That drag queen on Eurovision. It was quite weird how it looked more like a woman with a beard than

[Billy Goat Sverige]

a man dressed as a women, which is what a drag queen usually looks like.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

He clearly isn't a woman.

[Snin]

[Billy Goat Sverige]

[Billy Goat Sverige]

[Monty91]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

I rather enjoyed the whole thing.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

I object to a national broadcaster acquiescing to such patent insanity.

[Snin]

little fun evening out into more mainstream..must be a london metro sexual thing..still at least its not made it out into the home counties as satisfactory Tv unless one shoves cocks up each others arses

[Billy Goat Sverige]

their eurovision entry. Perhaps they should enter him next year.

http://lollirockstar.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/yohio-green-room_1015622c.jpg

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Snin]

deviant

[Monty91]

sense of self in this simple but important way, then what on earth is the harm?

[Snin]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

and their 'need' to 'integrate' into society.

Chap wishes to dress in a frock, with that I have no issues. Fire away. Fill your boots, and so on. Making him some sort of protected minority is 1) silly and 2) taking attention from the weak* who actually need some help and special status.

*Animals.

[Ashberto]

When I had to venture into the living room to get something I got leered and whistled at something horrid, Snin. Like a load of builders they were. :o

[Billy Goat Sverige]

[Hillary]

[Curly]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Some of them sit, is all.

[Hillary]

[Monty91]

[Ashberto]

[insert some comment here about self, integrating, and your mum]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

that choice does not make them special.

Equal respect for all, regardless of race, gender or sexuality, is all I ask. Unfortunately I have remarkably low tolerance for bull****.

[The Tony]

[redgunamo]

NTTAWWI.

[Ashberto]

[Monty91]

treatment?

I ask again - where is the harm? Do you consider it the thin end of the liberal wedge?

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

It's silly, and it's wrong. He is not a she. 'She' has a specific meaning. He is a he.

If I asked you to refer to me as Elvis you'd think that I was a) mental or b) silly, and you'd let me know, I suspect, rather robustly.

[Hillary]

There's a great deal of difference between a man who enjoys dressing up as a woman and one who wishes to go through surgery to physically become a woman as that is what they consider themselves to be.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Because I happen not to concur precisely with what Owen Jones told you this morning I must be trolling?

[Monty91]

People could still call you Sir Charlie if they really wanted, but who on earth would be so churlish?

[redgunamo]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Curly]

are all weirdos?

[Hillary]

by the fact that you are spouting factual inaccuracies in a way that suggests you're not as intelligent as you generally appear.

How you refer to transgendered people is your business - not knowing the difference between transgender and transvestism is the point I am pulling you up on. It's a matter of fact, not opinion.

[Ashberto]

is your dad.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Words have definitions and definitions are important, aren't they? You can't just change the meaning of 'he', or 'she', because it's more comfortable for a small minority. It might not be ideal for transgenders, but it's hardly pitchforking them into ovens, is it?

I think what I mean really is, if being called he because you're a he is a pain in the arse, tough ****, suck it up, there's plenty worse things to worry about.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Monty91]

Marriage: The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife?

[Berni]

Apparently, sex does not define gender. And the response "Yes it bloody does" is not acceptable.

I said it was comparable to me dressing up in a full Arsenal kit and not only claiming to be a professional footballer, but insisting that everyone else did, too.

[Berni]

co-opted into reinforcing that lie, though. Once we start knowingly accepting lies as the truth we're off to hell in a handjob.

[Berni]

It's a very distressing mental image.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Just make everything up. That'll work well.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Berni]

You're really just messing about if you've still got tackle imo.

[Monty91]

[Camp Freddie]

...their knees so much!

[Monty91]

[Camp Freddie]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

or lifestyle choices (which do not impinge on others). I object to being dictated to by each minority interest.

[Camp Freddie]

[Camp Freddie]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Confusing issues, and forcing changes in language by means of cultural Marxism, irritates me spectacularly.

[Berni]

and sets in the west? These are not principles. These are undeniable, empirically-demonstrable truths. Once we start accepting convenient lies in place of such truths, we are in trouble - that is a principle

The only reason to pretend that a man is a woman is fear of being harangued or browbeaten by those who have a vested interest in signing up to such nonsense.

[Curly]

Not sure what this proves tbh

[Mo Britain less Europe]

[Berni]

It's only very recently we've started being silly enough to pretend that they're significantly different.

Besides, the distinction is far from universal. In ordinary speech, sex and gender are often used interchangeably and some dictionaries and academic disciplines give them different definitions while others do not.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

woman...because I'm not! My wishes don't come into it. He wants to wear a dress? Fine! He wants to have relations with guys? Fine! He wants a sex change? Fine! But let's not fall into the trap of "I want therefore I am". I want to be a billionaire. I'm not.

[Berni]

They didn't get enough screen time, though. I did actually like the Dutch entry.

[Berni]

Everything else is just window dressing and the emperor's new clothes.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

The Dutch entry made me all wistful. On Sunday morning I had to go driving listening to some mellow c&w chosen by Kate Atkinson.

http://www.kateatkinson.co.uk/jacksonbrodie/playlists.asp

[Berni]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Camp Freddie]

of behavioural characteristics associated with, but not exclusively defined by sex. Hence behaviours that seem feminine i.e. wearing make up when you are a man, are 'gender' bending. Short of a sex change you can't bend your sex!

It seems you are sticking rigidly to this because it upsets your world view!

[Camp Freddie]

[Camp Freddie]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

Some would say that operations and hormone treatments can make you Freda - that's a further argument. But putting on a dress and some slap does not make he a she.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

[Camp Freddie]

*racist term removed*, dervish and so on. Many would have said that's what it is at one time!

[Curly]

[Camp Freddie]

[Camp Freddie]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

applied to a male, because this is his choice. I, apparently, have no say in the matter, for I am deemed wrong for suggesting that I do not wish to engage in this falsehood.

[Camp Freddie]

....all objectivity is subject to questions about meaning and agency. Just becomes something is, does not mean you understand it!

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

with your cultural marxism, neither can you force me to go along with it.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

them. I mean in their essence. There are different words for rock and stone but we know what they ultimately mean. And we know what a man is and a woman is. A woman who likes woman isn't a man, she's a woman who fancies women. No need to call her derogatory names because of what she is but no need to invent a non-existent truth either. She is not he. She is she and should be happy with that, with the way she is being considered ok, not having to contort a pronoun for validation. It's the opposite. This Austrian guy, by asking people to refer to him as she (if he is) is saying it isn't ok to be a guy who likes to wear a dress!

[Berni]

The concept of gender as distinct from sex didn't arise until the early 70s, when feminist theory embraced the concept of a distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender for (and this is important) ENTIRELY SELF-SERVING POLITICAL REASONS.

Any time people start trying to tell me black is white for political reasons, I tend to dig my heels in. I think any other approach is unhealthy, craven and slavish.

Oh, and it is precisely because I am an intelligent man capable of thinking for himself that I will not accept such patent nonsense as truth.

And if you would be so good/presumptuous as to define my 'world view' to me, I should be most grateful.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

but it doesn't make it one.

[Camp Freddie]

it cost you emotionally or otherwise. I might want to be called gay, others might like queer, others homosexual. Some people call me a poof, not without a smack in the face I might add, but to be called what i like costs nobody anything.

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

I wouldn't presume to call him anything based on his sexual preferences, for they are no business of mine. But I say again, I will not lie about what he is because he demands it of me. He has no right so to do.

[Camp Freddie]

That would make you a fool. Like somebody telling you that god exists, for example.

[Camp Freddie]

...we all do, in lots of ways. What I'm suggesting is that it's hardly a massive imposition, or an infringement of your rights, to make someone else happy.

[Mo Britain less Europe]

home but your basic tenet that you should be allowed to call yourself whatever you want is fine, that others should have to call you that too is wrong. A person is what he/she is and fortunately we can now even change that. But unless you've changed it he is he and she is she.

[Camp Freddie]

died with Plato. You must inhabit a very black and white world where meaning is always fixed and immutable. But, the merest glance at our own history tells us that isn't so! Identity and recognition are as much a driving force of history as the potentially immutable laws you refer to.

[Berni]

has made it very clear that there is a very short step from it being suggested that it might be nice not to say certain things to being told we can't say them.

When it becomes unacceptable to tell the truth, there is a serious problem. The reason those who seek to oppress always start with language is that they know that if you control language, you control thought. When it becomes unacceptable to call a transgender person 'he' or 'she' (even if that is their correct biological nomenclature) it soon becomes unacceptable to think of them as what they are rather than what they pretend to be.

Surely you must see the inherent dangers in acquiescing in such a position?

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Camp Freddie]

you don't have to accept it, and you don't. I don't pick my friends by virtue of what they think, but because they think!

[Camp Freddie]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

your argument stems from, or at least leads to.

Of course, I have never had a logical, reasoned or imaginative thought in my life, so my opinion counts for very little :thumbup:

[Mo Britain less Europe]

[Camp Freddie]

[Berni]

[Mo Britain less Europe]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

[Camp Freddie]

[Berni]

[Camp Freddie]

[Camp Freddie]