Good article by Sam Harris on the Izchhhhael situation

[Monty91]

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-isra el (http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/why-dont-i-criticize-israel)

Not much mention of the auld occupation, mind.

[Berni]

restraint in their fighting against the Palestinians than we—the Americans, or Western Europeans—have used in any of our wars."

Ermmm...I'm calling bull**** on that one. I don't remember any missile strikes on West Belfast or any homes being bulldozed.

[Monty91]

If the Palestians agreed to the same, Israel would cease firing missiles in a split-second (or so Harris is arguing, I think).

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[redgunamo]

I mean, if I rake my kids' tree-house with M16 fire, as I am inclined to do more often than you'd imagine actually, nobody would call my garden a war-zone, would they. In fact, anyone who'd met my children would say Strong, sensible parenting there. Or An acceptable level of violence.

[Berni]

No. The reason we didn't do that is because we as a people take a dim view of conducting all-out war on our fellow citizens - however bolshy they may be.

The Israeli state, on the other hand, is so fundamentally predicated on racism that the ghettoisation, oppression and killing of non-Jews within their own borders doesn't really bother them.

[Berni]

shooting match.

[Berni]

Well, not after the last time they were allowed to. :-(

[Monty91]

IRA as Irael's is.

What do you think Israel should do then?

[Berni]

Israel's existence hasn't realistically been threatened by anyone since 1973. Hamas are an irritant at worst and launching full-scale military assaults achieves absolutely nothing.

What should Israel do? Well it could start by ensuring that Palestinians don't grow up rat poor, ghettoised, oppressed and under constant threat. It could do things like...ooh, let's see...not denying basic amenities and rights to Palestinians. Those things lead to resentment and make radicalisation much easier.

However, that approach would require some long-term thought rather than the knee-jerk, dick-swinging resort to military force that is the imprimatur of almost all Israeli governments.

[Monty91]

as mere bluster?

[Luis Anaconda]

[Berni]

ever likely to happen, does it?

Israel is a modern, industrialised, highly-militarised and (lest we forget) nuclear state. How the fùck are Hamas going to destroy it exactly?

[Monty91]

waiting for her to come out and shouting how much you want to fúck her and how hard you'll do it, then she would be within her rights to at the very least seek a restraining order.

And if she came and punched you in the face, she'd probably be considered to have acted if not exactly proportionally, then with justifiable force.

[Berni]

rubble (whilst killing quite a few children in the process), that would probably be considered a somewhat excessive reaction, no?

[Ashberto]

All it takes is a terrorist capaign to provoke a robust reaction, a massive PR drive with atrocity porn in the west, liberal sympathy in the media, and weak, unpopular governments desperate to look tough to garner some credibility and before you know it ... *boom*. And no sign of redgumano on AWIMB for a few months.

Admittedly, Israel does a sturdy level of support in the West, but I wouldn't rule it out entirely in the long term.

[Berni]

Now, can you help with the whole 'f**king the ginger bird out of Dr Who' thing, at all?