or Clough and maybe his 4th place finishes should not be viewed as such greatness by the AKB brigade. His first 9 years were truly remarkable but that has been mirrored by 9 years of lack of success no matter what smoke and mirrors he and his supporters want to put up. His last 10 years have been less successful than the 10 years before his arrival.

[Chief Arrowhead]

[the splendor of antigone]

our debt. That meant selling our best players almost every season.
Spurs, Liverpool, United, Chelsea, City, Sunderland, Aston Villa, and Stoke out-spent us.

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/PL-decade-spending.jpg

It's a remarkable achievement to have kept us in the top four during that period.

[Rich]

we couldn't laugh at people such as gco40203, eh?

[gco40203]

the trouble is that those stats only provide one perspective on the finances.

Wenger was given a budget within which to work but that includes wages as well as transfer fees. His policy of keeping wages within a narrow band basically meant he was paying almost as much in wages for squad players as he was our top stars. Why give people like Bendtner massive wages when he has not proven himself. Why keep paying Diaby year after year when he has contributed nothing to the team and there are many others over the years who were on comfortable contracts eating up money.

Also the reality is that he wasn't forced to sell our stars they all wanted to go and refused to sign contract extensions (Nasri, VP) or in the case of Cesc he just wanted to go to Barca.

Of course he wasn't given a bottomless pit of money unlike other clubs however we did not spend big in the 10 years before he came. Thus the point is that we did pretty much as well before he came as in the last 10 years so all that talk about his great success is just not substantiated since 2005. He hasn't made us worse, that is true but also he hasn't succeeded either.

[Supermac1976]

Stop spoiling the Wenger out narrative with all this Wenger in nonsense, I'm getting confused. :hehe:

[Ashberto]

best players all the time while two clubs with unlimited resources arrived on the scene. Strangely, this seems to have gone unnoticed in some quarters.

Also, this 'AKB' name-calling is a little bit playgroundish, I think. Of those who have supported AW, few see him as infallible, but rather recognise that he is one of the best in the business who, despite some shortcomings, deserves respect for what he has done through the good times and the bad.

Other managers have strengths that Arsene does not have, but his ability to attract and develop players tends to be overlooked.

[the splendor of antigone]

the moves themselves. They knew we weren't as competitive financially as other clubs. We still aren't, but we're getting closer. Thanks to Wenger's work over the last decade.

[Fast Eddie :L:]

:-

Anyways, this graph doesn't account for Almunia and making him vice-captain/captain :lol: and facing the same obvious deficiencies year in year out.
Our problem is more tactical, and maybe motivational, than personnel. A DM would help yes, but our tactics leave a lot to be desired and have done for nearly a decade.

[Ashberto]

to losing Mr Cole, as well has the wish to create a harmonious squad without the resentment that huge disparities can bring. It may not have worked with some players, but who knows whether the alternative would have been any better?

All managers spend money on players that don't work out. Bendtner was a talented player who also turned out to be a bit of a dick. That wasn't Arsene's fault. Gambles have to be made all the time, and it's easy to point to the ones that support your view than recognise that it can work both ways.

Hopefully you don't need me to come up with some players who cost him feck-all but turned out to be excellent value.

[Ashberto]

Welcome back. :wave:

[the splendor of antigone]

[Fast Eddie :L:]

The team is starved of guts and a mentality that the type of player Fellaini would bring.

[the splendor of antigone]

[Ashberto]

And they're still a bit ****, but just very lucky at the moment.

[Fast Eddie :L:]

The 'mistakes'/shortcomings are obvious to most and are repeated season after season. Our financial position over the years should have no baring on our poor tactical nous, our man management/motivation, defensive howlers and lack of balance. We had the cash to alleviate personnel over the years but the manager failed to add properly and add personnel and tactical balance.

[Fast Eddie :L:]

See, any rational discussion is met with sarcasm, hostility and ire. :rolleyes:

[the splendor of antigone]

your disappointment in what is the state of the current squad, and see what the man did over those 10 years where we had our stadium built and operated on a very limited budget.

[the splendor of antigone]

[Fast Eddie :L:]

And is arguably better than any of our CMs. Adds that ******* and a bit of that balance that we haven't had for a bit.

[Fast Eddie :L:]

I have been a massive fan of his for a while.

[Monty91]

glaring oversights?

[Fast Eddie :L:]

No DM whcih still doesn't account for our tactics.

Moral of the story - not finances but personnel, balance and tactics :-)

[Fast Eddie :L:]

Why do you think our tactics have been poor and why we didn't get in a proper-enforcer DM since Vieira/Gilberto?

[Monty91]

individual footballers.

Which is why I prefer to judge Wenger on a more quantitative basis. And whenever I do, the only conclusion I, like any rational person, can come to is that he's done enough to keep his job.

[barrybueno]

We know he's an intelligent man so he must see these problems but somehow thinks he can get through it with the squad he's got rather than get the cheque book out.

[Bergkamp's Brain]

of the pack.

Would one argue that 4th is relative failure?

[Nicosia Gooner]

that there have been under Wenger."

By Jeremy Wilson