They really were remarkably full of pep last night, weren't they?

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Did some of Pep's colleagues in the pharmaceutical industry follow him to Germany?

[Pokster]

dirty German bar stewards

[Brentwood]

[Berni]

If you can't beat 'em, etc.

[redgunamo]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

'I will not say that Arnhem was a defeat. Such men as they can never be defeated. They fought until they had nothing left to fight with - and then fought on.'

[Classic Jorge]

Are you going over there for a family thing? Where in the oud country are your family from, C?

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

My family are from a village just outside Leiden called Oegstgeest. Actually it's all sort of joined up together now. Anyways Leiden is a nice town and it's close to Sceveningen and the Hague, so it's all good. :thumbup:

[Berni]

I honestly mean no disrespect by this. I just can't abide the way that celebrating it as a glorious failure serves to mask the criminally incompetent waste of life that the thing actually was.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-R4v_q4b9wnc/Td9Xs2c2YwI/AAAAAAAAGf4/uJEO2MeKbdA/s1600/captured-british-soldiers-arnhem-1944.jpg

[Classic Jorge]

In fairness, she was way out of my league

[Classic Jorge]

It's all a terrible waste of life

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

There were failings in planning and as the battle progressed, of course, but there was also a degree of bad luck. And the thing wasn't a million miles from succeeding.

Much more importantly, here was a rare example of British troops fighting with all the courage, determination and viciousness of the eastern front. Those chaps seem to me worth remembering, hence my semi-annual pilgrimage.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Liberating Europe from genocidal oppressors was NOT a waste of life.

[Bergkamp's Brain]

[Classic Jorge]

I'm not sure it's all that helpful in terms of stopping it happening again, if anything the mythologising and glorifying of the whole business just funnels further generations towards a glorious demise for a few yards of mud.

[Berni]

I'm just wary of the way such myth-making can obscure truth and even serve to devalue real competence and military excellence (such as that displayed by Slim in Burma, which is largely ignored).

This is a very fair summary of things, I think.

http://www.battlefieldreview.com/Arnhem.asp

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

will immediately make the Bad People lay down their weapons and leave us alone.

Genius.

[Berni]

recognising that that was a fine and worthy thing to do.

[Classic Jorge]

More "never again" than "lest we forget", if you get my point.

[Classic Jorge]

And it should be about stopping it happening again, wasn't that the whole thrust of both wars?

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

And the important point is that the message is, 'Never again - unless we have to; in which case let us hope we're big enough to stand in the shoes of these men'.

On the third Sunday in September the children of Arnhem lay flowers on the graves at Oosterbeek. This isn't a celebratory moment.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2880/9970595785_66ee557538_z.jpg

[Berni]

in human nature. Acknowledging the fact that we were strong enough to stop it last time and that that is a good thing while holding it up as an example to be respected and if necessary followed for subsequent generations is the point.

To be honest, though, we've managed nearly 70 years since a major western European war, which is pretty damn remarkable in historical terms. Mind you, that's largely because we ruined ourselves in human and economic terms in the first half of the 20th century and simply don't have the wherewithal to do it again.

[Classic Jorge]

I've literally no experience of the dutch stuff but over here it gets a little much, some of the stuff on the Fascist BBC for instance.

[Classic Jorge]

[Berni]

Unfortunately, though, both of those things come out of the story of the Second World War with immense credit. It's simply your prejudices that get in the way of you seeing that.

[Berni]

ability to fight their way out of a wet paper bag anymore.

Relative poverty, the Cold War, NATO and the US nuclear umbrella. These are the things that have kept us from one another's throats, j, not f**king Europe.

[Classic Jorge]

[Berni]

Dutchman likes a German any more because of them? No. The nationalities are still firmly in place.

Open borders, trade agreements, etc are just means of doing business. Doesn't mean we like each other any more.

[Classic Jorge]

[Classic Jorge]

[Ashberto]

and cultures does break down barriers and does a little bit make it less likely to 'hate' other countries in the way that petty nationalism used to.

[Berni]

order to defend principles of right and wrong over and above our own more selfish interests. Something to be proud of, I think.

[Berni]

live most closely with people of other cultures, nationalities, etc?

[Classic Jorge]

[Classic Jorge]

[redgunamo]

[Berni]

The Channel has always been an excellent fence, for example.

[Ashberto]

who constantly like to feel theat they are fighting some kind of domestic fascism. What little support they do have is likely to be lumpen proletariate.

Besides, the groups these organisations don't like are not the European neighbours we're talking about, surely.

[Berni]

[Ashberto]

[Berni]

our European brethren. France and Germany have been kicking the **** out of each other for centuries because of their proximity, not in spite of it. The fact that they don't anymore is because they can't.

[Classic Jorge]

like "the greatest empire the world has ever known"

[Berni]

I would also argue that it's morally true as well, but that's a whole other can of worms.

[redgunamo]

[Classic Jorge]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Is it the Lizard People?

[redgunamo]

[Berni]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Berni]

[Classic Jorge]

[redgunamo]

[Berni]

[Classic Jorge]

[Berni]

[Classic Jorge]

Geographically presumably includes Antarctica, which is just silly. You might as well include the Moon for America.

Population is a bit of a red herring measure as the last biggest empire will always win this one due to world population trends.

[Berni]

[Classic Jorge]

[Berni]

the world than any previous Empire. But that aside, here's a league table if you don't believe me. Only the Mongols even come close geographically and in population terms, but a/ that's largely guesswork in terms of numbers and b/ the extent to which you can call the Mongols an empire is historically dubious. Also, the figures for the British Empire don't include all the bits we controlled without actually colonising.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_empires

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Berni]

[Classic Jorge]

I think that table more than backs up my population hypothesis too.

[Berni]

communications, refuelling and trade routes of all enemy nations. Bang. Just like that Germany could not communicate with its overseas empire or trade with anyone at all. That is control of the seas. Not just a song.

Also, I would refer you to the financial table, in which the British Empire dwarfs everyone else. And, as I say, population is a very inexact measure.

All in all, it seems to me that it's your grasp of history that leaves something to be desired, not mine.

[Classic Jorge]

I didn't see the financial table though but it does seem you're discounting all of the empires back from when empires were empires (Minty 2002)

[Berni]

every telegraph station and cable, every coaling station, every neutral port and every trade route - across the globe - being instantly denied to Germany by the Royal Navy.

You might want to try reading up on this stuff. It's pretty clear to me that you're way out of your historical depth here.

Here's the table, btw.



Quote:




British Empire - $918.7 billion (in 1938)[3]
Nazi German Empire - $375.6 billion (in 1938)[3]
Japanese Empire - $260.7 billion (in 1938)[3]
Russian Empire - $257.7 billion (in 1917)[11]
Qing Empire - $241.3 billion (GDP decline to 1912, immediately before its downfall)[11]
French Empire - $234.1 billion (in 1938)[3]
Italian Empire - $143.4 billion (in 1938)[3]
Indian Empire (British Raj) - $134.9 billion (in 1870)[11]
Afsharid Persian Empire - $119.85 billion (in 1740)[11]
Austro-Hungarian Empire - $100.5 billion (in 1918)[57]
Mughal Empire - $90.8 billion (GDP decline in 1700)[11]
Dutch Empire - $60 billion (in 1900)
Ottoman Empire - $26.4 billion (in 1923)[58]
Empire of Brazil - $13.6 billion (in 1889)[57]
Portuguese Empire - $12.6 billion (in 1913)[57]

[Classic Jorge]

Note that, for pretty obvious reasons, all of the classical era empires aren't in that chart.

I'm more of a classical era chap myself

[Berni]

Trouble is, of course, that by 1938 - even with that turnover - the bloody thing was still running at a loss. http://www.awimb.com/images/smiley_icons/ohwell.gif

[Classic Jorge]

Look at the spanish ffs!

[Berni]

before that point. Otherwise, no-one would bother.