Seems a bit silly that someone who actually did a rape can play fotoball, But a silly man who makes

[Pat Vegas]

joke about rape loses his tv job.

[Peter]

One after the other. I dont really see how she was in a condition to consent to one and not the other.

Certainly, this woman who has resigned over it on the grounds thst young men will take a lesson from this over consensual sex might want want to pick a better example.

[the splendor of antigone]

*I am being anti-male here assuming that the perpetrator must be a he. I don't intend to insult women by not associating them with football and rape. Apologies in advance.

[Berni]

would be one way she could not offer consent, surely? Although I'll admit that I would have thought the first chap would be guilty of aiding and abetting.

And I think the lady in question is actually taking rather a noble stance. The man is a convicted rapist. What you think about the case is irrelevant. The conviction is sound and it stands. Sheffield United's behaviour is reprehensible.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Presumably she consented to sex with one, but not the other?

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

It's how he earns his living. A criminal prosecution should not result in you becoming unable to engage in your trade.

[Classic Jorge]

[the splendor of antigone]

:hide:

[Berni]

[Pat Vegas]

Mr Laughs would have been better off raping someone doing his time then going back on telly rather than making a joke about it.

[Berni]

Evans committed rape and went to prison. The cases are rather different.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Thanks for that. I was under the ridiculous misapprehension that such matters were the remit of the criminal justice system, through which this individual has passed.

[Berni]

some moral responsibility for the messages they send to their supporters and the wider world. It's nothing whatsoever to do with rehabilitation.

By employing an unrepentant rapist, they effectively condone his stance, belittle his crime and offer the message that rapists will be welcomed back into the football fold should they be unfortunate enough to get caught.

This is, I would have thought, one of those 'right and wrong' issues.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

That period has now passed. The suggestion that society should continue to punish him for his crime ad infinitum borders on vigilanteism.

[redgunamo]

[71 Guns - channeling the spirit of Mr Hat]

[redgunamo]

[Berni]

Seems to me that stigma - the idea that you will be reviled in the eyes of decent people - is an absolutely crucial apect both in deterring people from certain crimes and in punishing them and should thus be encouraged.

Would you employ a convicted rapist? A child molester? Would you be happy if the Arsenal did? Is there a line?

[Berni]

wider public. Rehabilitation is just the excuse we use for punishing people.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

a convicted felon's life?

Do you have a line? Would you employ someone with a conviction for fare-dodging? 3 points for speeding? Failure to buy a TV licence?

[the splendor of antigone]

a concerted effort to a potential employer that they wish to change and very much are repentant. If the rapist isn't repentant there is certainly an issue with hiring him regardless of whether he's served his punishment or not.

[redgunamo]

[Berni]

against the person. In terms of employing someone, I would make a judgement on whether a/their crime suggested they could not be trusted b/ what impact their crime (if made public) might have on the business c/ whether I felt they might represent a danger to their fellow employees and d/ whether I could personally stand to be around someone who had committed such a crime.

[Berni]

I would probably take a more lenient view of Sheffield United's position had he done so.

[Monty91]

[Berni]

no football club should go near him with a bargepole.

[redgunamo]

Not particularly regarding this case. In general principle.

[Berni]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Don't worry about it. Pop the bill under the pile marked 'lazy student *******s' and I'll get to it later :thumbup:

[71 Guns - channeling the spirit of Mr Hat]

it turning out he didn't do it. If he appeals and is then absolved so be it...nevertheless he will have the stigma of at the very least taking advantage of a young girl who was by all accounts bladdered whilst being in a long-term relationship himself :shrug: standards, redg.

[redgunamo]

Especially up North, you'd think.

[Monty91]

That was my only point.

I understand that the law has found him guilty and therefore we must consider him guilty.

But we cannot expect the same of the individual in question.

[Berni]

Also, you were presumably happy to pay for him while he was inside, yes? Or would you rather he'd not gone to prison to save you a few quid?

[Berni]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[71 Guns - channeling the spirit of Mr Hat]

[Berni]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[redgunamo]

[redgunamo]

his punishment to continue, thereby infringing up the rights of Sheffield United to employ whomever they wish in accordance with that law. They are an individual too, after all, at least so far as anyone else is.

[Berni]

Nobody is saying that Evans doesn't have the right to be a footballer, nor that Sheffield United shouldn't have the legal right to employ whomsoever they see fit. The argument is that Sheffield United ought not to employ him because they ought to realise the implications such an action will have.

[redgunamo]

couldn't we? Namely that who gets picked must be the manager's decision.

It's one and the same thing.

[Peter]

Were she completely unconscious i would have thought it would be better to say that.

[Berni]

The narrow interests of Sheffield United and Ched Evans are the only causes served by the latter course of action.

[Peter]

Here is where the lines are blurred. She must have been f**king plastered when the first guy met her. Even if she had actuslly passed put before the second is that the line we want to preach to young men? If she is awake it isnt rape?

Hence my point re picking a better example.

[Peter]

Or that imprisonment is only the start of your punishment?

[Berni]

bunch of repulsive subhuman scumbags.

However, that's ethics. Where the law is concerned it's very simple. Having sex with an unconscious person is, by definition, non-consensual (because even if they suggest or even give consent to sex prior to passing out, having sex with them while unconscious removes their right to change their mind) and is therefore rape - so don't f**king do it.

I don't really see any blurred lines here, p.

[redgunamo]

at stake too. The game is no longer an island.

Which "side" of the argument holds more sway is certainly arguable.

[Berni]

in nick doesn't simply wipe the slate clean.

[redgunamo]

Is just not fair to stigmatise them.

[Peter]

Espoused by this woman.... That footballers, as role models (dont get me started on that one!) shape the views of young men amd that sheffield united have a responsibility to their community to make an example of this case/person.

My point is thst in this case another young footballer spotted a vulnerable woman pissed put of her face, grabbed her, f**ked her, then texted his mate to come and do the same. This chap is officially innocent and not a rapist. Ue can continue with his career.

If young men are so easily influenced by footballers do they not take a lesson here? There is a fine line between acceptable sex and rape and if you can get her to utter yes in a drunken slur then you are fine to proceed.

At the very least you have to say accept it is a confusing message for a teenager.

[Peter]

Why?

[Berni]

And a football club is a highly public and influential thing. This is a fact from which clubs benefit, but which also means it behoves them act in a way that takes into account the influence it has.

[Berni]

People need to see that, if you risk getting on the wrong side of that law, there are consequences over and above the immediate judicial punishment.

[redgunamo]

Boycotts, protests, armbands? Perhaps it is a Sheffield United issue, purely because they aren't a big, rich club? What does the Premier League say? How about Etihad and Emirates and Adidas?

[Peter]

So if evans had a career away from the public eye it would be ok? The very fact that we will see him get his job back makes it unacceptable?

Remove the public aspect....do sheffield united have any other level of responsibility here?

[Berni]

I think a big, high-profile club wouldn't dare re-employ someone convicted of rape. They'd get crucified for it.

The interesting one, of course, would be if that person were really, really good.

[Peter]

Would you be happy for your son to take that away as the great moral lesson here?

My original point was merely that this case is a poor example. I am more comfortsble embracing the scumbag argument you mentioned. For the i dividual there is a judgement to be made in this situation. The judgement of both of these men was appalling and to me they are equally guilty (based on what i know of the case). The line being drawn is far, far too fine and, for me, it really isnt the basis of consent at all. It is actually a very dangerous example to put in front of young men.

[Berni]

I'm guessing would have no chance of getting them back. Evans' case is different because there are very few good footballers in the world and Sheffield United would very much like to get one on the cheap.

From a business point of view, that's understandable, but like it or not, the public profile of a football club does make this case different, though. As ever, it is not simply what is done that counts, it is what is seen to be done.

[Berni]

I agree that both are pretty reprehensible and would certainly have hoped the other chap had got nick as well. However, he didn't and that is the law and how it works. However, that in no way lessens the importance of what Evans was convicted of and neither does it lessen the importance of making an example of him.

[Peter]

Right and wrong.

I think the thing thst worries me here is thst evans genuinely feels he didnt do anything wrong. He had sex with a drunk girl. Now people are telling him she was too drunk and so he is a rapist.

For him, he is playing the whole thing badly. He is never going to win an appeal. He might want to accept that he can now see that what he did wasnt right and wasnt acceptable, even if eh doesnt see himself as a rapist. That is the lesson for young men- whoever you are you have reonsibilities here, to yourself and to the woman. You are accountable for your judgement and your behaviour. I honestly think that a huge number of men secretly dont think that what he did was rape. Millions will have done something similar themselves.

But it is easier to jump on the media cycle screaming 'rapist' and there will never be a shortage of people eager to get their face on the telly on the right side of a moral issue.

[Peter]

However, when it comes to punishment both appear to be determined by the legal conclusion. The law declares evans a rapist and therefore he suffers not only the legal consequences but also the social stigma and all its side effects- the moral judgement of society's eyes and ears.

The law finds the other chap innocent and he suffers nothing. A free man, back to work.

Something tells me this isnt right.

[redgunamo]

And we all know it won't stop anything.

[Berni]

[Peter]

Its a moral maze, b. the law may be black and white but the rest isn't.

Nor is the law, in this instance. It is simply forced to act as though it is and conclude as though it is. In many respect here the actions of the first guy are worse than the second