What a fantastic result at the weekend

[R.C. Celebrating the return of Trophies]

There's a breath of freshness running through our great club, a resurgence of hope. Keeping the little we had and infusing it with the audacious (fortunate?) capture of Ozil and the (reluctant?) signing of Flamster :bow: has added some steel to what had become a spineless outfit who used to cave in the face of adversity. A club who would sell sell sell rather than invest in the playing stock for the want of a few grand has finally changed its ways and just look at the difference its made.

The argument now will be 'was this the plan all along' or did the volumes of fans not renewing memberships, and the volume of the discontent of the fans who remained force the issue.

I think a pinch of each, no financial institute will sit by and not respond as a large section of its limited if captured market stops buying into the product. Similarly there is undoubtedly a larger amount of disposable income available as debts are reduced tv money increases and wastrels are removed from the costs.

Whatever the reasons, we now have a team more capable, more determined and more resilient and are reaping the benefits of that on the pitch. And that on pitch improvement will create even more financial success.
Well done the Club imo
Now win something and watch the stock soar even higher.

[Mack]

dry up we are f**ked. Mark my words.

[Monty91]

I wouldn't put my house on a top foir finish, let alone anything more.

Secondly, that was a very long winded way of saying "i was wrong" :)

[R.C. Celebrating the return of Trophies]

only just started having a pop and scoring from outside the box again.
The Drogbaesque bounce-off-the-shin-and-in will come as we get more successful, its how the universe works. Success and ****ness are rewarded like for like in luck and love.

[PSRB]

spurs, Everton and Liverpool all look short of our level. I'd still say City and Chelsea have better squads and I have no idea about United, not really seen any of their games

[Mack]

Well said. No idea what the f**k it means but, well said imo..

[Maravilloso Marvo]

Cazorla ran the show on Saturday and yes he was in the plan all along when we renewed our season tickets.

[Billy Goat Sverige]

Sloppy so far too.

Looking forward to when we play them. Our midfield should run rings around them.

[R.C. Celebrating the return of Trophies]

was I wrong.
I wanted change and the club to invest
I wanted Wenger to be given the chance to change

Both have happened.

I didnt think they would and I think a hugely overdue slice of the lucky cake has been dished up to Ms Wenger but wtf, I'll settle for that.

And you're right. it is early and we are still only just ahead of my budgeted 74 point prediction but by God the difference in how we look and are playing is phenomenal.

[PSRB]

have a very real chance of getting 3 points

[Monty91]

Arteta has obviously been watching flamini and realised what it takes to be a defensive midfielder.

And as for szceisny's improvement - that has the mark of Ozil all over it. Word is that he's been staying behind with him after training to teach him
about handling.

[R.C. Celebrating the return of Trophies]

you ignore in that sentence the massive lift in speeeeerit (sorry :blush:) the combo of not selling and then investin massively has had on the squad.
Just shows that not much was needed after all to make things better than they have been.

[R.C. Celebrating the return of Trophies]

you cant say that sort of thing out loud.

It contravenes the sceptic meg laws of the universe

[Monty91]

reason we didn't sell anyone big this summer is that we had no more big players to sell.

[R.C. Celebrating the return of Trophies]

kinda thought I was more than that :shrug:

as for your point, well we (me and my ilk, if I may own them,) were kinda right, but the benefit of that has been the lack of squad disruption of the negative kind with the associated downer syndrome it carries with it.

[The Tony]

I was thinking over the weekend that we could potentially be sitting in a very exciting position on Christmas Day....if....If we can win the next few games then holy **** wow......United, Chelsea, City, Southampton, Everton....real chance to put serious daylight between us and 2nd place....

[Monty91]

1) for the club's financial landscape to improve to allow wenger to make an ozil style signing (of which there may now be more to come.)

Your childish impatience led to you demanding wenger leaves and now listen to you. You were wrong and we will never let you forget it :)

[LDB.]

and Park left really. The day that I never had to see Denilson, Song, Chamakh or Arshavin in an Arsenal shirt were very happy days indeed.

I hope Wenger has now completely abandoned the idea of blindly throwing massive wages at young players who have proven f**k all. It's both great and scary to think that the money saved on wages on that mob would pay Mesut's wages with some left over. Not a single one of those is fit to wipe his arse.

Mesut :cloud9:

[Witharby 2-3 weeks]

Also better sounding than Moose

[Monty91]

a squad containing not a single player that would interest a big club, plus mesut ozil.

It's almost like the narrative you have created is massively incoherent and flawed :)

[R.C. Celebrating the return of Trophies]

Had us there or thereabouts as we are by now but didn't think we would maintain it through to Jan

Now I'm less worried and more kind of excitedly nervous.
I like the feeling, been a while.

[Witharby 2-3 weeks]

It will end in tears

[Mack]

[PSRB]

[Witharby 2-3 weeks]

[R.C. Celebrating the return of Trophies]

And all it took was for him to listen to the people like me ;-) and (I nearly said spend some faaarkingmoney but he's been doing that badly for about 4 years) buy some better players and get rid of the ****.
Finally!!!
:thumbup: :-D

[Witharby 2-3 weeks]

First time since the time not to be mentioned when we met you in the Lime Bar. Oh dear, I have to go lie down now

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

We always get battered.

[Bergkamp's Brain]

[Sir Charlie of Nicholas]

What news from the Virginia plantations?

[Bergkamp's Brain]

assuming he is fit enough to play.

[Monty91]

in july we'd only sign (albeit world class) attacking midfieldet and flamini on a free you would have continued with your 'wenget out' crusade.

I say this because your ilk has constantly told us the priorities are in other areas and indeed that wenger was profoundly negligent in not focussing on them.

As i say, not quite consistent with your retrospective narrative but then this is more about you saving face than anything else isn't it.

[R.C. Celebrating the return of Trophies]

No, you were wrong.
The clubs finances and financial outlook were never so bad they couldn't make an Ozil style signing at any point in the last 4 years, they chose not to. If they had, we may not have had to lose the quality players that have left the club to chase trophies.
I wanted Wenger to change his approach or leave, he chose to change, makes me right again.You were happy being uncompetetive with him in charge and didn't want change, you were wrong.

What we have now is change and it is good.

[R.C. Celebrating the return of Trophies]

discussing points of debate with total strangers is funny.
I don't really care what anyone on here thinks, I just use it for fun and to amuse myself when work is unappealing.

And for the record (and I'm sure you can check this) I would consider Flamini the answer to the need for dm cover, never relly thought we needed better at the beck just better trainig in that dept (thanks Bouldy) and I still think we need another forward.

I will happily concede both Giroud (who I've never dissed on here) and Ramsey (who I have) have both exceeded expectation.
The only other players that I have had no time for that AW hasn't binned this year are: Bentdner (AW agrees), the Myachi kid and Theo, and in fairness the Theo thing is irrational on my part.

[LDB.]

Absolute bilge that we've only just had the means to sign a player like Ozil.

We've had tens of millions sitting in the bank for some time now and it's not like these fees are paid all upfront, we could have easily accomodated a large transfer fee or two staggered over a few years.

The thing that was holding us back was our massively bloated wage bill which did a great job of setting up **** like Denilson for life but not so great in allowing us the space to add world class players to it. For many years we sacrificed competing at the top end in favour of overpaying for potential.

PS. Allowing the 2008 team to be decimated was Wenger's biggest mistake, set us back years that did.

[R.C. Celebrating the return of Trophies]

2008 was the beginning of the wilderness years.

And it all swung on that Taylor attack on Eduardo, the kids never got over that.

[Monty91]

it must be an odd thing to feel such positivity about a man who for so long you despised, and there must be a certain need to make sense of that in your head which you are doing by retrofitting a convenient but entirely incoherent narrative.

Arsene Wenger was not a man who you simply wanted to make some small adjustments to his philosophy. You considered him to have utterly lost the plot and you wanted him OUT.

Can you at least admit you were wrong to want him out?

[Monty91]

On finances, neither of us know enough to talk with any real certainty, but is it not a strange coincidence that the summer we spent £40+ million (plus break our wage structure) is the summer 1) we signed significantly improved commercial deals 2) we received significantly improved TV money 3) the club were more explicit than ever that we now had enhanced financial firepower?

Oh and you failed to respond to my point about your lack of patience with players who have developed/improved this season.
Bear in mind that of the starting 11 on Saturday, only Cazorla has avoided genuine criticism in recent years.

Do you not think Wenger was right to persevere with these players and that he knew at some point he would be able to augment them with stellar signings like Ozil?

Why do you not think that was the plan?

[LDB.]

commercial deals, would surely have strengthened the club's hand? Gotta spend money to make money and all that.

As far as Wenger goes, I still think he has his weaknesses as a manager. It took him long enough but he's finally found a back 5 worthy of the name but we're still a long way from being one of the best teams in the league without the ball. Chelsea showed that up the other week big time and I think they'll do the same again in the league matches.

However, he does deserve massive credit for sticking with Ramsey and signing and sticking with Koscielny. When Kos was first signed it looked very much like Wenger had lost the plot, although I have never been one to criticise new signings without giving them time and have rated kos for longer than most. More then that however it finally looks like his focus is back on winning, for too many years he was acting like a board member and not a football manager which for all the good work he does was undermining him. Hope it continues.

[R.C. Celebrating the return of Trophies]

t must be an odd thing to feel such positivity about a man who for so long you despised.
The only thing I've ever despised, (and still do,) about Wenger is his attitude to the FA cup

and there must be a certain need to make sense of that in your head which you are doing by retrofitting a convenient but entirely incoherent narrative.
Total piffle and psychobabble I have no such need and am merely commenting on the facts as they are and have been.

Arsene Wenger was not a man who you simply wanted to make some small adjustments to his philosophy. You considered him to have utterly lost the plot and you wanted him OUT.
Can you at least admit you were wrong to want him out?

Can you at least admit he had lost the plot and that our recent change of fortune has coincided with his complete change of philosophy and abondonment of his failed socialist wage structure, his failed approach to overpaying unproven youth and his and the clubs unambitious insistence that fourth place is better than a trophy.
We are now showing greater ambition in all areas of the business and reaping the rewards of the changes me and, God bless them all, my ilk were demanding.

All I ever shouted for was change, change of philosophy, ambition, and direction and was prepared to have him go if necessary to get that.

I've got what I wanted without his leaving and you seem to be enjoying it too. I'm also very happy he has made the changes required for us to be better than we have been because it would have been tragic given his early achievements and everything else he brought to our club for him to leave under the cloud of continued failure to compete (I can live with not winning, I couldn't abide us being so feeble).

[Monty91]

about the nuances of our finances, regardless of the figures made publically available.

And that was before you embarrassed yourself by trying to talk about technical and tactical issues.

That's the problem with you and your AST ilk. Geeky, bespectacled, middle aged men with a paunch just about sound credible when they are talking about the business aspects of the club, but as soon as they start talking about anything football related, it all becomes rather cringeworthy.

[Monty91]

Who will you blame, given that the club is now being run in precisely the manner you have demanded? *snigger*

Bear in mind that five or six games into last season (after drawing at City) we were being tentatively talked of as contenders.

[LDB.]

So you disagree that we still have problems playing without the ball?

I'm 23 btw.

[Monty91]

Chelsea could just as well say they aren't as good as us with the ball.

One question: in one breath you say Wenger pissed all our money away on wages for Denilson et al, and in the next you say we have had millions sitting in the bank for years. Which one is it?

Do you genuinely think Wenger has refused to buy elite world class players out of sheer principle and that he hasn't been restricted to buying a certain category of player (i.e. second or third tier players like cazorla)?

[R.C. Celebrating the return of Trophies]

n finances, neither of us know enough to talk with any real certainty, but is it not a strange coincidence that the summer we spent £40+ million (plus break our wage structure) is the summer 1) we signed significantly improved commercial deals 2) we received significantly improved TV money 3) the club were more explicit than ever that we now had enhanced financial firepower?
No, not at all strange but the club have been very explicit we've always had money to spend and have said so preceeding membership renewal time each year. Any institution could also have foreseen the first 2 points and borrowed against them very easily allowing these improvements in playing staff to occur sooner and perhaps also keeping the services of the player who won utd the title last year (altho I'm a bit meh about that bit)A more succesful on the pitch club are also very much stronger in bargaining power with advertisers/sponsers and get even better deals and more money which undermines your argument even more.


Oh and you failed to respond to my point about your lack of patience with players who have developed/improved this season.
Bear in mind that of the starting 11 on Saturday, only Cazorla has avoided genuine criticism in recent years.

Of the 11 that started on Sunday I've only ever critisised Ramsey and not even you or Wenger foresaw his impact this season.

Do you not think Wenger was right to persevere with these players and that he knew at some point he would be able to augment them with stellar signings like Ozil?
Had he not shat away so much money and talent in the past he could have been augmenting players like RvP, Nasri, Fabregas, Clichy, with signings like Ozil and possibly better.

Why do you not think that was the plan?
Because the coincidence of it happening as the well of fan s renewing and good will was drying up is too great to ignore.

[R.C. Celebrating the return of Trophies]

you obviously have no answers to my points and are having to create 'whatifs' to continue.
Laters

[Monty91]

you wouldn't have ended up with egg on your face.

You know, like "what if we trust Wenger's judgement on players like Ramsey and Giroud and then wait for the club's finances to improve and maybe he will be able to make us contenders again?".

[LDB.]

Monty91 wrote on Mon, 04 November 2013 10:37



Chelsea could just as well say they aren't as good as us with the ball.

One question: in one breath you say Wenger pissed all our money away on wages for Denilson et al, and in the next you say we have had millions sitting in the bank for years. Which one is it?

Do you genuinely think Wenger has refused to buy elite world class players out of sheer principle and that he hasn't been restricted to buying a certain category of player (i.e. second or third tier players like cazorla)?





That was two questions at least :hehe:

Chelsea fans might well think that but in our case it is a shortcoming that Wenger teams have had for nearly a decade. When fatigue starts setting in and we have to grind out results in feburary/march we will see just how we've come in this regard. Unfortunately the teams that defend the best tend to win the league and for all our improvements I don't think we're quite good enough.

I think it is very sensible that the club runs its wage bill in close relation to its income, contracts are medium-long term commitments and imo it is very important that the club does not overdo its wage bill. Transfer fees on the other hand are one off purchases so having a fat lump sum in the bank should be used for this. Like how any sensible person doesn't use savings to pay for basic costs of living if they can avoid it.

I think he agreed to try to win without spending any money while we moved stadium but took it too far and was too reluctant to put pressure on the board to loosen the purestrings. The board was wrong to redevelop Highbury rather then getting a lump sum off property developers. That put us in a lot of debt for little if any return, although it's easy to criticise a decision made pre-financial crash.

[redgunamo]

trophies don't matter now. The feel-good factor you describe is far more important, going forward.

[Monty91]

"I think he agreed to try to win without spending any money while we moved stadium but took it too far and was too reluctant to put pressure on the board to loosen the purestrings."

To confidently form that view you must know a lot more than your average punter. Are you well connected to people within the club? The alternative, of course, is that you're just making **** up.

So to summarise, you believe that the club has had millions sitting in the bank unused (enough to more than double our transfer record and break our wage structure) and that, for reasons unexplained, asked Wenger if he would be willing to not spend any of it for several years and Wenger, presumably knowing his reputation would rapidly deteriorate in the process, agreed.

Really?

[redgunamo]

not spending so much, keeping the books balanced and a' that.

He is certainly smart enough to know that if He would've spent alot more, then we wouldn't actually have needed Him anymore.

If you follow.

[R.C. Celebrating the return of Trophies]

you on the other hand are a complete omelette head.

You think you've been proven right by recent events and can't see the complete and total abandonment of the previous paradigm, and spending/wage policy that, btw, you didn't want changed, have left you totally drenched in ovum juice.

You were ok with things the way they were. You didn't want change

I wasn't ok with the way things were. I wanted change.

Things have changed and things are now better.

You were wrong.

I was right.

What if you can just accept that and get on with your life.

[LDB.]

the football manager suggesting, through both his words and actions, otherwise? Once Wenger started project youth he probably wanted to see it through for longer then he needed to. Heck, the rumours around the Suarez bid were that it was the board that 'forced' the bid on Wenger. Likewise on deadline day the Sky reporter kept emhasising that it was Gazidis and Kroenke's determination that was driving the Ozil deal to completion.

The board probably stockpiled the cash incase of the property venture going tits up but the point im making is that the football manager should have been pressuring the money men to spend some f**king money. Feel free to read this anywhich way you like though, I'm sure you will :hehe:

You're right in one way though, I don't have any ITK *******s, I'm just making logical inferences from what I've seen, heard and read - I didn't realise the burden of proof was so high around here. :judge:

[LDB.]

R.C. Celebrating the return of the Clock End wrote on Mon, 04 November 2013 11:33



you on the other hand are a complete omelette head.

You think you've been proven right by recent events and can't see the complete and total abandonment of the previous paradigm, and spending/wage policy that, btw, you didn't want changed, have left you totally drenched in ovum juice.

You were ok with things the way they were. You didn't want change

I wasn't ok with the way things were. I wanted change.

Things have changed and things are now better.

You were wrong.

I was right.

What if you can just accept that and get on with your life.






Not only that, it was us fans who weren't happy with the way things are that went at least some way to changing things. The people who just blindly worshipped at AW's feet regardless of what he was doing did f**k all to bring about this change.

Well done us :bow:

[Monty91]

I was ok with the way things were in anticipation of, one day soon, being able to spend more money on players.

If someone had told me that in 5 or 10 years time we still wouldn't be investing more money in the squad, I would have been asking major questions myself.

But I always assumed that at some point the increased revenue and the ability to renegotiate our commercial deals that we got a little bit stung by due to needing the upfront cash would put us in a stronger financial position.

And there's no-one else I wanted in charge when that time came more than Arsene Wenger.

You, however, wanted him out. You didn't just want him to change, you wanted him OUT.

Funny how you keep avoiding that fact and instead talk only about wanting a change in policy :)